[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
another thing is, if it doesn’t affect you and someone else has a happiness or satisfaction from something, why do you want to destroy it or ruin it for them?
[/quote]
Goethe said something along the lines of “He who possesses science and art, also has religion; but he who has neither of these two, let him have religion!”
OctoberGirl, the title of the thread is “Do you believe in God?” As I understand it, forums are a place where ideas can be shared, discussed, developed and attacked. I quoted Adams because he is a lucid thinker and a brilliant writer, and although I could have paraphrased his message, there is little point in doing so and I thought others would find it interesting.
It was not an attempt to claim intellectual backing or rank or any other kind of appeal to authority. Besides, it’s not like the guy is some academic snob or even an authority on the subject – he’s a science fiction comedy writer who happens to state the point I was wishing to make very well. Forums are for sharing and discussing ideas but it appears to me that you are not interested.
[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
The New Guy wrote:
That’s ridiculous, nonbelief is the null hypothesis. Atheists don’t have any faith in their conviction because they don’t have a conviction. Of course is there was proof for God everybody would believe in him, but by his very nature he can’t be disproven.
It might be ridiculous, but some atheists do have a lot of conviction. For example: the atheist who went to court to have “under god” taken out of the pledge of allegiance so his kid’s mind wouldn’t be warped, or something. Or, check out Christopher Hitchens’ God is Not Great: The Case Against Religion. You don’t have to actually read the book, just look at the title. Hitchens is a smart guy, but fanatically anti-faith.[/quote]
Some atheists do have a lot of conviction, but they do not have faith. You don’t need faith to disbelieve something unproven, or that appears to you to be a logical fallacy.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
nephorm wrote:
…
One thing is absolutely clear: it is impossible for a human being to intellect God.
I do believe in God, and I do believe neph hit it on the head with the above.[/quote]
As far as the human mind discovering God goes, I’m not sure if I accept it being this simple. I know that these are some stretch stipulations, but if the human mind was created by some God for the purpose of knowing him (her/it/whatever), I think that it would be just as possible to discover god intellectually as it would be to use any other thing for its intended purpose.
Yes, I know that this condition is stupulated in a bunch of other stuff, but I haven’t yet been convinced that if there is a God, that this God would have no position in the human mind. Besides, even the fact that we can think about it is intellecting it on a certain level. I think that the real question is, if there is a God, on what level and by what means do we have that knowledge.
Oh, and how do we define ‘intellect’? Is this a priori knowledge? To what extent can it come through experience? Can it be divinely revealed? Does nature reveal things about God?
[quote]Gael wrote:
OctoberGirl, the title of the thread is “Do you believe in God?” As I understand it, forums are a place where ideas can be shared, discussed, developed and attacked. I quoted Adams because he is a lucid thinker and a brilliant writer, and although I could have paraphrased his message, there is little point in doing so and I thought others would find it interesting. It was not an attempt to claim intellectual backing or rank or any other kind of appeal to authority. Besides, it’s not like the guy is some academic snob or even an authority on the subject – he’s a science fiction comedy writer who happens to state the point I was wishing to make very well. Forums are for sharing and discussing ideas but it appears to me that you are not interested.[/quote]
As it appeared to me that you aren’t so much interested in discussing YOUR belief and just answering the question as it appears you just wish to dismiss the belief of someone else.
did you miss the part where I shared what I believe and answered the thread question?
Perhaps we have both misunderstood each other.
I think it is irrelevant honestly.
I myself am a big fan of gods and goddesses and religion and all that. The great thing about gods is that there are so many choices. No matter who you are, you can likely find a god that suits you perfectly. I have been searching my whole life for the ideal god and have found him in kokpelli, the Native American trickster spirit of music, fertility, and of the phallus.
You can read about him here:
[quote]The mysterious Kokopelli character is found in a number of Native American cultures, being especially prominent in the Anazasi culture of the “Four Corners” area. The figure represents a mischievous trickster or the Minstrel, spirit of music. Kokopelli is distinguished by his dancing pose, a hunchback and flute. His whimsical nature, charitable deeds, and vital spirit give him a prominent position in Native American mysticism.
