Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

Hmmm. One example in the brain just for you.

Nice study exploring peripheral E2 vs brain levels.

In Men, Peripheral Estradiol Levels Directly Reflect the Action of Estrogens at the Hypothalamo-Pituitary Level to Inhibit Gonadotropin Secretion

What conclusions do the author’s draw? E2 may be mainly a peripheral aromatase product in men but that doesnt mean serum levels dont reflect approximate tissue levels.

Conclusions: Local aromatization of testosterone in the hypothalamo-pituitary compartment is not a prerequisite for expression of the inhibitory action of estrogens on gonadotropin secretion in men. Peripheral estradiol levels directly reflect the inhibitory tone exerted by estrogens on gonadotropin release and are a major determinant of peripheral testosterone, LH, and FSH levels.

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In other words e2 in serum matters for the HPTa negative feedback loop and is worth checking

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Inhibition of luteinizing hormone secretion by testosterone in men requires aromatization for its pituitary but not its hypothalamic effects: evidence from the tandem study of normal and gonadotropin-releasing hormone-deficient men

The demonstration in this study that circulating E2 can modify GnRH secretion in the presence of castrate T levels (the major substrate for central aromatase activity) provides indirect evidence that estrogen effects at the hypothalamus are not dependent on central aromatization. Two recent studies also support this hypothesis. The first takes advantage of an experiment of nature, namely men with congenital aromatase deficiency. In this unique human model of both peripheral and central estrogen deficiency, normalization of E2 levels with transdermal estrogen reduces LH pulse frequency, LH pulse amplitude, and GnRH-stimulated LH secretion [23]. These data provide evidence not only for dual sites of E2 negative feedback but also highlight the importance of circulating, as opposed to locally generated, estrogen in mediating this effect. One could argue that this genetic model has the limitation that congenital estrogen deficiency may have interfered with maturation of the hypothalamic-pituitary gonadal axis. However, using a clever experimental paradigm, Raven et al. [33] examined the importance of circulating vs. centrally generated estrogens in healthy adult males by first suppressing aromatase activity with letrozole and then restoring physiological E2 levels with transdermal estrogen. Data from this experimental model confirm that restoring physiological concentrations of circulating E2 can normalize gonadotropin secretion in men receiving an aromatase inhibitor. These data therefore argue against proposed models of gonadotropin feedback, which emphasize a greater role for in situ estrogen formation within the brain than for circulating E2 concentrations in regulating LH secretion (
> [3].

This human investigative model employing sex steroid ablation and selective physiological sex steroid add-back in healthy and GnRH-deficient men provides novel insights into the study of LH regulation in men. These data suggest a model of sex steroid feedback whereby 1) T and E2 have independent effects on LH secretion, 2) inhibition of LH by T requires aromatization for its pituitary but not its hypothalamic effects, and 3) E2 has dual sites of feedback, but its predominant effect is at the hypothalamus.

Regarding the brain and paracrine only nature of E2…
Science 2
@Carma / @enackers 0

ED and elevated E2? Dont read this review:

This is as good as i can do with my limited posting access and functionality. Happy reading!

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I mean, the same could be said about a lot of hormones, but we do this with SSRIs, Amphetamines, and TRT :man_shrugging:

So I’m going to play devil’s advocate here, but only for clarification on what you’re saying. I already microdose (granted, I just started TRT about 2 weeks ago) - if I start having high e2 symptoms while microdosing… You’re saying NOT to artificially lower E, even if I start developing gyno? I hate to go into ‘what ifs’, but what if my TRT dose isn’t enough to relieve low T symptoms and I’m getting high E symptoms while microdosing?

I just don’t know if I agree with not down-regulating E if it’s needed. I’m also not claiming that people should run to AI as soon as they start TRT either; simply that it makes sense to incorporate AIs ** only if** high e2 symptoms become present, and to use as little as needed to resolve the symptoms.

