I’ve started writing something long along those lines… but, came to the same conclusion.
We can’t find anyone to interview. ‘Kids’ are getting snatched up out of school with signing bonuses. If you can breathe, you’re getting a job. I don’t know what your problem is.
No it’s not a troll
Nothing I’m just stating the facts and Hope that change comes to the way the hiring process is some of us can’t work while in school so we can’t have the experience they want.
Boston
This is a point worth expanding on - based on my experience, PhDs that have spent too much time in academia are pretty much useless in an engineering environment - too much specialization and a pronounced tendency to overcomplicate things.
I know several engineering PhDs over 35 that are functionally unemployable in the real world, aka the industry. I’m not sure if it’s the academia that is attracting certain psychological types or one simply develops certain traits after X years in an university environment.
I remember one of those guys expressing shock and dismay that he was offered a job in an area that “hasn’t produced a paper of some note in the last 5 years”. He was oblivious to the fact that how real life works - some may have the privilege to work on scientific breakthroughs while others may do “boring” tried-and-tested stuff that keeps machines working and planes in the sky.
Disclaimer: I have a PhD myself so I can talk shit about it. Never got my money back though through increased pay, only a temporary ego boost from those three letters after my surname.
I don’t know your full history so I could be mistaken, but you have worked as an engineer while advancing your education, right?
I’ve noticed people I know that have gotten their masters and up and have worked in the field as they did it seem to do really well.
On the other hand the ones that have gone straight through to post grad without ever having significant experience have really floundered. I’m sure there are exceptions to this, but that is just how it seems.
Also, just to clarify, I do not mean to imply that you may be one of the latter.
Based on my experience, this is true of PhDs who ‘work’ in the field (typically mechanical engineers designing HVAC systems). I call it naval gazing.
Then you’re going to have to get an entry level helpdesk job to pay your dues. There’s no real way around this. Your degree isn’t really worth the paper its printed on to a half intelligent hiring manager. It’s just a way to get your resume to not end up in the garbage.
I would say that employers have gotten lazy from 2 standpoints.
Allowing computers to read resumes (looking to match keywords) along with hiring 21 year olds that are 2 months out of college to be recruiters.
Secondly - complaining that employees don’ t bring applicable job skills, yet being unwilling to train or set up apprenticeship programs. Not considering those unpaid summer gigs as employers being realistic.
I commend the military for taking average educated kids and training to be competent and trustworthy employees. Often in very sophisticated and highly technical disciplines.
Ask @anon50325502. He went from daydreaming about cheerleaders to working on jets in a year +/- in the Marines. And now degreed up & coasting in number crunching gig in the a/c.
Can agree with both of these points. Obviously not everyone, but it is absolutely happening and it’s pretty damn lazy. That said, there is not an easy way around part of the problem–with people applying for ever more jobs via online sites, it can easily happen that an employer would have to sort through 500-800 resumes. Now there is not an easy way to maintain your other responsibilities while sorting through those hundreds of papers, so…
Yes, I got my PhD while working as an engineer. Took me twice as long but I was constantly involved in solving real life problems, which kept me grounded in reality and provided the much needed motivation to keep going with my studies. Otherwise I think I would have dropped out.
Mind you I’m not complaining about my career - I think I’m doing really, really well it just that I haven’t seen any tangible ROI on my PhD.
And that’s the old “correlation doesn’t imply causality” problem which is very indicative of the problems in higher education.
Recently I’ve had a very uncomfortable conversation with a bright young engineer and his parents. He comes from a very disadvantaged background and his parents made tremendous sacrifices for his education. He recently received an offer to enroll in a very renowned PhD program and the parents are contemplating selling literally all of their possesions to finance his expenses.
Being poor and poorly educated, the parents believe that an advanced degree is some sort of magical finish line that once crossed brings wealth and social status in abundance.
I had to painfully explain to them that with all those years of research eking out a living on less than minimum wage awaiting their son, a PhD is a recipe for disaster.
Rich people educate their kids because they can afford to, not the other way around.