Kokopelli is considered a symbol of fertility who brought well-being to the people, assuring success in hunting, planting and growing crops, and human conception. His “hump” was often considered a bag of gifts, a sack carrying the seeds of plants and flowers he would scatter every spring. Warming the earth by playing his flute and singing songs, Kokopelli would melt the winter snow and create rain, ensuring a good harvest. Kokopelli often displayed a long phallus, symbolizing the fertile seeds of human reproduction. [/quote]
Kokopelli is indeed mischievous. Sometimes he leaves his phallus in streams of water where it impregnates unsuspecting girls. For this reason, many fear him. But he is loved because he brings about fertility to humans and crops alike.
[quote]Gael wrote:
I myself am a big fan of gods and goddesses and religion and all that. The great thing about gods is that there are so many choices. No matter who you are, you can likely find a god that suits you perfectly. I have been searching my whole life for the ideal god and have found him in kokpelli, the Native American trickster spirit of music, fertility, and of the phallus.
You can read about him here:
The mysterious Kokopelli character is found in a number of Native American cultures, being especially prominent in the Anazasi culture of the “Four Corners” area. The figure represents a mischievous trickster or the Minstrel, spirit of music. Kokopelli is distinguished by his dancing pose, a hunchback and flute. His whimsical nature, charitable deeds, and vital spirit give him a prominent position in Native American mysticism.
Kokopelli is considered a symbol of fertility who brought well-being to the people, assuring success in hunting, planting and growing crops, and human conception. His “hump” was often considered a bag of gifts, a sack carrying the seeds of plants and flowers he would scatter every spring. Warming the earth by playing his flute and singing songs, Kokopelli would melt the winter snow and create rain, ensuring a good harvest. Kokopelli often displayed a long phallus, symbolizing the fertile seeds of human reproduction.
Kokopelli is indeed mischievous. Sometimes he leaves his phallus in streams of water where it impregnates unsuspecting girls. For this reason, many fear him. But he is loved because he brings about fertility to humans and crops alike.[/quote]
So do you actually have faith or worship him and go through any types of sacraments or is it more of that if you were to choose a god, this would be the one you would choose?
Although I don’t know what I believe I can certainly see an attraction to picking a God or Goddess that would more represent what I would want.
If I were a farmer it would probably be a different one than a soldier if we were choosing gods with specialty areas.
But I don’t think that is where my spirituality is heading these days. I just think about what it is and try for some understanding.
…agreed, whether god really exists is irrelevant…
“It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” Thomas Jefferson
I tolerate all religions and belief systems, insofar as they attempt neither to pick my pocket nor break my leg as a penalty for not sharing that religion or belief system.
Strangely enough, this roughly mirrors my feeling about government policies.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Renton’s answer to Gael and orion and EE are very much what I would have said.
I respect a person of faith and belief. I don’t have to agree with it, I don’t have to believe it, it is just a quality unto itself and if you can’t understand it is possible you don’t want to and you just want to nitpick.
EE I don’t know why you feel the need to argue with someone about their belief. What does it matter to you? Don’t try and blow smoke up my ass and say you were just curious. You weren’t. What you wanted was to point fingers and call a believer “brain washed”.
Just accept it might not be your belief and no one is asking you to convert.
I don’t know what I believe yet but I think about it often.[/quote]
I am genuinely interested in what someone believes, if they say they beleive in god but that they are not religious, the idea of a god exsisiting was created in conjunction with the first religions and gods have featured in almost all religions that have been created since.
So to believe in god but to not follow any religious teachings must mean that you have devised your own personal belief in what God is.
I would not argue or mock someone for explaining their pesonal beliefs, for example I have a frined who genuinely belives the whole universe is in like a little snow globe on the desk of an alien god like being, and that the whole universe is as insignificant as one simple ornament. I have never argued this with him becuase i totally respect that belief, he has derived at that himself.
I might say to people who worship the cristian god and follow the Christian faith some derogatory things about their religion, but I reguarlly have to listen to Christians telling me how to life my life according to their faith, so why can I not have the same freedom to point out the infalabilities of that faith.
Should the term apatheist not be used for someone that thinks that there is a god that just does not care?
That was actually my first choice of meaning for the term (someone who believes that God just doesn’t give a shit), but I think the other definition (someone who doesn’t give a shit one way or another about God) has wider application.
[quote]subdivision wrote:
As far as the human mind discovering God goes, I’m not sure if I accept it being this simple. I know that these are some stretch stipulations, but if the human mind was created by some God for the purpose of knowing him (her/it/whatever), I think that it would be just as possible to discover god intellectually as it would be to use any other thing for its intended purpose.
