The only debt a person “owes to society” is to live peaceably and not enslave ones fellow by indirect use of force.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The only debt a person “owes to society” is to live peaceably and not enslave ones fellow by indirect use of force.[/quote]
This is kinda what I was getting at with my posts. In in modern world that involves paying taxes etc.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The only debt a person “owes to society” is to live peaceably and not enslave ones fellow by indirect use of force.[/quote]
This is kinda what I was getting at with my posts. In in modern world that involves paying taxes etc.
[/quote]
No, it does not.
Not beyond a certain point and you cannot even postulate a duty to pay those without having it torn apart by any 1st semester philosophy student.
[quote]ephrem wrote:
The system that allows you to live your life in relative safety, that provides healthcare and education; the system that allows you to manifest your dreams, we may like to think we owe it nothing but where would most of us be without it?
[/quote]
That system has always existed. It is called the market and it operates under voluntary conditions. We don’t “owe a debt” if we work for what we want.
The debt is owed by people who spend what was not theirs and it is not owed “to society” - on the contrary, it is owed to specific people and institutions.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The only debt a person “owes to society” is to live peaceably and not enslave ones fellow by indirect use of force.[/quote]
This is kinda what I was getting at with my posts. In in modern world that involves paying taxes etc.
[/quote]
No, it does not.
Not beyond a certain point and you cannot even postulate a duty to pay those without having it torn apart by any 1st semester philosophy student. [/quote]
Until things like Police, Fire, roads and bridges are funded by private citizens, then yes, to “live peaceably” includes funding that shit through taxes.
And when it comes right down to it, the fact others freeload off my contribution to those things, and often use those things more than I do (Police comes to mind), really only bothers me on the surface. On my death bed, I’m not going to be angry I gave more than others, but rather hold my head high that faced with having to give more than I “should” I still did it, and still did okay for myself in the process.
Maybe I’m missing something here…
And no, I didn’t ask for half the shit I pay for as a member of society. They are but burdens we bear for the things we do ask for, I guess.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Society is possible because of tribute taking states. We pay taxes according to the laws that the people in charge create. They take those taxes and build roads, pay firefighters and other essential services. So what is this “debt” you speak of? I pay my taxes so I’m entitled to enjoy the benefits of society. I’d say it’s the people who DON’T pay taxes and live off the government cheese that are the one’s who have the DEBT to society! That would be almost HALF of the working class (when they bother to get off their lazy asses and find a job), the same one’s incidentally who feel as if society “owes” them something.
I’m a felon without a HS diploma. When I got out of jail I couldn’t afford college so I worked a blue collar job for ten years and saved my money. I used that money to start a mortgage business which got me a LOT more money. I leveraged that money to buy real estate and start and sell a few other businesses. When gov’t regulation ripped my mortgage career out from under me, I bartended and did electrical side work to make money. I finally decided to pack all my shit in my car, drive a thousand miles to another state, lived in a tent, paid for some industry classes and found a job in a completely different field than I ever worked in. I’ve never collected a SINGLE PENNY of unemployment, wellfare or foodstamps in my life. So please explain to me what exactly I “owe” to society?
I did what I had to do to feed MY family and I’m a felon without a HS diploma. Why can’t someone sitting on wellfare not doing shit with his life do the same thing? What’s his excuse?[/quote]
You’ve got it wrong, mate. We are exploited by government. They owe us.
Government exploits poor people by keeping them dependent on the system. Don’t blame them. They are kept ignorant of this exploitation by government controlled schools and media.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The only debt a person “owes to society” is to live peaceably and not enslave ones fellow by indirect use of force.[/quote]
This is kinda what I was getting at with my posts. In in modern world that involves paying taxes etc.
[/quote]
No, it does not.
Not beyond a certain point and you cannot even postulate a duty to pay those without having it torn apart by any 1st semester philosophy student. [/quote]
Until things like Police, Fire, roads and bridges are funded by private citizens, then yes, to “live peaceably” includes funding that shit through taxes.
[/quote]
They never will be as long as government crowds them out.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The only debt a person “owes to society” is to live peaceably and not enslave ones fellow by indirect use of force.[/quote]
This is kinda what I was getting at with my posts. In in modern world that involves paying taxes etc.
[/quote]
No, it does not.
Not beyond a certain point and you cannot even postulate a duty to pay those without having it torn apart by any 1st semester philosophy student. [/quote]
Until things like Police, Fire, roads and bridges are funded by private citizens, then yes, to “live peaceably” includes funding that shit through taxes.
[/quote]
They never will be as long as government crowds them out. [/quote]
Right.
