[quote]bald eagle wrote:
orion wrote:
Electric_E wrote:
bald eagle wrote:
Electric E,
You seem very angry over past experiences in your life. That is understandable but do not blame God when bad things happen. I do not have the time to go in depth tonight but consider the following when it comes to God and whether or not He exists:
Just look at creation and how it all works. When you consider the complexity of the universe it takes far more faith to believe in something else other than a Creator. Tide comes in - tide goes out. Or, the human body and all of it complexities. To think that the human body just evolved over time is too much of a stretch for me.
We can look at the animal world and how the different species have their own unique charateristics that allow their survival. For instance, the elephant’s ears work as radiators to keep it cool. Or how some animals change colors to hide from its prey. These things all point to a “Designer”.
As far as the bad things that happen to people that is something I would be happy to discuss. I am not some “religious guy” just someone who believes in God and His Som Jesus Christ.
The evidence also points to His existence as well.
You sound like the sort of person that goes around knocking on doors
It has been posted before, but this is just too good.
Apparently Mormons to not react kindly when bothered Saturday mornings.
I am neither a Morman or a Jehovahs Witness and I don’t like being bothered on Saturday mornings either. I am simply someone who happens to believe the Bible. Call me crazy, but I think anyone who buys into evolution will buy into anything.
[/quote]
[quote]pookie wrote:
pat wrote:
Now that is truly funny…We ought to start a Guinea Pig fighting ring. Raise really mean guineas and teach them how to fight. If they don’t fight, then who ever squeaks the loudest wins.
I really would like to see a mean guinea pig. These animals are so docile you wonder how they ever managed to survive in the wild.
[/quote]
We could pump a gram of testosterone into them. If that wouldn’t do it nothing will. I couldn’t do that to mine, especially since they are girls.
I guess they hide well, and fuck like rabbits. That’s the only way I figure they can survive. That and something high in the food chain is taking out their natural predators.
They do look awful tasty to meat eaters. I had Lily sitting on my lap and my idiot dog came up sniffing around and out of nowhere took a leap and a nip at the pig. I beat the holy hell out of that dog that day. You don’t fuck with my pigs.
[quote]bald eagle wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…bald eagle, a couple of questions for you:
Why do you need the reward of eternal life in heaven to lead a good life?
Why do you presume to know what is good for other’s?
Beliefs are culturally bound: why do you think one set of beliefs are more valid than the next?
Why do you believe in God and not in Zeus [or Krom]?
The quality of my life is not dependant on beliefs: yours is? Why?
…thanks in advance…
Hey ephrem, thanks for the questions.
It is not that I need the reward of Heaven. But once you believe in a Holy God who created all things then one must accept His plan. And His plan is one that calls for a Savior. The Bible also speaks of Heaven and Hell as being real places. The Bible does not teach that leading a good life will get you into Heaven, rather it teaches faith in Christ and forgiveness of sins as being the only way.
I don’t. But if I believe the Bible then I also believe that all people are in need of a Savior in order to gain eternal life in Heaven.
All religions can’t be right. Christianity is the only one based on an eternal God who created all things. All other religions are based on a prophet or an invented god.
There is simply no other plausible explanation for this universe other than creation and that takes a Creator.
I would not say that the quality of my life is dependent on my beliefs but rather my purpose. We are all made in the image of God and we were created for a purpose. We were made to worhsip something.
[/quote]
…thank you for answering bald eagle…
You do realise that this means that a person can be sincerely honest, kind, generous, loving and a great friend and still wind up in hell for not believing in God? It also means that a person can be a liar and a cheat, selfish, greedy, hateful and fake all his life and still go to heaven because of a deathbed conversion? Do you think that is fair?
Assuming everyone wants eternal life in heaven, ofcourse. I for one don’t want eternal life, especially if that means spending it in constant servitude to God. Eternity is a long time, why do you want to live forever?
This may be a lack of knowledge regarding other religions on your part, but i’m certain most, if not all, other religions share the same aspects of christianity you mentioned.
I think it was pookie who said: [paraphrasing] to explain the mysterious vastness of the universe, you believe in an even more mysterious and greater being? The suspension of reason is commonplace in religious beliefs, but how do you reconcile this contradiction?
