[quote]forlife wrote:
Yes. Laws don’t need self-awareness to govern how the universe works.[/quote]
And that’s an intellegence?
I put “intelligence” in quotes, and qualified the term with the phrase “if you want to call it that”. I think you get the point. Natural laws provide order, direction, and guidance to the universe without needing to be self-aware.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I put “intelligence” in quotes, and qualified the term with the phrase “if you want to call it that”. I think you get the point. Natural laws provide order, direction, and guidance to the universe without needing to be self-aware.[/quote]
I don’t get the point. Say what you mean. It’s either an intelligence, or it isn’t.
I said exactly what I mean. The universe doesn’t need a god in order to organize, direct, or guide the matter and energy within it.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I said exactly what I mean. The universe doesn’t need a god in order to create, destroy, order, direct, or guide the matter and energy within it.[/quote]
Than why are you stretching the definition of intelligence to something you state exists without any intelligence? And, I think you should relabel yourself to atheist. If an intelligence has no part in any of this, at any point in the existence (or pre-existence) of the cosmos…there’s your answer. The universe is actually dumb. Your “created” (by dumb and cold laws) intelligence/self aware hardware rots, and you’re gone for good.
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Creator, the unmoved mover or uncaused-cause. Anything less is not God and any other definition is less.
By that definition, the Universe itself is god.[/quote]
No, by definition the universe could not be God himself. An uncaused-cause cannot itself be caused and hence cannot be subject to the laws of cause and effect. God necessarily has to exist outside the causal chain…We’ve been over this…
I’m addressing your argument that the universe require an intelligent creator in order to exist. It doesn’t. The phenomena observed in the universe are explainable through the natural laws of the universe, without needing to concoct a magical being in exactly the same way the Romans, the Greeks, and every other civilization has done to explain things we don’t fully understand at the time.
I think it’s possible that there is an intelligent superbeing out there somewhere, I just see no evidence for it at the present time, nor do I think it is necessary for such a being to exist in order for the universe to operate as it does.
[quote]pat wrote:
No, by definition the universe could not be God himself. An uncaused-cause cannot itself be caused and hence cannot be subject to the laws of cause and effect. God necessarily has to exist outside the causal chain…We’ve been over this…[/quote]
If the universe has always existed, it is by definition an uncaused cause.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I’m addressing your argument that the universe require an intelligent creator in order to exist. It doesn’t. The phenomena observed in the universe are explainable through the natural laws of the universe, without needing to concoct a magical being in exactly the same way the Romans, the Greeks, and every other civilization has done to explain things we don’t fully understand at the time.
I think it’s possible that there is an intelligent superbeing out there somewhere, I just see no evidence for it at the present time, nor do I think it is necessary for such a being to exist in order for the universe to operate as it does.[/quote]
If it’s not necessary at any point, than why do you say it’s even possible? It’s like you’re afraid of being an atheist. Is it the dying part? Meh, if we simply go by dumb, cold, hard, natural laws, it’s not like you’ll be aware that you’ll never have another thought. You’re gone.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Creator would imply intelligence.
Things get created and destroyed all the time in the natural universe, without the need for intelligence. The “intelligence”, if you want to call it that, is in the laws themselves which define how the universe works.
Evolution is a type of “intelligence”, for example. It produces increasingly superior species without any need whatsoever for cognition or self-awareness.[/quote]
No evolution is just a series of causal events, not an intelligence. Intelligence infers an act of will which evolution on it’s own is not capable of.
Life is the only thing in the universe capable of will.
Because dude, it’s simple logic. That something is possible doesn’t imply that it is necessary. It only implies that it is one among potentially other possible explanations.
It’s possible that there is a god(s), and it’s also possible that there isn’t a god(s). We simply don’t know enough at the present time to make a definitive statement either way.
I’ve tried not to let my desires dictate whether or not I believe something is true. I would love to believe that there is a benevolent superbeing watching over my life, and that I will be with my loved ones after I die. But I can’t say that I actually believe that, without having some kind of evidence to support that belief. It’s entirely possible, and I would say even probable, that when I die my world will end forever. Nobody likes to admit that, but honesty requires me to do so.
[quote]pat wrote:
No evolution is just a series of causal events, not an intelligence. Intelligence infers an act of will which evolution on it’s own is not capable of.
Life is the only thing in the universe capable of will. [/quote]
Which is why I put the word in quotes. Again, the point is that the universe doesn’t require an intelligent superbeing in order to explain observable phenomena. Natural laws accomplish that just fine.
[quote]pat wrote:
ephrem wrote:
pat wrote: No, incorrect. The question is does God exist, period.
…define “God”?