I guess more than “debt” I feel I have a responsibility to society. I feel it is my duty to live and act a certain way within the larger rules society holds. And I feel it is my duty to talk about when I feel those rules are wrong.
Government controls the bullets. A few people control the bulk of the dollars. They are in bed together. I’d rather the government get weaker first, as dollars only have value as long as we give it that value. Bullets have value because they can take your life…
It is my duty to say how I feel and try and change it. But I can’t not pay into it, as I can’t do shit from jail or a coffin.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
It is my duty to say how I feel and try and change it. But I can’t not pay into it, as I can’t do shit from jail or a coffin. [/quote]
Absolutely.
But calling that a “duty” would be disgraceful.
If a government stuck to the basic I would agree that you have a duty to pay in, even though it is hard to argue the point.
At this point point, I call it what it is, a protection racket.
One of my little joys in life is to remind all those little Jacobins that their ongoing quest for utopia is built on my unwilling back.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
It is my duty to say how I feel and try and change it. But I can’t not pay into it, as I can’t do shit from jail or a coffin. [/quote]
Absolutely.
But calling that a “duty” would be disgraceful. [/quote]
Well, my duty to be a father to my kids, and husband to my wife kinda forces my hand to accept the government for what it is, at least on a “pay the least amount I have to in order to stay out of prison” way of thinking.
I get what you are saying, and agree. I just have been beaten down in my “old” age and conceed there are things out of my control and my voice will go unheard in a nation that loves free shit handed to them.
My only hope is to teach my kids not to be leeches and hope that this whole thing works like a gun shot. If the gun is off target by an inch at the barrel, by the time the bullet gets to the target it will be off by 10 feet. So if i can make my kids an inch better than I was, at the very least, my grandkids and their grandkids will be miles better.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
It is my duty to say how I feel and try and change it. But I can’t not pay into it, as I can’t do shit from jail or a coffin. [/quote]
Absolutely.
But calling that a “duty” would be disgraceful. [/quote]
Well, my duty to be a father to my kids, and husband to my wife kinda forces my hand to accept the government for what it is, at least on a “pay the least amount I have to in order to stay out of prison” way of thinking.
I get what you are saying, and agree. I just have been beaten down in my “old” age and conceed there are things out of my control and my voice will go unheard in a nation that loves free shit handed to them.
My only hope is to teach my kids not to be leeches and hope that this whole thing works like a gun shot. If the gun is off target by an inch at the barrel, by the time the bullet gets to the target it will be off by 10 feet. So if i can make my kids an inch better than I was, at the very least, my grandkids and their grandkids will be miles better.[/quote]
Oh, IRL I am beyond being a realist.
I will inch my way forward any and every way I can, but if you want to prosper in a society, you first need to learn how it works.
And honor, duty, solidarity and all that crap have nothing to do with how it works.
There guns, here me, lets make the best of it.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Society is possible because of tribute taking states. We pay taxes according to the laws that the people in charge create. They take those taxes and build roads, pay firefighters and other essential services. So what is this “debt” you speak of? I pay my taxes so I’m entitled to enjoy the benefits of society. I’d say it’s the people who DON’T pay taxes and live off the government cheese that are the one’s who have the DEBT to society! That would be almost HALF of the working class (when they bother to get off their lazy asses and find a job), the same one’s incidentally who feel as if society “owes” them something.
I’m a felon without a HS diploma. When I got out of jail I couldn’t afford college so I worked a blue collar job for ten years and saved my money. I used that money to start a mortgage business which got me a LOT more money. I leveraged that money to buy real estate and start and sell a few other businesses. When gov’t regulation ripped my mortgage career out from under me, I bartended and did electrical side work to make money. I finally decided to pack all my shit in my car, drive a thousand miles to another state, lived in a tent, paid for some industry classes and found a job in a completely different field than I ever worked in. I’ve never collected a SINGLE PENNY of unemployment, wellfare or foodstamps in my life. So please explain to me what exactly I “owe” to society?
I did what I had to do to feed MY family and I’m a felon without a HS diploma. Why can’t someone sitting on wellfare not doing shit with his life do the same thing? What’s his excuse?[/quote]
You’ve got it wrong, mate. We are exploited by government. They owe us.
Government exploits poor people by keeping them dependent on the system. Don’t blame them. They are kept ignorant of this exploitation by government controlled schools and media.[/quote]
You see, I don’t think ANYONE, be it government or individual, owes me ANYTHING. I take responsibility for my SELF, my ACTIONS and my OUTCOMES. The concept that somebody “owes” me something just smacks of entitlement - and we all know where that slippery slope ends…
Sure there are poor people. WHAT’S KEEPING THEM THERE? I was born poor. I went to public school in Baltimore City and didn’t graduate. I watched the same TV shows that everyone else did. I grew up physically abused in a broken home under circumstances that would give you nightmares. But I was NEVER a victim. I never used it as an excuse to be a loser. I learned the lessons, used what was useful and discarded what wasn’t. Making excuses for people deprives them of their VOLITION. It lands them squarely in the “victim mentality” and robs them of their personal power.
