[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
than people that are essentially stealing millions or billions (trillions?)[/quote]
This is the part where we start to disagree I imagine.
You example below is an example of fraud, and to a degree, theft. However the meltdown wasn’t the same thing, and shit like he did isn’t the norm.
[quote]Example, 4 years for $110 million.
[/quote]
4 years isn’t really that short, and he also dimed out a few people here. He ratted to get that deal.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
In the last decade, have you NEVER come across a company that treated employees poorly? [/quote]
I have not, in a single circumstance, seen a company treat their employees the way you say ALL companies FUCK their employees.
[/quote]That’s not what I said. I believe I was quite specific in saying that my current company treats me great. Anyway, I’m done arguing with you - if you have to twist my words to make your point, I’ve already won the debate… Besides, you deal with owners, not employees, so how the fuck would you know what morale is like on the ground in construction companies?[quote]
You’re missing the point. When someone is on the job and speaks like you have in this thread, creating and maintain the false narrative of “management v employee” it lowers morale. Low morale = less productivity. Less Productivity means less money for everyone.
Yes, if I ever heard an employee talking like you have in this thread, I’d invite them to go work for someone else.
[/quote]
Then you’d fire 90% of your people, Beans. EVERYONE bitches at one point or another. And I certainly hope you’d give me the benefit of the doubt to know the difference between an anonymous message board and a work place. As I said before: I’VE NEVER BEEN FIRED. I’ve always been promoted (though not always rewarded financially for my responsibility). I provide more value than most because I understand that my company’s success is intimately linked to my own. However, I’ve been working for over 25 years in a variety of job and industries. I’ve had two careers. I’ve owned businesses. I’ve managed hundreds of people. And I stand by what I WROTE, which was MOST companies, when given the chance, will pay a good employee the LEAST AMOUNT THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH. Especially if they know said employee’s options are limited. You can take that to the bank.
On the flip side, with my current company, and when I owned businesses and managed employees, I learned that when employees feel taken care of - above and beyond what HAS to be compensated - they put out. When I manage men, I lead from THE FRONT. If someone has an emergency and has to leave early, I cover their time for the whole day. I don’t HAVE to. But I do. Will one or two guys take advantage of me from time to time? YUP. Will MOST of my men appreciate it and work harder and increase my overall rate of productions? YUP And that’s why most of my jobs have been very profitable. It amazes me that most companies don’t realize this. They waste their time trying to protect against the one or two bad apples who MIGHT get over on them and in the process alienate the entire crew. Bad apples work themselves out over time, it isn’t necessary to treat grown men like children because of a few. If you treat men like men, they tend to act like men…
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Anyway, I’m done arguing with you - if you have to twist my words to make your point, I’ve already won the debate… [/quote]
Um, I didn’t twist shit… You said:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. [/quote]
So no, I didn’t twist, and you didn’t win. But feel free to deny you actually wrote what I just quoted from a couple pages ago and claim some sort of technical victory.
We get it, you’re pro-union. Awesome. I’m glad it’s working for you. That doesn’t make what I just quoted you as saying true, and it’s what I’ve been responding to this entire time.
You’d be surprised what your employer knows, and tells people he considers advisors.
Bitching and claiming [quote]angry chicken wrote:
Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. [/quote] are two different things. Stop twisting your own words.
That isn’t what you wrote.
You wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. [/quote]
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
EVERYONE bitches at one point or another. [/quote]
End of the day, what your saying here in this thread and bitching are two different things. Also note that coming from someone like you and someone like Pitttttbull are two different things.
What you’re saying here is a philosophical approach that even if you don’t know it, effects everything you do, from your day to day work habits down to the way you dress when you show up. If people honestly believe they are in a battle with management, morale is shit, construction or office space, it doesn’t matter.
If people honestly show up thinking they are getting fucked over, or will be as soon as the bossman gets the chance (which he has the chance at any moment), you’re dragging a lot of baggage in with you, that good management picks up on, real quick.
Everything is about relationships in business. Starting off a relationship thinking “they are going to fuck me” isn’t going to make a good relationship. Neither is starting of thinking “this person is a slacker that is going to fuck off and punch a clock at 5pm”.
This notion that management is just itching for the opportunity to fuck you is collectivist, leftist, Marxist nonsense. No, you’re not going to be paid more than you’re worth, nor should you be. If you don’t like that, be worth more.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Ok, you were right, I was inaccurately speaking about the application of the law, vs the law itself.
Do you guys think that a recent example would also be the Wall Streeters who were responsible (in part?) for the global recession?