Peripheral estradiol levels have no effect when a man is on testosterone level on the HPT Access. When are you gonna ever understand the difference between an observational study and an interventional study. Also not talking about negative feedback loops were talking about the beneficial effects at the tissue level. Man you really don’t understand clinical medicine you can only read an article. Everyone knows the negative feedback loop with estradiol on the HPT access I mean that’s how we treat men who have prostate cancer with estradiol. You are missing the bigger picture as usual. When men are given testosterone we no longer produce estradiol from the gonads for instance. So all the measured estradiol is literally from the testosterone one is taking. It exerts its affects on the tissue level by being converted to estradiol or DHT. Surely you understand testosterone is a prohormone right? I mean you do understand that right? Do you understand what a pro hormone is right? So when we measure serum estradiol which is what is produce peripherally from testosterone and then try to block that with an aromatase inhibitor what happens as we actually block the beneficial effects of testosterone in the tissues. That which is produce preferably is not having an effect at the tissue level. You cannot understand the difference between observations and interventional actions. Focus on giving men testosterone and the physiology behind that not what occurs in men not taking testosterone.

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OMG. You really don’t know what you don’t know do you? Come on provide us with a study that raising hematocrit with testosterone has been dangerous. LOL on the study that you just posted there which has nothing to do with testosterone and hematocrit. Where in the study were they given testosterone? It was an experimental study that had nothing to do with testosterone. In the video with J Campbell he addresses everything you’ve been wanting. He addresses the positive text testosterone house on vascular reactivity and he also explains in detail what happens with testosterone with regard to hematocrit and viscosity. My God you have to dig deep to try to support your wrong assertions. It looks like in the video up there he explained in detail hematocrit and viscosity that you have been asking for. Please provide us with a study that shows testosterone causes any harm even win hematocrit is raised. Surely you can do this because testosterone has only been used for 85 years. It should be very easy for you. Blood it’s not a Newtonian fluid. How come the men in Bolivia or any country where they’re living above 2500 m are not dying of major adverse cardiac events or having blood clots? Look your idea that it could be dangerous was good in theory and it’s been tested over and over and over again. What we see in laboratory experiments have not equate it to what we see in real men taking testosterone. I’m not gonna respond to you ever again until you provide one study to support what you are fear mongering about. Come on last time produce it or shut up. It’s been used for 85 years and abused for decades by men and still nothing bad has happened. You keep saying it might but your equivalent of mine is just like saying there might be a man on Mars and there might be a man on the moon. We can keep thinking that but there’s not. You are a world is flat person. You refuse to look at the entirety of the medical literature and understand that the world is not flat just like testosterone doesn’t cause heart attacks strokes or blood clots even when you raise hematocrit just like the people that live at high altitude. So you wanna point out one little study where there’s no harm caused. Let’s take your study and then let’s give me on testosterone and see what happens. Oh wait a minute, we have already done that study thousands of times and guess what raising hematocrit with testosterone hasn’t caused any harm. Guess what? All these men on forums that are trying to manage their hematocrit are not actually managing their hematocrit. They’re hematocrit goes right back up after their donation so it is a false sense of security but guess what nothing bad has happened.

So one last time we don’t care about rodents, we don’t care about in vivo experiments, what we care about is men on testosterone and the most common side effect is a secondary erytrrocytosis. Last time, are you going to post an actual study where raising hematocrit with testosterone was dangerous? You focus on hematocrit and viscosity only and he addressed those issues specifically in the video as well as the other positive effects from testosterone. This is why you’ve never seen any harm exactly what he is pointing out. This is why you will not be able to produce any study or testosterone and raising hematocrit were dangerous. It’s a myth that men like you continue to propagate based on no data to support it in men on testosterone. You are a complete waste of anyone’s time. Can you also address the 90 million people that have a secondary erythrocytosis and that live at altitude. Lastly at the androgen society meeting where the worlds top researchers and physicians discuss this very topic just a couple of months ago and the consensus was that the increase in hematocrit from testosterone does not cause harm. Let me repeat that that was said out loud. What you were trying to do is somehow be ahead of a curve that you are light years behind, but you just don’t know it.
We will all be waiting anxiously for your study in men on testosterone and raising hematocrit where it was harmful. Until then you’re just a waste of time.