[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
bald eagle wrote:
orion wrote:
Electric_E wrote:
bald eagle wrote:
Electric E,
You seem very angry over past experiences in your life. That is understandable but do not blame God when bad things happen. I do not have the time to go in depth tonight but consider the following when it comes to God and whether or not He exists:
Just look at creation and how it all works. When you consider the complexity of the universe it takes far more faith to believe in something else other than a Creator. Tide comes in - tide goes out. Or, the human body and all of it complexities. To think that the human body just evolved over time is too much of a stretch for me.
We can look at the animal world and how the different species have their own unique charateristics that allow their survival. For instance, the elephant’s ears work as radiators to keep it cool. Or how some animals change colors to hide from its prey. These things all point to a “Designer”.
As far as the bad things that happen to people that is something I would be happy to discuss. I am not some “religious guy” just someone who believes in God and His Som Jesus Christ.
The evidence also points to His existence as well.
You sound like the sort of person that goes around knocking on doors
It has been posted before, but this is just too good.
Apparently Mormons to not react kindly when bothered Saturday mornings.
I am neither a Morman or a Jehovahs Witness and I don’t like being bothered on Saturday mornings either. I am simply someone who happens to believe the Bible. Call me crazy, but I think anyone who buys into evolution will buy into anything.
You’re crazy.[/quote]
Hey, I have a sense of humor. However, like I said previously, I have nothing to lose by being wrong. But I am certainly not going to ridicule anyone for disagreeing with me. Dialogue is good. I am always interested in why someone does not believe in God. Although I am rather skeptical when someone says that. You have to wonder if there is a God - don’t you???
[quote]bald eagle wrote:
orion wrote:
Electric_E wrote:
bald eagle wrote:
Electric E,
You seem very angry over past experiences in your life. That is understandable but do not blame God when bad things happen. I do not have the time to go in depth tonight but consider the following when it comes to God and whether or not He exists:
Just look at creation and how it all works. When you consider the complexity of the universe it takes far more faith to believe in something else other than a Creator. Tide comes in - tide goes out. Or, the human body and all of it complexities. To think that the human body just evolved over time is too much of a stretch for me.
We can look at the animal world and how the different species have their own unique charateristics that allow their survival. For instance, the elephant’s ears work as radiators to keep it cool. Or how some animals change colors to hide from its prey. These things all point to a “Designer”.
As far as the bad things that happen to people that is something I would be happy to discuss. I am not some “religious guy” just someone who believes in God and His Som Jesus Christ.
The evidence also points to His existence as well.
You sound like the sort of person that goes around knocking on doors
It has been posted before, but this is just too good.
Apparently Mormons to not react kindly when bothered Saturday mornings.
I am neither a Morman or a Jehovahs Witness and I don’t like being bothered on Saturday mornings either. I am simply someone who happens to believe the Bible. Call me crazy, but I think anyone who buys into evolution will buy into anything.
[/quote]
I believe in God and evolution…I do not see why the two have to be mutually exclusive…One does not discount the other.
…most people will wonder, yes. Some do from time to time, other’s spend their whole life wondering, and plenty of people settle [imo] for beliefs. Beliefs are easy; you have them and every question is answered. But what if that’s not enough?
I can be a hindu and be equally satisfied with my beliefs, and that is the difficult part to accept for most believers: that it does not matter what you believe, for how those beliefs make you feel is the same…
…to answer your question: i’ve wondered if there is a god, and i’ve reached the conclusion that god is irrelevant…
[quote]ephrem wrote:
bald eagle wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…bald eagle, a couple of questions for you:
Why do you need the reward of eternal life in heaven to lead a good life?
Why do you presume to know what is good for other’s?
Beliefs are culturally bound: why do you think one set of beliefs are more valid than the next?
Why do you believe in God and not in Zeus [or Krom]?
The quality of my life is not dependant on beliefs: yours is? Why?
…thanks in advance…
Hey ephrem, thanks for the questions.
It is not that I need the reward of Heaven. But once you believe in a Holy God who created all things then one must accept His plan. And His plan is one that calls for a Savior. The Bible also speaks of Heaven and Hell as being real places. The Bible does not teach that leading a good life will get you into Heaven, rather it teaches faith in Christ and forgiveness of sins as being the only way.
I don’t. But if I believe the Bible then I also believe that all people are in need of a Savior in order to gain eternal life in Heaven.
All religions can’t be right. Christianity is the only one based on an eternal God who created all things. All other religions are based on a prophet or an invented god.
There is simply no other plausible explanation for this universe other than creation and that takes a Creator.
I would not say that the quality of my life is dependent on my beliefs but rather my purpose. We are all made in the image of God and we were created for a purpose. We were made to worhsip something.