Creator, the unmoved mover or uncaused-cause. Anything less is not God and any other definition is less.[/quote]
…i can live with that definition…
[quote]Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
forlife wrote:
…well, let me just go ahead here and say it: The god of Abraham does not exist. This god is a antropomorphic collage of bronze age myth, fear, tribal prejudice, ignorance and mysoginy all rolled into one. Does not mean that there couldn’t be a creating force, just that the goatherder’s god is a fantasy…
You’ve gone from an uncertainty concerning the existence–or non-existence–of a creating force, to making a claim about it’s nature. Or, what it’s nature isn’t.
…if there is a creating force, nothing can be said about it’s nature. What can be said about figments of the imagination, like the god of Abraham, is a different matter…
Can’t say anything about it’s nature…but damn sure can’t be the god of Abraham. Well, that makes sense.
…it does actually. You’d have no problem denying the existence of the Invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster being the creator of ALL, right? 'Cause that would be ridiculous…
Of course I’d deny him. After all, I’m not the one claiming agnosticism here.[/quote]
…cool. Now substitute your belief in the christian god [assuming you are a believer] for absence of religious beliefs and we’re on the same page…
[quote]forlife wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…we are here, aren’t we? I’m content with the mystery staying the mystery, because i think that’s something we all can agree on: life itself is a mystery…
I’ve learned to be more comfortable with ambiguity, but I still want to know the answers.[/quote]
…i don’t think that some questions have an answer though [except for believing certain answers ofcourse]…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Sloth wrote:
ephrem wrote:
forlife wrote:
…well, let me just go ahead here and say it: The god of Abraham does not exist. This god is a antropomorphic collage of bronze age myth, fear, tribal prejudice, ignorance and mysoginy all rolled into one. Does not mean that there couldn’t be a creating force, just that the goatherder’s god is a fantasy…
You’ve gone from an uncertainty concerning the existence–or non-existence–of a creating force, to making a claim about it’s nature. Or, what it’s nature isn’t.
…if there is a creating force, nothing can be said about it’s nature. What can be said about figments of the imagination, like the god of Abraham, is a different matter…
Can’t say anything about it’s nature…but damn sure can’t be the god of Abraham. Well, that makes sense.
…it does actually. You’d have no problem denying the existence of the Invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster being the creator of ALL, right? 'Cause that would be ridiculous…
Of course I’d deny him. After all, I’m not the one claiming agnosticism here.
…cool. Now substitute your belief in the christian god [assuming you are a believer] for absence of religious beliefs and we’re on the same page…
[/quote]
Eh? Maybe I’m mistaken, and you’re not an agnostic, but an atheist? An agnostic can’t deny that there is a spaghetti monster, creator of all things. He could say, “highly improbable, but I can’t prove that there isn’t an omnipotent spaghetti monster. Therefore, I must entertain the, however unlikely, of a spaghetti monster god.”
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Interestingly though, if you ask pretty much any non Christian (be they atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, etc…) what they think of Jesus the person they pretty much only have good things to say. It’s pretty tough to dislike someone who was honest, integral, understanding, intelligent, peaceful, loving/caring, strong/brave, generous, non-judgemental, forgiving, and willing to pay the ultimate price for what he believed in.
Exactly. If Jesus was a real person, I have nothing but respect for the guy. If people actually took the time to read and live what he taught, the world would be a better place. Unfortunately, some of the world’s worst atrocities have been committed in the name of Jesus. [/quote]
That’s because people pervert the word of God and go forth with a false meaning committing all sorts of atrocities and perversions.
That’s also why it clearly states in the Bible:
Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, 'Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.â?? 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’
Gods word is not to be trifled with and those who do will ultimately pay a very heavy price.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
…i don’t think that some questions have an answer though [except for believing certain answers ofcourse]…
[/quote]
The origin of the universe is an objective question with an objective answer. Either a magical superbeing created it, or it has always existed, or something else we haven’t thought of yet is the real explanation, but there is a real explanation. We just don’t know what it is yet.
Does this spaghetti monster cause the insulin spikes that are keeping me from my ideal body? Damn spaghetti monster. But his will is not my own, and he has a plan.
[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
No evolution is just a series of causal events, not an intelligence. Intelligence infers an act of will which evolution on it’s own is not capable of.
Life is the only thing in the universe capable of will.
Which is why I put the word in quotes. Again, the point is that the universe doesn’t require an intelligent superbeing in order to explain observable phenomena. Natural laws accomplish that just fine.[/quote]
There’s more to the universe then observable phenomenon.
All things in the universe, finite or infinite have origin, until you find that which has no origin, then the “God problem” will always exist.
Something does not come from nothing, never has, never will.