I know some German companies where everyone in management has a PhD. The entire board, the CEO/CFO/VP of Sales etc… it’s not a Pharma or research company either. I asked why and they said that the owners feel that if they hire someone with a PhD they know that person can write well, defend arguments and think.
Very few of them were researchers or professors at any point in their career, it is like their equivalent of an MBA. One guy had a last name Doktor. The first time my boss said “Dr. Doktor” I’m like “gimme the news”.
Ohhh boy, I have a bunch of thoughts to add here…
Busy morning but maybe I’ll have some spare time to bang it all out this afternoon…
My point concerning the military addresses the 100s of resumes per opening, in one aspect. You have a pool of candidates that demonstrate enough quantifiable ability to train into what you need. A fighter pilot needs many abilities - quick decision making, agressive yet not reckless demeanor under duress, physical traits that nature allots only to some; some people can only really roll around oil drums; but a huge majority can be taught - radar operators, electronic/aircraft maintenance, deployment of weapons, flight operations.
The Air Force isn’t hiring those specialists - it’s creating them out of the volunteers that join the service.
Companies are all advertising for the fighter pilot who also has solved hunger and cured cancer for the drum roller position. I love my wife of 23 years immensely, but l doubt if she is the only woman l could have ever married. Yet companies are looking only for one ultimate candidate.
Although she is the best… in case she ever reads this hehe.
To clarify, not downing education or experience. Just every employee doesnt have to start as Cinderella. They can be created too.
Yup, totally agree. Using a computer/algorithm/analytics makes sense in the operations world, but not HR (IMO) and a lot of companies still don’t invest in their employees (I’m lucky in that mine does a pretty decent job). It’s a cost to do business of course, but the potential benefit far outweighs the cost/risk, imo.
The military does a great job, like you said, but the civilian world/government/whatever hasn’t figured out how to benefit from said training effectively. Too many Marines get out and they’re experience isn’t an exact fit so it’s marginalized or misunderstood. Most of the employers I’ve had since my enlistment ended haven’t even asked about my military experience. In one case, the interviewer was more concerned over internship experience (which I didn’t have) and I got the impression that that is what cost me the job, which, to be frank, is fucking dumb.
Another [quote=“Aragorn, post:50, topic:231800”]
Can agree with both of these points. Obviously not everyone, but it is absolutely happening and it’s pretty damn lazy. That said, there is not an easy way around part of the problem–with people applying for ever more jobs via online sites, it can easily happen that an employer would have to sort through 500-800 resumes. Now there is not an easy way to maintain your other responsibilities while sorting through those hundreds of papers, so…
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This is a good point.
Another thing, though, that I think is “broken” so to speak (and the government is especially bad with this), is the minimum education requirement necessary for a job. To be a GS-7 or maybe GS-9 you have to have a masters degree or some varying degree of post-bachelor education plus relevant (which is subjective in many cases) experience for a starting salary in the $50s maybe $60s. For GS-11+ it’s a Ph.D. (for $70k+) and I’m talking about finance/accounting jobs. No one meets that requirement…
There are plenty of examples. I’m pretty sure our AP department now requires a degree for entry level new hires, which is just unbelievable. You key invoices in based on coding that, in many cases, someone else provides. It’s very basic stuff you could train an 18/19-year-old to do in a day.
My degree was in Finance. We built huge mulit-variate models in school and although some of the formulas and regressions weren’t anything as hard as engineers do it was still very involved.
We had a professor who worked in Private Equity and I Banking. He’d give us 24 hours to write up Pitch Books for a company, and then tell us it was trash and we’d all be fired if we tried to pull that in a real company.
So I work sales for a while and get my first accounting gig. It was in AP. They taught me what to do in 1 hour. So I come back 2 hours later with all of the work done. “What do I do now?” “Look busy for six hours.” I’m thinking I needed a degree for this?
Lol, ya… On the other hand, you’d probably be surprised at how many times I have to walk over to AP and be like dafuq did you do with this invoice?? How did you code this to software when it has the coding for temp expense IN BOLD right here…
Here here, my law degree vastly over prepared me for AML work. Had I had a big head about it, I wouldn’t be employed.