…thank you for answering bald eagle…
You do realise that this means that a person can be sincerely honest, kind, generous, loving and a great friend and still wind up in hell for not believing in God? It also means that a person can be a liar and a cheat, selfish, greedy, hateful and fake all his life and still go to heaven because of a deathbed conversion? Do you think that is fair?
Assuming everyone wants eternal life in heaven, ofcourse. I for one don’t want eternal life, especially if that means spending it in constant servitude to God. Eternity is a long time, why do you want to live forever?
This may be a lack of knowledge regarding other religions on your part, but i’m certain most, if not all, other religions share the same aspects of christianity you mentioned.
I think it was pookie who said: [paraphrasing] to explain the mysterious vastness of the universe, you believe in an even more mysterious and greater being? The suspension of reason is commonplace in religious beliefs, but how do you reconcile this contradiction?
Why does God need worshipping? [/quote]
ephrem,
I appreciate the dialogue. You seem like a good guy. Let me deal with number one for now.
It may seem unfair on the surface, but everyone has lied. Everyone has had bad thoughts about someone. Everyone has been greedy or selfish to some degree. Don’t you think it would be unfair to always wonder if you have been “good enough” or have done enough good things? How would you ever know?
Someone would spend their whole life wondering if they “tipped the scales”. God has made it simple. Simply ask forgiveness and accept what Christ did on the cross. There is no guessing, no wondering if you have done enough. That seems very fair to me. It would seem unfair to me to always wonder if I had done enough good to overcome the bad. How could someone ever have true peace?
[quote]pat wrote:
bald eagle wrote:
orion wrote:
Electric_E wrote:
bald eagle wrote:
Electric E,
You seem very angry over past experiences in your life. That is understandable but do not blame God when bad things happen. I do not have the time to go in depth tonight but consider the following when it comes to God and whether or not He exists:
Just look at creation and how it all works. When you consider the complexity of the universe it takes far more faith to believe in something else other than a Creator. Tide comes in - tide goes out. Or, the human body and all of it complexities. To think that the human body just evolved over time is too much of a stretch for me.
We can look at the animal world and how the different species have their own unique charateristics that allow their survival. For instance, the elephant’s ears work as radiators to keep it cool. Or how some animals change colors to hide from its prey. These things all point to a “Designer”.
As far as the bad things that happen to people that is something I would be happy to discuss. I am not some “religious guy” just someone who believes in God and His Som Jesus Christ.
The evidence also points to His existence as well.
You sound like the sort of person that goes around knocking on doors
It has been posted before, but this is just too good.
Apparently Mormons to not react kindly when bothered Saturday mornings.
I am neither a Morman or a Jehovahs Witness and I don’t like being bothered on Saturday mornings either. I am simply someone who happens to believe the Bible. Call me crazy, but I think anyone who buys into evolution will buy into anything.
I believe in God and evolution…I do not see why the two have to be mutually exclusive…One does not discount the other.[/quote]
hey pat,
I know there are those who believe God used the evolution process to create the universe. Is that what you are referring to?
…but i don’t always wonder if i’ve been good enough, infact, i never wonder like that. You forget that Christianity made this proposition and subsequently offered a solution to the problem, which turned out to be one of the best marketing ideas in history, but it doesn’t make it true or applicable to everyone…
…if the uncovering of true peace within ones self would be attainable through a beliefsystem, then were are all the happy people at?
[quote]bald eagle wrote:
I believe in God and evolution…I do not see why the two have to be mutually exclusive…One does not discount the other.
hey pat,
I know there are those who believe God used the evolution process to create the universe. Is that what you are referring to?
[/quote]
I do not know what they said, so I do not know if what they say is in agreement with my theory. It is my theory that since everything that exists was caused by something else. Trace back the causes and effect relationships back to their source and at some point there has to be an uncaused cause or an unmoved mover. Something that initiates but in itself is not part of the process. Evolution would be part of that process as something caused evolution to take place. (I stole this notion from Aristotle and other philosophers, I didn’t come up with it on my own.)
I do not look at the bible as a historical book or an archaeological book, i.e. a book of facts. It is a philosophical book explaining God. Sometimes it uses stories sometimes it uses facts sometimes it uses both.