Afaik, no one significant got in trouble.[/quote]
The application of the law can absolutely be fucked up. I agree with you to an extent. Its just that the door swings both ways, imo. I’ve talked about the Wall Streeters before (more or less argued actually) that this is a good example of poor application of the law. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your view point, things like GAAP, for example, are very complex and in most cases the worst outcome is a corporate fine with no individual jail time. However, there is legislature that deals with Corporate leadership’s failure to adequately detect things like fraud (see the Sarbanes Oxley Act of 2002), but it is inadequate, imo.
[/quote]
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Ok, you were right, I was inaccurately speaking about the application of the law, vs the law itself.
Do you guys think that a recent example would also be the Wall Streeters who were responsible (in part?) for the global recession?
Afaik, no one significant got in trouble.[/quote]
Do I think quite a bit of players involved in that fiasco missed out on some punishment that they very much should have gotten? Yes. Including people in government. [/quote]
Just to respond to the both of you.
I think what drives me nuts is that some guy that robs a store for 1k is getting a more severe punishment than people that are essentially stealing millions or billions (trillions?)
Example, 4 years for $110 million.
[/quote]
You’ve gotta read the fine print:
“Belfort served 22 months at the Taft Correctional Center in Taft, California in exchange for a plea deal with the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the pump and dump scams he ran that led to investor losses of approximately US$200 million.[27] Belfort was ordered to pay back $110.4 million that he swindled from stock buyers.”
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/the-real-belfort-story-missing-from-wolf-movie/
“Their cooperation proved to be extremely valuable to law enforcement, contributing to dozens of convictions of other significant wrongdoers. They each received substantially reduced prison terms from the court as reward for their assistance in prosecuting others.”
[/quote]
Except he hasn’t paid back shit.
usmc, take your own advice
[quote]
BusinessWeek reported that of approximately $1.2 million paid to Belfort in connection with the film, Belfort had paid only $21,000 toward his restitution obligations.[37]
By September 2014, the amount Belfort had paid toward his restitution debt still stood at $11.6 million.[38] [/quote]
He was released in 2006, and he still owes $100M, at this rate most of his creditors (not sure if right word) will be dead. I wonder if the $110M gets adjusted for inflation. Seems it should
He should have to pay back every single fucking cent and interest, except that he doesn’t know how to earn money in an honest way.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
usmc, take your own advice
[quote]
BusinessWeek reported that of approximately $1.2 million paid to Belfort in connection with the film, Belfort had paid only $21,000 toward his restitution obligations.[37]
By September 2014, the amount Belfort had paid toward his restitution debt still stood at $11.6 million.[38] [/quote]
He was released in 2006, and he still owes $100M, at this rate most of his creditors (not sure if right word) will be dead. I wonder if the $110M gets adjusted for inflation. Seems it should
He should have to pay back every single fucking cent and interest, except that he doesn’t know how to earn money in an honest way.[/quote]
I’m going to go out on a limb and say he is still a pigeon at this point.
You don’t just get to not pay this shit, lol.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I’m going to go out on a limb and say he is still a pigeon at this point.
You don’t just get to not pay this shit, lol. [/quote]
Wiki says-
Criminal penalty
4 years in federal prison, $110 million in restitution[1]
Criminal status Released April 2006 after 22 months[1][2]
Lots of corruption everywhere. People should spend less time being scared of liberal boogeymen and clamp down on corruption everywhere instead.
Hell, any presidential candidate who says he’ll enforce the law as it’s written in the bloody books gets my vote.
But he’ll probably be dead within a month, physically or politically.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
usmc, take your own advice
[quote]
BusinessWeek reported that of approximately $1.2 million paid to Belfort in connection with the film, Belfort had paid only $21,000 toward his restitution obligations.[37]
By September 2014, the amount Belfort had paid toward his restitution debt still stood at $11.6 million.[38] [/quote]
He was released in 2006, and he still owes $100M, at this rate most of his creditors (not sure if right word) will be dead. I wonder if the $110M gets adjusted for inflation. Seems it should
He should have to pay back every single fucking cent and interest, except that he doesn’t know how to earn money in an honest way.[/quote]
From what I read his wages are being garnished by 50%. He obviously doesn’t have the money just lying around…
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Except he hasn’t paid back shit.[/quote]
That’s really irrelevant.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Except he hasn’t paid back shit.[/quote]
That’s really irrelevant. [/quote]
He’s paid back ~1/11 in about ten years. At this rate he’ll be dead or the people who are owed will be dead.
So how is it irrelevant?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Except for the fact that I was “out” the money that I was worth while I was unnecessarily “proving myself”.
But the funny part is that he (and just about every single boss who’s every underpaid me) cry a fucking RIVER when I have quit. They offer to pay more, or to match it. The last company I quit, when I picked up my pink slip, the OWNER (who I had only met three times) offered to create a Preventive Maintenance department and let me run it… My question is this: if they are so butt hurt and eager to match the deal I’m leaving them for, WHY THE FUCK DIDN’T THEY GIVE IT TO ME IN THE FIRST PLACE? And before anyone says, “cuz you didn’t ask for it”, that’s bullshit. I ALWAYS ask for what I’m worth when I’m not getting it.