Two examples for you:

N=1 (case report):

  1. Cervi A, Balitsky AK. Testosterone use causing erythrocytosis. CMAJ. 2017;189(41):E1286-E1288. doi:10.1503/cmaj.170683

June 2022…some of your Urology peers don’t seem to agree with you:

  1. Kaplan-Marans, Elie. “Secondary Polycythemia in Men Receiving Testosterone Therapy Increases Risk of Major Adverse Cardiovascular Events and Venous Thromboembolism in the First Year of Therapy. Letter.” The Journal of Urology (2022): 10-1097.​

https://www.auajournals.org/doi/10.1097/JU.0000000000002437

Short video recap (5 min)

Materials and Methods:

Using a multi-institutional database of 74 million patients, we identified 2 cohorts of men with low testosterone (total testosterone <350 ng/dl) who received TT and subsequently either developed polycythemia (5,887) or did not (4,2784). Polycythemia was defined as hematocrit ≥52%. As a secondary objective, we identified 2 cohorts of hypogonadal men without polycythemia, who either did (26,880) or did not (27,430) receive TT. Our primary outcome was the incidence of MACE and VTE in the first year after starting TT. We conducted a Kaplan-Meier survival analysis to assess differences in MACE and VTE survival time, and measured associations following propensity score matching.

DISCUSSION

Whether or not exogenous testosterone causes MACE or VTE is actively debated, with different evidence showing that TT is either protective, neutral or dangerous for cardiovascular or thrombotic outcomes.19 It is possible that a concurrent, independent risk factor may be driving these adverse events. Whether or not secondary polycythemia may be driving this potential risk has never been evaluated in a population of men using TT. Understanding the factors that may cause MACE or VTE in men on TT is critical to understand, not only for patient and prescribers but for future trial designs investigating this association.

We demonstrated that developing secondary polycythemia while receiving TT, defined as a hematocrit over 52%, was associated with increased risk of developing MACE and VTE during the first year of therapy. TT itself, in the absence of polycythemia, did not appear to increase risk of MACE/VTE in hypogonadal men. To our knowledge, this is the first study to establish secondary polycythemia from TT as an independent risk factor for MACE/VTE using a specific hematocrit-based cutoff.

We used a large national database to answer this question, hypothesizing that real-world data would be best suited to address this issue. Men with high baseline hematocrit are often excluded from randomized trials, and in clinical practice pre-treatment blood work is often not done, and guidelines are frequently not followed.20,21 This leaves a large population of men using TT who are not represented by RCTs. Our findings are somewhat supported by prior literature. The TOM (Testosterone in Older Men with Sarcopenia) trial, an RCT that was stopped early due to increased risk of cardiovascular adverse events, included older men with a high incidence of comorbid conditions.22 While this trial only included 209 men, their demographic information is similar in nature to our study, which included a large proportion of men with comorbid conditions. Like most RCTs on testosterone, the TOM trial did not report hematocrit values in those men with cardiovascular events. One systematic review on this topic did not find overall increased cardiovascular risk, however they did find an increased event rate in the first 12 months of therapy, supporting our window of 1 year for evaluation of MACE/VTE.23 Another review reinforced the value of using large databases in answering this question, highlighting that all published RCTs on this topic are underpowered to assess any association with treatment and cardiovascular outcomes.24 This will hopefully be addressed by the TRAVERSE (Testosterone Replacement Therapy for Assessment of Long-term Vascular Events and Efficacy ResponSE in Hypogonadal Men) trial (NCT03518034), however polycythemia or hematocrit-based adverse events are not listed as an outcome.

It is well established that TT increases the risk of secondary polycythemia,25 with higher rates in longer-acting modalities and lower rates in shorter-acting modalities.16 Multiple national guidelines use elevation in hematocrit as a trigger to stop or change TT in men. TT cessation triggers include 55% from Canadian guidelines,9 54% from endocrine society guidelines and European urology guidelines,5,26 and between 50%–54% from American urological guidelines.10 While the rationale for these cutoffs is not cited in these guidelines, they appear to come from the Framingham heart study, which found an increase in adverse cardiovascular outcomes with a hematocrit of 49% or higher.8 These findings were confirmed in a more recent prospective cohort study, which found an increased rate of overall and cardiovascular-related mortality once hematocrit entered the range of 50%–54%.27 Neither of these studies specifically studied men on testosterone, and thus the currently existing hematocrit cutoffs amongst TT users is arbitrary. For the purposes of our study, we chose a cutoff of 52%, reflecting other published literature, and to ensure a relatively large comparator arm.10,16

The strengths of this study include its use of a large multi-institutional database and being a real-world snapshot of the effects of TT in a U.S. cohort. There is increasing evidence that nonrandomized evidence from large databases can accurately emulate a large-scale RCT, lending validity to these results.28 Detailed propensity-score matching increased the validity of our findings. Lastly, our sensitivity analyses, and analysis of TT-naïve men, support the role of polycythemia as an independent, critical factor in the development of MACE/VTE.