Mary is depicted as being present during the crucifixion standing near “the disciple whom Jesus loved” along with her sister Mary of Clopas (possibly identical with the mother of James the younger and Joseph mentioned in Matthew 27:55, cf. Mark 15:40), and Mary Magdalene (John 19:25-26), to which list Matthew 27:56 adds “the mother of the sons of Zebedee”, presumably the Salome mentioned in Mark 15:40, and other women who had followed Jesus from Galilee and ministered to him (mentioned in Matthew and Mark). Mary, cradling the dead body of her Son, while not recorded in the Gospel accounts, is a common motif in art, called a "pietà " or “pity”.
Is this statement true?
I cannot really work out where they are saying it states in the bible that Mary was actually at the crucifixtion
[quote]ephrem wrote:
bald eagle wrote: It may seem unfair on the surface, but everyone has lied. Everyone has had bad thoughts about someone. Everyone has been greedy or selfish to some degree. Don’t you think it would be unfair to always wonder if you have been “good enough” or have done enough good things? How would you ever know? Someone would spend their whole life wondering if they “tipped the scales”. God has made it simple. Simply ask forgiveness and accept what Christ did on the cross. There is no guessing, no wondering if you have done enough. That seems very fair to me. It would seem unfair to me to always wonder if I had done enough good to overcome the bad. How could someone ever have true peace?
…but i don’t always wonder if i’ve been good enough, infact, i never wonder like that. You forget that Christianity made this proposition and subsequently offered a solution to the problem, which turned out to be one of the best marketing ideas in history, but it doesn’t make it true or applicable to everyone…
…if the uncovering of true peace within ones self would be attainable through a beliefsystem, then were are all the happy people at?
[/quote]
ephrem,
two questions,
What religion/belief system do you subscribe to?
What if the Bible is true and there is only Heaven or Hell as the only two options at the end of life. Are you telling me you still do not care about that?
[quote]Electric_E wrote:
Mary is depicted as being present during the crucifixion standing near “the disciple whom Jesus loved” along with her sister Mary of Clopas (possibly identical with the mother of James the younger and Joseph mentioned in Matthew 27:55, cf. Mark 15:40), and Mary Magdalene (John 19:25-26), to which list Matthew 27:56 adds “the mother of the sons of Zebedee”, presumably the Salome mentioned in Mark 15:40, and other women who had followed Jesus from Galilee and ministered to him (mentioned in Matthew and Mark). Mary, cradling the dead body of her Son, while not recorded in the Gospel accounts, is a common motif in art, called a "pietà " or “pity”.
Is this statement true?
I cannot really work out where they are saying it states in the bible that Mary was actually at the crucifixtion[/quote]
[quote]bald eagle wrote:
Electric_E wrote:
Mary is depicted as being present during the crucifixion standing near “the disciple whom Jesus loved” along with her sister Mary of Clopas (possibly identical with the mother of James the younger and Joseph mentioned in Matthew 27:55, cf. Mark 15:40), and Mary Magdalene (John 19:25-26), to which list Matthew 27:56 adds “the mother of the sons of Zebedee”, presumably the Salome mentioned in Mark 15:40, and other women who had followed Jesus from Galilee and ministered to him (mentioned in Matthew and Mark). Mary, cradling the dead body of her Son, while not recorded in the Gospel accounts, is a common motif in art, called a "pietà " or “pity”.
Is this statement true?
I cannot really work out where they are saying it states in the bible that Mary was actually at the crucifixtion
Electric e,
Where are you headed with this? I’m curious.
[/quote]
I am trying to ascertain if jesus’s mother witnessed his crucifiction, Pookie explained:
"John 19:25 - Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
John’s is the only Gospel that explicitly mentions Mary (his mother) being there."
so I sent this information that Pookie wrote to someone (with whom I am arguing this point) and they sent me back my orinigal quotation to try to say that she was actually at the crucifiction
[quote]bald eagle wrote:
ephrem wrote:
bald eagle wrote: It may seem unfair on the surface, but everyone has lied. Everyone has had bad thoughts about someone. Everyone has been greedy or selfish to some degree. Don’t you think it would be unfair to always wonder if you have been “good enough” or have done enough good things? How would you ever know? Someone would spend their whole life wondering if they “tipped the scales”. God has made it simple. Simply ask forgiveness and accept what Christ did on the cross. There is no guessing, no wondering if you have done enough. That seems very fair to me. It would seem unfair to me to always wonder if I had done enough good to overcome the bad. How could someone ever have true peace?
…but i don’t always wonder if i’ve been good enough, infact, i never wonder like that. You forget that Christianity made this proposition and subsequently offered a solution to the problem, which turned out to be one of the best marketing ideas in history, but it doesn’t make it true or applicable to everyone…
…if the uncovering of true peace within ones self would be attainable through a beliefsystem, then were are all the happy people at?
ephrem,
two questions,
What religion/belief system do you subscribe to?