ANYONE born in the United States of America who is not mentally retarded has the ability and opportunity to rise above their circumstance. Do you know how many programs, grants, trusts and charities are set up to help disadvantaged people (minority, female, poor, insert “disadvantage” here)? The ONLY thing keeping them where they are is themselves and their daily actions (or non-actions). They simply don’t WANT to change badly enough.
Now why wouldn’t they want to change? Because it ain’t so bad! They get a check every month. They get a roof over their head. They get food stamps. They are comfortable! Take that away and I PROMISE you you’ll see people wake up and realize that they actually have to DO something with their lives and take personal responsibility for their actions. Or else they wont EAT.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Society is possible because of tribute taking states. We pay taxes according to the laws that the people in charge create. They take those taxes and build roads, pay firefighters and other essential services. So what is this “debt” you speak of? I pay my taxes so I’m entitled to enjoy the benefits of society. I’d say it’s the people who DON’T pay taxes and live off the government cheese that are the one’s who have the DEBT to society! That would be almost HALF of the working class (when they bother to get off their lazy asses and find a job), the same one’s incidentally who feel as if society “owes” them something.
I’m a felon without a HS diploma. When I got out of jail I couldn’t afford college so I worked a blue collar job for ten years and saved my money. I used that money to start a mortgage business which got me a LOT more money. I leveraged that money to buy real estate and start and sell a few other businesses. When gov’t regulation ripped my mortgage career out from under me, I bartended and did electrical side work to make money. I finally decided to pack all my shit in my car, drive a thousand miles to another state, lived in a tent, paid for some industry classes and found a job in a completely different field than I ever worked in. I’ve never collected a SINGLE PENNY of unemployment, wellfare or foodstamps in my life. So please explain to me what exactly I “owe” to society?
I did what I had to do to feed MY family and I’m a felon without a HS diploma. Why can’t someone sitting on wellfare not doing shit with his life do the same thing? What’s his excuse?[/quote]
You’ve got it wrong, mate. We are exploited by government. They owe us.
Government exploits poor people by keeping them dependent on the system. Don’t blame them. They are kept ignorant of this exploitation by government controlled schools and media.[/quote]
You see, I don’t think ANYONE, be it government or individual, owes me ANYTHING. I take responsibility for my SELF, my ACTIONS and my OUTCOMES. The concept that somebody “owes” me something just smacks of entitlement - and we all know where that slippery slope ends…
Sure there are poor people. WHAT’S KEEPING THEM THERE? I was born poor. I went to public school in Baltimore City and didn’t graduate. I watched the same TV shows that everyone else did. I grew up physically abused in a broken home under circumstances that would give you nightmares. But I was NEVER a victim. I never used it as an excuse to be a loser. I learned the lessons, used what was useful and discarded what wasn’t. Making excuses for people deprives them of their VOLITION. It lands them squarely in the “victim mentality” and robs them of their personal power.
ANYONE born in the United States of America who is not mentally retarded has the ability and opportunity to rise above their circumstance. Do you know how many programs, grants, trusts and charities are set up to help disadvantaged people (minority, female, poor, insert “disadvantage” here)? The ONLY thing keeping them where they are is themselves and their daily actions (or non-actions). They simply don’t WANT to change badly enough.
Now why wouldn’t they want to change? Because it ain’t so bad! They get a check every month. They get a roof over their head. They get food stamps. They are comfortable! Take that away and I PROMISE you you’ll see people wake up and realize that they actually have to DO something with their lives and take personal responsibility for their actions. Or else they wont EAT.
[/quote]
I don’t think you guys are disagreeing much really
I agree with both of you
Because of that last paragraph of yours, they are being robbed of untold riches by the gov’t system by being given the scraps they are. And they are also at fault for accepting - not all do accept - but still
Key word was robbed. Implies a debt
Or maybe I’m confused
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Society is possible because of tribute taking states. We pay taxes according to the laws that the people in charge create. They take those taxes and build roads, pay firefighters and other essential services. So what is this “debt” you speak of? I pay my taxes so I’m entitled to enjoy the benefits of society. I’d say it’s the people who DON’T pay taxes and live off the government cheese that are the one’s who have the DEBT to society! That would be almost HALF of the working class (when they bother to get off their lazy asses and find a job), the same one’s incidentally who feel as if society “owes” them something.