Limitations include the inability to segregate results by type of testosterone prescription. In addition, a large percentage of the men included are Caucasian (86%), and the matched populations have a relatively high comorbidity index, limiting the generalizability of the findings to minorities and healthy individuals. Furthermore, we were not able to match the 2 groups by baseline hematocrit, as the men in the polycythemia group had a higher baseline hematocrit. Therefore, we cannot definitively determine whether the increased risk of MACE/VTE is due to hematocrit reaching 52% or due to men with higher baseline hematocrit starting TT. Regardless, the baseline hematocrit in the polycythemia group was 47.4%, which according to U.S., Canadian and European guidelines does not warrant further investigation before starting TT. Lastly, due to the limitations of the TriNetX database, we were unable to analyze hematocrit as a continuous variable.

Regardless of these limitations, this study lends prescribers a practical approach to informing about risks of TT, and reinforces existing guideline practices of checking hematocrit prior to prescribing.5 It also provides a hematocrit-based cutoff that comes directly from a population of men using TT, and can hopefully allow future guideline statements to remain consistent across recommendations. Future studies that aim to assess cardiovascular outcomes in men on testosterone (such as the ongoing TRAVERSE study, NCT03518034) should perform detailed analysis on hematocrit change to investigate this as a possible association.
CONCLUSION

Men using TT should be aware that they are at a higher risk for MACE/VTE if their hematocrit reaches or exceeds 52% during the first year of therapy. This is especially relevant in men with cardiovascular comorbidities. Hematocrit-based cutoffs should be incorporated into the outcomes of future RCTs investigating MACE/VTE and TT.

@Carma …will we be seeing an update / correction to the recent podcast? Maybe you can review the two references above on a podcast with Jay?

FYI @TC_Luoma in case you haven’t seen this.

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False as demonstrated by studies I posted above.

Both studies above are interventional studies.

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Low T males:

Raising their E2 benefited them with their libido, but the paper doesn’t state the ranges of levels it was raised to.

Then normal T level males:

Role of estradiol in eugonadal men. While estradiol has been shown to have a positive effect on libido at low levels of testosterone, a limited number of studies have looked into the effect of estradiol supplementation in eugonadal men and reported conflicting results. One study with continuous estradiol administration in men who had normal testosterone levels showed decreases in sexual interest, fantasy, masturbation, and erections.11 In contrast, a randomized, double-blind study conducted on 50 men ages between 20 and 40 years demonstrated that sexual activity was unaffected.12

Didn’t do anything or even possibly made things worse.

Then we got guys on TRT:

In 2013, Finkelstein et al . looked at the effects of testosterone and estrogen on male sexual function. They found that the administration of testosterone with and without aromatase inhibitors markedly impaired sexual function when aromatization was inhibited.18 In addition, a study by Ramasamy et al . in 2014 showed that libido was increased in men receiving TST when testosterone levels were >300 ng dl-1 and estradiol levels were >5 ng dl-1. Most compelling is the fact that in men with serum testosterone <300 ng dl-1, sexual drive was seen to be markedly higher when estradiol levels were >5 ng dl-1.19 In addition, when patients with low testosterone were treated with letrozole, a potent aromatase inhibitor, libido was decreased, suggesting that complete elimination of estradiol and decreasing the T/E ratio too severely, adversely affects sexual desire in men.20 These studies provide evidence that both estrogen and testosterone are necessary for normal libido in testosterone-deficient men.

Does anyone have access to the full articles to those 2 references in men on TRT? The 18 and 19 ones. Because all its saying is E2 > 5, IE do not crash E2 and have some of it. It also states complete elimination of E2 AND decreasing the T/E ratio too severely, affected the sexual desire. So don’t crash E2 and don’t raise it to a point either depending on T levels, in other words there is a cut off for the E2 level and its benefits.

Can we please come together here and say “we are all different”, some can get away with higher E2 while some cannot, moral of the story is DO NOT CRASH E2!

Very interesting read about ED and the role E2 plays there, especially the bit about venous leak. It clearly affects some men in a very negative way in this department. Its kind of inconsistent mentioning exogoneous E2 many times and rat studies, but the venous leak part I would love to see more research there.

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Do you believe high blood pressure is dangerous?