What if the Bible is true and there is only Heaven or Hell as the only two options at the end of life. Are you telling me you still do not care about that?[/quote]
None. I was baptised though, Roman Catholic. Even was a choirboy a couple of times, but quit because it was too boring. Nowadays i could be considered atheïst, and the only moral code i go by is my conscience and heart…
Yes, i still do not care about that. Suppose the Bible is true and after i die i’m judged not on my actions, but on my lack of belief and sent to hell because of that lack, i’ll be happy to burn in hell. Such a God does not deserve my respect, or anyone else’s for that matter…
[quote]pat wrote:
I guess they hide well, and fuck like rabbits. That’s the only way I figure they can survive. That and something high in the food chain is taking out their natural predators.[/quote]
Yup, they run fast and reproduce faster.
They’re actually very good at evasive manoeuvres. We’ve got a fairly large cage with a few tunnels (PVC pipes) and when we go to pick them up, they run these complex patterns around the cage. I imagine that a herd of them scattering in all directions pretty much guarantees that a predator won’t catch more than one or two at a time.
As far as fighting goes, I’ve got two males and while they do fight a little to establish dominance, it seems a lot more symbolic than real fighting. I’ve read that some males will fight hard enough for fur to fly and blood to flow, but so far I haven’t seen anything remotely close to that.
[quote]bald eagle wrote:
You have to wonder if there is a God - don’t you???[/quote]
Of course.
Just as most have probably wondered about the reality of ghosts, psychics powers, telepathy, remote viewing, astrology, etc.
At some point, you accept or refuse to accept each of those things based on (hopefully) evidence; or on personal feelings and belief.
As for God, I feel that there are more indications of there being no God than there are that one actually exists. The problem of evil is particularly hard to reconcile with the typical image of an all-loving God. While it’s not the only thing that has me seriously doubting his existence, it’s probably the most damning.
[quote]Electric_E wrote:
Mary is depicted as being present during the crucifixion standing near “the disciple whom Jesus loved” along with her sister Mary of Clopas (possibly identical with the mother of James the younger and Joseph mentioned in Matthew 27:55, cf. Mark 15:40), and Mary Magdalene (John 19:25-26), to which list Matthew 27:56 adds “the mother of the sons of Zebedee”, presumably the Salome mentioned in Mark 15:40, and other women who had followed Jesus from Galilee and ministered to him (mentioned in Matthew and Mark). Mary, cradling the dead body of her Son, while not recorded in the Gospel accounts, is a common motif in art, called a "pietà " or “pity”.
Is this statement true?
I cannot really work out where they are saying it states in the bible that Mary was actually at the crucifixtion[/quote]
It’s true, but it’s not precise. They don’t mention John’s gospel - the only one who specifically refers to “Mary his mother.” There were a busload of Marys present at the crucifixion (apparently, every woman and her sister was named Mary at that time.)
You asked for a quote from the Bible. John 19:25 is it.
Wikipedia is not the Bible. Pieta illustrations are not the Bible either.
So Mary being present is supported in the Bible. Mary cradling her dead son is not.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Electric_E wrote:
Mary is depicted as being present during the crucifixion standing near “the disciple whom Jesus loved” along with her sister Mary of Clopas (possibly identical with the mother of James the younger and Joseph mentioned in Matthew 27:55, cf. Mark 15:40), and Mary Magdalene (John 19:25-26), to which list Matthew 27:56 adds “the mother of the sons of Zebedee”, presumably the Salome mentioned in Mark 15:40, and other women who had followed Jesus from Galilee and ministered to him (mentioned in Matthew and Mark). Mary, cradling the dead body of her Son, while not recorded in the Gospel accounts, is a common motif in art, called a "pietà " or “pity”.
Is this statement true?
I cannot really work out where they are saying it states in the bible that Mary was actually at the crucifixtion
It’s true, but it’s not precise. They don’t mention John’s gospel - the only one who specifically refers to “Mary his mother.” There were a busload of Marys present at the crucifixion (apparently, every woman and her sister was named Mary at that time.)
You asked for a quote from the Bible. John 19:25 is it.
Wikipedia is not the Bible. Pieta illustrations are not the Bible either.
So Mary being present is supported in the Bible. Mary cradling her dead son is not.
[/quote]