I’m a felon without a HS diploma. When I got out of jail I couldn’t afford college so I worked a blue collar job for ten years and saved my money. I used that money to start a mortgage business which got me a LOT more money. I leveraged that money to buy real estate and start and sell a few other businesses. When gov’t regulation ripped my mortgage career out from under me, I bartended and did electrical side work to make money. I finally decided to pack all my shit in my car, drive a thousand miles to another state, lived in a tent, paid for some industry classes and found a job in a completely different field than I ever worked in. I’ve never collected a SINGLE PENNY of unemployment, wellfare or foodstamps in my life. So please explain to me what exactly I “owe” to society?
I did what I had to do to feed MY family and I’m a felon without a HS diploma. Why can’t someone sitting on wellfare not doing shit with his life do the same thing? What’s his excuse?[/quote]
You’ve got it wrong, mate. We are exploited by government. They owe us.
Government exploits poor people by keeping them dependent on the system. Don’t blame them. They are kept ignorant of this exploitation by government controlled schools and media.[/quote]
You see, I don’t think ANYONE, be it government or individual, owes me ANYTHING. I take responsibility for my SELF, my ACTIONS and my OUTCOMES. The concept that somebody “owes” me something just smacks of entitlement - and we all know where that slippery slope ends…
Sure there are poor people. WHAT’S KEEPING THEM THERE? I was born poor. I went to public school in Baltimore City and didn’t graduate. I watched the same TV shows that everyone else did. I grew up physically abused in a broken home under circumstances that would give you nightmares. But I was NEVER a victim. I never used it as an excuse to be a loser. I learned the lessons, used what was useful and discarded what wasn’t. Making excuses for people deprives them of their VOLITION. It lands them squarely in the “victim mentality” and robs them of their personal power.
ANYONE born in the United States of America who is not mentally retarded has the ability and opportunity to rise above their circumstance. Do you know how many programs, grants, trusts and charities are set up to help disadvantaged people (minority, female, poor, insert “disadvantage” here)? The ONLY thing keeping them where they are is themselves and their daily actions (or non-actions). They simply don’t WANT to change badly enough.
Now why wouldn’t they want to change? Because it ain’t so bad! They get a check every month. They get a roof over their head. They get food stamps. They are comfortable! Take that away and I PROMISE you you’ll see people wake up and realize that they actually have to DO something with their lives and take personal responsibility for their actions. Or else they wont EAT.
[/quote]
People are easily fooled into believing certain things and that is what affects their volition. As far as they are concerned they have only limited choices - the choices politicians and bureaucrats set up for them. They are essentially trapped by the gravitational pull of their own ignorance - and that is not making excuses for them.
The people that can escape that “gravitational pull” are a limited lot. Not many people ever come to the realization that they can change their own destiny and even if some people do ever realize it the chance for success is improbable.
So, I think we’ve concluded that, empirically and objectively speaking, there is no such thing as a ‘debt’ to society. Or to family or friends, for that matter.
And why be all wimpy about it? A debt? We’re talking about taxes here, no? Just say taxes.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
And why be all wimpy about it? A debt? We’re talking about taxes here, no? Just say taxes. [/quote]
I think we can all agree that “debt to society” is term invented for the sole purpose of taking something that belongs to someone else.
It is not taxes, per se, it is the entire idea that because someone else has come before us that we owe this abstract collection of (possibly dead) people something for their contribution “to society” - which would require us to forget they were already paid for their contribution.
I gotta say, I’m glad that I’m the age I am and am in a good place financially. Our country is fucked, period. Morally, idealogically(sp) and economically. I’m continually amazed when I see the posts on FB from people who I went to school with. The liberal attitude is scary and unreasonable. I just don’t get it.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Society is possible because of tribute taking states. We pay taxes according to the laws that the people in charge create. They take those taxes and build roads, pay firefighters and other essential services. So what is this “debt” you speak of? I pay my taxes so I’m entitled to enjoy the benefits of society. I’d say it’s the people who DON’T pay taxes and live off the government cheese that are the one’s who have the DEBT to society! That would be almost HALF of the working class (when they bother to get off their lazy asses and find a job), the same one’s incidentally who feel as if society “owes” them something.
I’m a felon without a HS diploma. When I got out of jail I couldn’t afford college so I worked a blue collar job for ten years and saved my money. I used that money to start a mortgage business which got me a LOT more money. I leveraged that money to buy real estate and start and sell a few other businesses. When gov’t regulation ripped my mortgage career out from under me, I bartended and did electrical side work to make money. I finally decided to pack all my shit in my car, drive a thousand miles to another state, lived in a tent, paid for some industry classes and found a job in a completely different field than I ever worked in. I’ve never collected a SINGLE PENNY of unemployment, wellfare or foodstamps in my life. So please explain to me what exactly I “owe” to society?