[/quote]
The first insurmountable problem is that the human mind is finite, and the universe, if not infinite, seems to be larger than our capacity to intellect it. That is, we are not given to know the whole.
Well, the best you can hope for is to intellect the effects that emanate from such a being. You can certainly attempt to understand God, but I would submit that it is misguided to attempt to do so directly. Shouldn’t we begin from the natural sciences, mathematics, and nature, and then progress to philosophy and metaphysics? That is, the world appears to be orderly and hierarchical, so shouldn’t we study that order, and having understood it completely, then turn to metaphysics?
[quote]
Oh, and how do we define ‘intellect’? Is this a priori knowledge? To what extent can it come through experience? Can it be divinely revealed? Does nature reveal things about God? [/quote]
No, not a priori knowledge. Rather, to “intellect” is to have mentally seized all of a being. For instance, I am sure you’ve worked on a mathematical problem, in which the general form for the solution of like problems has just jumped out at you. This is a form of intellecting, as a verb.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
But doesn’t an atheist have just as much faith in his conviction that there is no god?
In my estimation, most people who call themselves atheists should more properly be referred to as apatheists: people who just don’t give a shit one way or another about god.
[/quote]
Yes. I believe all knowledge must ultimately come down to faith – whether that is a belief in god or lack of god. How do I know what I observe is real?
To your latter point: that pretty much defines my position. I don’t care and I if god does exist, so what?!
[quote]electric_eales wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Renton’s answer to Gael and orion and EE are very much what I would have said.
I respect a person of faith and belief. I don’t have to agree with it, I don’t have to believe it, it is just a quality unto itself and if you can’t understand it is possible you don’t want to and you just want to nitpick.
EE I don’t know why you feel the need to argue with someone about their belief. What does it matter to you? Don’t try and blow smoke up my ass and say you were just curious. You weren’t. What you wanted was to point fingers and call a believer “brain washed”.
Just accept it might not be your belief and no one is asking you to convert.
I don’t know what I believe yet but I think about it often.
I am genuinely interested in what someone believes, if they say they beleive in god but that they are not religious, the idea of a god exsisiting was created in conjunction with the first religions and gods have featured in almost all religions that have been created since.
So to believe in god but to not follow any religious teachings must mean that you have devised your own personal belief in what God is.
I would not argue or mock someone for explaining their pesonal beliefs, for example I have a frined who genuinely belives the whole universe is in like a little snow globe on the desk of an alien god like being, and that the whole universe is as insignificant as one simple ornament. I have never argued this with him becuase i totally respect that belief, he has derived at that himself.
I might say to people who worship the cristian god and follow the Christian faith some derogatory things about their religion, but I reguarlly have to listen to Christians telling me how to life my life according to their faith, so why can I not have the same freedom to point out the infalabilities of that faith.
[/quote]
Do you really want to understand though or do you want someone to profer their reasonings so you can take a kick through it?
Your last sentence is implying that you may not have an open mind in regards to the subject. Do you and I just haven’t gotten that yet?
Discussion for understanding is great. Discussion to just wail and lambast is a waste of time.
[quote]electric_eales wrote:
I think as humans we surpassed aourselves as soon as we became intelegent enough to question our own exsistance.
I think we had it good as cavemen, eating sleeping and fucking, thats basically what its all about.
Look at monkey’s those guys are having a fucking great crack, slinging poo around, fucking and eating all day, and not one of them sitting there thinking to themself ‘mmm I wonder how all this came to be’
As a species we have become to intellegnet for our own good andnow we have fucked up the whole sex food and sleep party[/quote]
Outlaw crack.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Renton’s answer to Gael and orion and EE are very much what I would have said.
I respect a person of faith and belief. I don’t have to agree with it, I don’t have to believe it, it is just a quality unto itself and if you can’t understand it is possible you don’t want to and you just want to nitpick.
EE I don’t know why you feel the need to argue with someone about their belief. What does it matter to you? Don’t try and blow smoke up my ass and say you were just curious. You weren’t. What you wanted was to point fingers and call a believer “brain washed”.
Just accept it might not be your belief and no one is asking you to convert.
I don’t know what I believe yet but I think about it often.
I am genuinely interested in what someone believes, if they say they beleive in god but that they are not religious, the idea of a god exsisiting was created in conjunction with the first religions and gods have featured in almost all religions that have been created since.