It obviously comes down to either one of two things: 1)they are too stupid to see what I’m worth and the value I provide. or 2)they HAVE the metrics in place and are well aware of the value I provide, but they are too greedy to offer me what I’m worth. I don’t think many companies that stay in business do so by being stupid. So I have to assume they are GREEDY and want to get every last penny out of me while paying me shit. That’s not Win:Win. So FUCK THEM.
And to address Beans’ accusation that I’m a piece of shit employee who has a morale problem, I’ve NEVER been fired from a company IN MY LIFE - one would think that if I were such a problem employee that might have happened a time or two… On the contrary, at every single job I’ve ever had, I’ve risen quickly.
[/quote]
Alright. I’m not going to argue with you. If half of what you claim is true, I honestly don’t know shit about anything. I was actually agreeing with you that if you are worth what you think, you did fuck them. In my experience the more money a company makes, the more generous they are.
And FTR Since I had my first job running rides at a fun park, through rebuilding forklifts through college, to my career since college, I’ve never once in my life been fired either.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Anyway, I’m done arguing with you - if you have to twist my words to make your point, I’ve already won the debate… [/quote]
Um, I didn’t twist shit… You said:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. [/quote]
So no, I didn’t twist, and you didn’t win. But feel free to deny you actually wrote what I just quoted from a couple pages ago and claim some sort of technical victory. [/quote]Beans, you just took MULTIPLE POSTS and MULTIPLE PARAGRAPHS and reduced it to one sentence out of context. That’s fine. That’s the whole “how to win an argument on PWI strategy”. Whatever, dude. I get it. You like to come on here, pick a position, swing your dick around and “win” an e-argument. Great for stress, right? Well congratulations, you just joined the list of people (SMH, Bis, SM, DD, etc…) who employ that bullshit strategy instead of arguing substance. I will no longer argue with you. You don’t read carefully or find any nuance in your opponent’s position, you find a one liner and latch on to it and you only care about shouting past me. That’s fine. YOU WIN. Happy now?[quote]
We get it, you’re pro-union. Awesome [/quote]Again, IF you had actually read some of what I wrote, you’d know that I’m pretty ANTI - union (with the exception of SOME trade unions)[quote]. I’m glad it’s working for you. That doesn’t make what I just quoted you as saying true, and it’s what I’ve been responding to this entire time.
You’d be surprised what your employer knows, and tells people he considers advisors.
Bitching and claiming [quote]angry chicken wrote:
Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. [/quote] are two different things. Stop twisting your own words.
[/quote]Again, you are confusing an internet message board with a workplace - I NEVER HAVE [quote]
That isn’t what you wrote. [/quote]I have written that. Several times. But that doesn’t fit into YOUR narrative. Every time I’ve attempted to articulate my position more clearly (because you obviously misunderstood my intent) you keep shoving back ONE SENTENCE OUT OF CONTEXT IN MY FACE. That’s not how civilized people have a conversation, Beans. But apparently it’s how you “win” an e-argument… Congratulations.[quote]
You wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. [/quote]
[/quote]
What did I do?
Edit: To get on that list with smh, Bismarck, DD etc?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
EVERYONE bitches at one point or another. [/quote]
End of the day, what your saying here in this thread and bitching are two different things. Also note that coming from someone like you and someone like Pitttttbull are two different things.
What you’re saying here is a philosophical approach that even if you don’t know it, effects everything you do, from your day to day work habits down to the way you dress when you show up. If people honestly believe they are in a battle with management, morale is shit, construction or office space, it doesn’t matter.
[/quote]So now you’re challenging my work ethic and the way I dress? YOU DON’T KNOW ME, BUDDY…[quote]
If people honestly show up thinking they are getting fucked over, or will be as soon as the bossman gets the chance (which he has the chance at any moment), you’re dragging a lot of baggage in with you, that good management picks up on, real quick.
[/quote]I start EVERY relationship, work or otherwise, with a clean slate[quote]
Everything is about relationships in business. Starting off a relationship thinking “they are going to fuck me” isn’t going to make a good relationship. Neither is starting of thinking “this person is a slacker that is going to fuck off and punch a clock at 5pm”.
This notion that management is just itching for the opportunity to fuck you is collectivist, leftist, Marxist nonsense. No, you’re not going to be paid more than you’re worth, nor should you be. If you don’t like that, be worth more. [/quote]
I know what I’m worth (and most companies agree with me). But did you REALLY just call ME a Marxist? LMAO. You’re barking up the wrong tree there, buddy… Beans, if you ever said that to my face, I’d invite you out back so we could “discuss” it…
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
What did I do?