If so, do you believe elevated hematocrit can be a contributing or causing factor of high blood pressure?

I believe the answer to both of these questions is yes, and therefore high hematocrit from TRT should be considered dangerous.

Are you asserting that something from the testosterone administration makes having high BP less / not dangerous?

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Also by saying what you are saying are you then leaving the door open that while someone has a serum E2 of 60 and feels fine it can be due to his inner tissue E2 is fine, while someone has a serum E2 of say 35 feels like utter crap because his inner tissue E2 is unbearable??? Are you saying then it’s really not that crazy why some guys can tolerate the E2 of 60 while other guys have all sorts of high E2 symptoms with “only” a level of 35? In fact that guy is not so crazy when he takes his AI and feels better, well because it’s working mainly in the tissues and now he feels better because his inner tissue E2 is in check even though his serum E2 was only 35 before hand!?

Let’s play this what if hypothesizing game together.

Editorial comment from June 2022 study posted above:

Are you stating that testosterone therapy in men causes high blood pressure? Are you stating that elevated hematocrit from testosterone therapy has been shown to cause elevated blood pressure and men? If you are then you are wrong. Can you please provide the studies that show testosterone therapy increases hypertension and man or that the increase in hematocrit has been shown to be harmful or cause hypertension? Of course you can’t because the studies show just the opposite. Are you stating that people that live at high altitude such as Denver who develop a secondary erythrocytosis are at higher risk for developing hypertension? Do you realize the secondary erythrocytosis from altitude is no different than testosterone therapy. Why are you not concerned about everyone living in the Mile high city. Why are they not moving to sea level to minimize their risk of hypertension? You’re arguing something you don’t even understand

Hey buddy that study was totally debunked but thanks for trying. If you refer to the vegan or Finkle study again your credibility is zero. Once again where is the study (RCT) that shows giving testosterone has ever caused a major adverse cardiac event. You don’t even understand what you just posted shows just how little you know about the whole testosterone literature.

You keep taking your AI buddy nobody cares. Just keep doing it and justify on your own mind while you do it. But to be very specific we don’t see any high E2 symptoms in men despite having great testosterone levels. But you keep blocking that estradiol all you want man

I am not currently taking AI dummy. Nor do I think everyone and anyone should. Why don’t you answer questions?

Why? Because you said so?

Yes I have that choice as does anyone else without having to get your approval.

Hey Tareload,
I spoke specifically with the author of this article in Florida just two months ago. I had a very specific conversation with doctor Ramasamy after he presented this article. Guess what? His statement was that he doesn’t feel the increase in hematocrit is harmful on testosterone. He also acknowledged the limitation of the study you just presented and that it was a database review and not an interventional study. The actual author states that hematocrit increase on testosterone is not dangerous.

What he is actually looking at now is to make sure that the magnitude of change doesn’t cause any harm for instance his exact words were “I don’t think raising hematocrit from 49 to 54 for instance is harmful but what about the men that go from 45 to 58? I need to look at them and make sure there’s no harm”. You have no idea of the weaknesses of the studies you try to present. Try posting on some real medical forms and see how far you get. You will become a laughing stock you just feel like you’re somebody when you can post on forums full of men without any real knowledge of the medical literature. I’ll tell you why go join WorldLink medical and they have a forum where you can post with all the providers around the country. Plenty of people do that that are not physicians . J Campbell for instance is a member of the forum.

So how does that make you feel knowing that I spoke in person to the author of the study who admits that it did not show harm and that it has severe limitations and should not be interpreted as causing harm. The study was unfortunately weak (data base study) and it’s faults were pointed out at the androgen society conference. Keep trying you’re not impressing

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Because we know so… Dummy

No we do not, doesn’t matter how much you or Danny or enackers repeat and say the same things over and over. The basis of your whole argument goes like this: someone says they feel like crap with E2 levels of X, and you just tell them they don’t its not the E2. Rinse and repeat day in and day out.

A lot of these studies on elevated hematocrit fail to take into account lifestyle factors, such as smoking, obesity/inflammation.

These aren’t healthy people having these issues with elevated hematocrit.

There’s a reason why doctor still feak out when they see elevated hematocrit of someone on TRT, because doctors weren’t taught certain diseases increases it.

Erythrocytosis on TRT is not a disease state and neither is living in Denver at high altitude. It’s the disease that causes all the problems, not the high hematocrit.