I did what I had to do to feed MY family and I’m a felon without a HS diploma. Why can’t someone sitting on wellfare not doing shit with his life do the same thing? What’s his excuse?[/quote]
You’ve got it wrong, mate. We are exploited by government. They owe us.
Government exploits poor people by keeping them dependent on the system. Don’t blame them. They are kept ignorant of this exploitation by government controlled schools and media.[/quote]
You see, I don’t think ANYONE, be it government or individual, owes me ANYTHING. I take responsibility for my SELF, my ACTIONS and my OUTCOMES. The concept that somebody “owes” me something just smacks of entitlement - and we all know where that slippery slope ends…
Sure there are poor people. WHAT’S KEEPING THEM THERE? I was born poor. I went to public school in Baltimore City and didn’t graduate. I watched the same TV shows that everyone else did. I grew up physically abused in a broken home under circumstances that would give you nightmares. But I was NEVER a victim. I never used it as an excuse to be a loser. I learned the lessons, used what was useful and discarded what wasn’t. Making excuses for people deprives them of their VOLITION. It lands them squarely in the “victim mentality” and robs them of their personal power.
ANYONE born in the United States of America who is not mentally retarded has the ability and opportunity to rise above their circumstance. Do you know how many programs, grants, trusts and charities are set up to help disadvantaged people (minority, female, poor, insert “disadvantage” here)? The ONLY thing keeping them where they are is themselves and their daily actions (or non-actions). They simply don’t WANT to change badly enough.
Now why wouldn’t they want to change? Because it ain’t so bad! They get a check every month. They get a roof over their head. They get food stamps. They are comfortable! Take that away and I PROMISE you you’ll see people wake up and realize that they actually have to DO something with their lives and take personal responsibility for their actions. Or else they wont EAT.
[/quote]
People are easily fooled into believing certain things and that is what affects their volition. As far as they are concerned they have only limited choices - the choices politicians and bureaucrats set up for them. They are essentially trapped by the gravitational pull of their own ignorance - and that is not making excuses for them.
The people that can escape that “gravitational pull” are a limited lot. Not many people ever come to the realization that they can change their own destiny and even if some people do ever realize it the chance for success is improbable.[/quote]
I am well aware of the psychology and environmental factors feeding the self limiting beliefs that enable people to stay “stuck”. I was “stuck” for a long time. There are STILL aspects of my self that are not in integrity with my chosen values and beliefs. Getting through the bullshit is like emptying a lake one bucket at a time - it’s a LONG TERM project! Having said that, it’s a project that ANYONE can undertake at anytime.
However, having lifted myself and my life up from a pretty shitty start (I was in prison until age 22), I really don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for those who choose to stay there. And my political beliefs reflect that. I’ve taken YEARS to analyze it and I’ve concluded that the system of entitlement, wellfare and socialism (the so-called “safety net” for the lower class) played a very large role in how my early life was shaped. Couple that with my insane mother’s promiscuity and blatant lying and manipulation of our country’s pathetic family law system (effectively eliminating any access to my father who was a FAR more responsible person) and the end result is an angry young man with antisocial tendencies. HOWEVER, once I became an adult and had control of my life, I was able to steer it in a positive direction.
I don’t blame younger people who grow up in shitty situations for making shitty decisions. That’s why I made such a big deal in that other thread about that 18 year old getting a 164 year sentence. But when a person gets a little older and away from their parents and lives life for a few years, then they KNOW what their options are. They are exposed to PLENTY of possibilities and have exposure to the idea that there is great big world out there beyond their current circumstance. They have the time and opportunity to shore up the weaknesses or disadvantages from their childhoods. I have known MANY single mothers who worked two jobs and put themselves through school. Some of them took 8 years to do it. And while they aren’t “successful” by society’s definition of the word, they are stable and happy and I consider their journey to be inspirational. If a person is single, isn’t responsible for the daily care of kids and STILL chooses to remain in their current circumstance I have NO fucking sympathy whatsoever.
In this day and age, the “gravity” as you accurately put it, is simply not that difficult to overcome. All it takes is to WANT it bad enough and to PERSEVERE. If you don’t WANT it bad enough and aren’t willing to WORK towards a goal, then I’m sorry, you don’t DESERVE to rise above your circumstance. And I DAMN sure don’t want MY hard earned tax dollars propping up your pathetic little excuse for a life.