Edit: To get on that list with smh, Bismarck, DD etc?[/quote]
You and I rarely disagree. But when we have in the past (and from when I see you argue with other people), the focus is not on discussion, it it on winning. It’s the whole “PWI winning” strategy. (the cut and paste out of context, the ignore any clarification, the focus on the minutia vs the substance, the challenging of the sources - as if one’s own opinion and experience has no merit, etc… You know WINNING strategies) It’s not like having an argument in person, it’s a real pain in the ass. If people argued in real life the way they argue on the internet, people would look at them very strangely - it’s not a credible way to deal with people. Frankly, I’m getting to the point where I just can’t be bothered with it anymore.
FWIW, you and I haven’t disagreed in many months and I love your posts. But if I disagree with you, I tend to keep my mouth shut because the argument just gets too frustrating.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Except for the fact that I was “out” the money that I was worth while I was unnecessarily “proving myself”.
But the funny part is that he (and just about every single boss who’s every underpaid me) cry a fucking RIVER when I have quit. They offer to pay more, or to match it. The last company I quit, when I picked up my pink slip, the OWNER (who I had only met three times) offered to create a Preventive Maintenance department and let me run it… My question is this: if they are so butt hurt and eager to match the deal I’m leaving them for, WHY THE FUCK DIDN’T THEY GIVE IT TO ME IN THE FIRST PLACE? And before anyone says, “cuz you didn’t ask for it”, that’s bullshit. I ALWAYS ask for what I’m worth when I’m not getting it.
It obviously comes down to either one of two things: 1)they are too stupid to see what I’m worth and the value I provide. or 2)they HAVE the metrics in place and are well aware of the value I provide, but they are too greedy to offer me what I’m worth. I don’t think many companies that stay in business do so by being stupid. So I have to assume they are GREEDY and want to get every last penny out of me while paying me shit. That’s not Win:Win. So FUCK THEM.
And to address Beans’ accusation that I’m a piece of shit employee who has a morale problem, I’ve NEVER been fired from a company IN MY LIFE - one would think that if I were such a problem employee that might have happened a time or two… On the contrary, at every single job I’ve ever had, I’ve risen quickly.
[/quote]
Alright. I’m not going to argue with you. If half of what you claim is true, I honestly don’t know shit about anything. I was actually agreeing with you that if you are worth what you think, you did fuck them. In my experience the more money a company makes, the more generous they are.
And FTR Since I had my first job running rides at a fun park, through rebuilding forklifts through college, to my career since college, I’ve never once in my life been fired either.[/quote]
With your “winning personality” you’ve never been fired? DD, you must be the best damn employee EVER! LOL (that was a friendly ball bust, because you are one of the most frustrating individuals I know LOL)
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
What did I do?
Edit: To get on that list with smh, Bismarck, DD etc?[/quote]
You and I rarely disagree. But when we have in the past (and from when I see you argue with other people), the focus is not on discussion, it it on winning. It’s the whole “PWI winning” strategy. (the cut and paste out of context, the ignore any clarification, the focus on the minutia vs the substance, the challenging of the sources - as if one’s own opinion and experience has no merit, etc… You know WINNING strategies) It’s not like having an argument in person, it’s a real pain in the ass. If people argued in real life the way they argue on the internet, people would look at them very strangely - it’s not a credible way to deal with people. Frankly, I’m getting to the point where I just can’t be bothered with it anymore.
FWIW, you and I haven’t disagreed in many months and I love your posts. But if I disagree with you, I tend to keep my mouth shut because the argument just gets too frustrating.[/quote]
Fair enough. Although I think I focus on the substance. I am also an amateur debater and know how to research something properly(not just cut and paste)
I’m seeing a lot of miscommunication coming from people who are essentially in agreement on this thread…just not communicating clearly on details.
I will say I do notice yhe same trend with you SM, but I also am generally on the same side as you…and I am certain the same could be said about me at numerous points in this forum :). That’s one of the problems with the internet. Not only style of communication changes but also there is a complete lack on nonverbal subtext and tone. Hard to read in a charged discussion in the same way you would hear in personal life.
Probly been more responsible than anything else for missed jokes amd needless arguments
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
As for the safety aspect, OSHA is in place, that is for sure, and it is underfunded - this means that there are less inspectors and the addition of workplace protections that Unions provide allow for workers to stand up and contact OSHA without the repercussions. for the most part, anyway.
[/quote]
Out of curiosity, have you ever dealt with OSHA?[/quote]
Umm, no - not directly. but I have dealt with MSHA, and that is kinda the same - but when does experience and education come into this forum? from what I understand, as long as you have bullshit and bravado, then you are welcome here.
there you go changing the rules on me~[/quote]
I have dealt with OSHA and they are a mostly incompetent bureaucracy. However, in the fifteen years I have been with this company OSHA has not set foot here once. How is that for ensuring safety?