So to believe in god but to not follow any religious teachings must mean that you have devised your own personal belief in what God is.
I would not argue or mock someone for explaining their pesonal beliefs, for example I have a frined who genuinely belives the whole universe is in like a little snow globe on the desk of an alien god like being, and that the whole universe is as insignificant as one simple ornament. I have never argued this with him becuase i totally respect that belief, he has derived at that himself.
I might say to people who worship the cristian god and follow the Christian faith some derogatory things about their religion, but I reguarlly have to listen to Christians telling me how to life my life according to their faith, so why can I not have the same freedom to point out the infalabilities of that faith.
Do you really want to understand though or do you want someone to profer their reasonings so you can take a kick through it?
Your last sentence is implying that you may not have an open mind in regards to the subject. Do you and I just haven’t gotten that yet?
Discussion for understanding is great. Discussion to just wail and lambast is a waste of time.
[/quote]
I admit that I am derogatory towards people that conform to religious beliefs and follow these ‘orders’ without question.
I am also derogatory about the Christian version of god, if we look at the original and true image of god from the bible, it is basically a god who looks like man (as he created man in his own image) who has absoloute power over us, I like to question that belief and sometimes this comes across as offemsive to people who do believe.
As far as wanting to know what you are say Rainjack believes i am genuiinley interested what conclusions you have come to, and i have absoloutly no intention of arguing against it, beilieving in god without conforming to any religion is interesting to me becuase my next question would be, what value do you get from believing in a god? Does holding this belief enhance your life in anyway?
I know that Christians get a lot of solace from believing in heaven and it is reasurring to believe that dead loved ones have passed on to a better place and are in someway still exsisting, and can also see our contiued exsistance in this life. And personally I can really see the appeal in this, i have lost loved ones too and it is very nice to think that they have gone to heaven. It does spook me out a bit though because if it is true and there is a god in heaven then he can watch me wank and thats creepy.
But if you do not believe in heaven what do you get from believing in a god?
I have an open mind maybe the matrix film reflects our true exsitance I doubt none of us will ever know.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
I think as humans we surpassed aourselves as soon as we became intelegent enough to question our own exsistance.
I think we had it good as cavemen, eating sleeping and fucking, thats basically what its all about.
Look at monkey’s those guys are having a fucking great crack, slinging poo around, fucking and eating all day, and not one of them sitting there thinking to themself ‘mmm I wonder how all this came to be’
As a species we have become to intellegnet for our own good andnow we have fucked up the whole sex food and sleep party
Outlaw crack.
[/quote]
Is it ‘inlaw’ where you live?
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Renton’s answer to Gael and orion and EE are very much what I would have said.
I respect a person of faith and belief. I don’t have to agree with it, I don’t have to believe it, it is just a quality unto itself and if you can’t understand it is possible you don’t want to and you just want to nitpick.
EE I don’t know why you feel the need to argue with someone about their belief. What does it matter to you? Don’t try and blow smoke up my ass and say you were just curious. You weren’t. What you wanted was to point fingers and call a believer “brain washed”.
Just accept it might not be your belief and no one is asking you to convert.
I don’t know what I believe yet but I think about it often.
I am genuinely interested in what someone believes, if they say they beleive in god but that they are not religious, the idea of a god exsisiting was created in conjunction with the first religions and gods have featured in almost all religions that have been created since.
So to believe in god but to not follow any religious teachings must mean that you have devised your own personal belief in what God is.
I would not argue or mock someone for explaining their pesonal beliefs, for example I have a frined who genuinely belives the whole universe is in like a little snow globe on the desk of an alien god like being, and that the whole universe is as insignificant as one simple ornament. I have never argued this with him becuase i totally respect that belief, he has derived at that himself.
I might say to people who worship the cristian god and follow the Christian faith some derogatory things about their religion, but I reguarlly have to listen to Christians telling me how to life my life according to their faith, so why can I not have the same freedom to point out the infalabilities of that faith.
Do you really want to understand though or do you want someone to profer their reasonings so you can take a kick through it?
Your last sentence is implying that you may not have an open mind in regards to the subject. Do you and I just haven’t gotten that yet?
Discussion for understanding is great. Discussion to just wail and lambast is a waste of time.
[/quote]
October Girl,
You’re trying to have a discussion with someone who thinks throwing his feces and living in the tree tops is an ideal life. He also couldn’t write a coherent sentence to save his life.
Good luck with that.