Thank GOD! tears caveman-like into a porkchop
[quote]SpookMayest wrote:
novocaine wrote:
you dear sir, are an idiot. whether the swine flu vaccine is valid is another point.
So you are saying that anyone who doesn’t believe in general vaccinations is an idiot? That’s a bit vague. Insulting someone without evidence to back it up is a little shady and won’t gain you much respect or credibility.
I don’t know about all that swine flu business, but I for one haven’t been vaccinated since I was 3 and I’m healthy as a horse! Never had the flu or tetanus or diptheria (knock on wood).
I don’t really care either way if others get them or not, but I can strongly attest to the fact that I am no idiot. With or without vaccines.
[/quote]
You are benefiting from the population immunity conferred by everyone else being vaccinated. I truly hope the contemporary anti-vaccination uprising doesn’t ruin that for you.
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
SpookMayest wrote:
Hi, being a biology major, I am aware of the complexities of the immune system. That does not make me anymore likely to get vaccinated. Never said I don’t think we should stop giving them. It’s a personal choice on my part as it is for everyone else. I’m simply representing one side of the matter as a non-vaccinated person.
Have you ever lived in campus housing?
As far as I know most colleges require you to be vaccinated for hepatitis and 2 other things that I can’t remember, before you are allowed to live in campus housing.
It’s either that or you have to get them to even attend in university at all.
I know here in TN that’s how things work.[/quote]
Wrong, there’s no public college in the USA that requires vaccines. Not in TN and not for any housing. It’s probably not required at any private schools, but I’m too lazy to look it up. I will concede, they are probably required at military schools.
I go to a public trust college and we have to have our hep B vaccine.
I go to a public trust college and we have to have our hep B vaccine.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
SpookMayest wrote:
Hi, being a biology major, I am aware of the complexities of the immune system.
I’m way to young to be calling anyone a dumb kid, but since Rainjack isn’t here anymore…
Are you a Doctor? Do you specialize in Immunology? Virology?
No, you’re a student majoring in biology. You maybe aware of the tip of the iceberg, but the rest is far beyond your comprehension.[/quote]
I only pointed this out in response to a comment that was very condescending toward my awareness of the impact of vaccines on the immune system. So thanks for pointing out my ignorance, but I know that there is much I do not know. I was trying to show that I do not make uninformed decisions influenced by one or two articles I read on the internet.
Now I’m going to put on my white coat and pretend to know everything, if you’ll excuse me.
It’s interesting how aggressive the pro-vaccine posters are on this site. I wonder why you guys are so strongly opinionated on the subject when you haven’t done any research on the subject?
Do you guys know the government has a fund set up to pay off people or families of people who have been harmed by vaccines?
YAY the rational people have arrived! Welcome all!
[quote]Cherrymennos wrote:
I go to a public trust college and we have to have our hep B vaccine.[/quote]
I doubt it. You see, there are many institutions that pretend they have these requirements, but if pressed by someone who knows better, they will acquiesce. If you work in the cafeteria you need to get the hep vaccine. What school do you go to? I bet I can find a clause that could be used by anyone to opt out of the vaccine.
[quote]SpookMayest wrote:
YAY the rational people have arrived! Welcome all![/quote]
Not rational, we are “tinfoil hat wearing nuts” :D.
[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
orion wrote:
stokedporcupine8 wrote:
Not to say that lots of people are in developing counties are dying because of Novartis’ greed, but just in general it is very hard to think that it is right that someone should die for lack of medical care just because there wasn’t enough potential profit from that care for some giant company.
Nononononono.
A lot of people who can afford the vaccine will live because of Novartis genius.
Those people that die, die because you, and I mean YOU PERSONALLY, are to fucking greedy to buy up their stock and ship it to Africa.
How do you like it if utilitarian reasoning is applied to you?
Btw, there are people who hunger because you do not feed them, they are cold because you provide no clothes and shelter and you are wasting time on the intrewebz?
What is wrong with you?
This was merely meant to be a heuristic argument explaining my intuition, not some rigorous argument for my position. That is why I began the clause with “it is very hard to think that…”, which I meant literally. Normally when I talk I make conscious decisions about what words to use.
As I in general don’t think utilitarianism works well as a basis for ethics, I certainly wouldn’t try to justify this position using utilitarianism. But anyway, I don’t even see how this:
it is very hard to think that it is right that someone should die for lack of medical care just because there wasn’t enough potential profit from that care for some giant company
comes off as pragmatic anyway… Besides the fact that this statement merely expresses my intuition regarding the issue, I don’t see how anything about it is utilitarian or pragmatic. The underlying idea that this intuition is motivating is something like “The avialability and distribution of medical services ought not depend on their profitability”. Ultimately whether you would try and go on to justify this by utilitarianism or some other reasoning is another matter entirely.
Besides, what you’re doing in your counterargument isn’t “applying utilitarianism to me”, it’s just building a stawman argument. My position was never that companies like Novartis ought do everything they can to save every life they can–if that was the case then you turning the tables on me might work. What I explicitly said is that health care should not be a for-profit industry, and I explained that part of my intuition behind this was motivated by the fact that this leads to some people dying simply because their treatment wasn’t profitable. That health care should be a nonprofit industry certainly doesn’t imply that Novartis ought do everything it can to save every life they can. As you point out in your reply, this consequent is silly anyway, since if we apply it to all individuals it leads to absurd results. Thus we should hope that my claim doesn’t imply it, for then my claim would be silly too. But, that health care is a for-profit business does seem to imply–as the example of Novartis shows–that people will suffer or die simply because their treatment wasn’t profitable. Since intuitively this consequent is morally reprehensible, it seems that the antecedent is too.
Isn’t valid reasoning wonderful?
EDIT: I don’t mean to imply that the last paragraph here presents a good argument for my claims about profitability, since I still haven’t gotten past an intuition. What I meant about “valid reasoning” is realizing that my claims don’t imply other silly claims that are easily knocked down. [/quote]
Well then let us apply your reasoning to butcher and bakers.
They profit because you have to eat!
How reprehensible is that?
Should people be profiting from other peoples hunger?
[quote]orion wrote:
Well then let us apply your reasoning to butcher and bakers.
They profit because you have to eat!
How reprehensible is that?
Should people be profiting from other peoples hunger?
[/quote]
First of all I never gave any “reasoning”. It is annoying that you are taking my slightly off topic comments as some argument, when I have openly said they are just that–comments.
In any event, I never said no one should profit from providing necessary services. I said that doctors and nurses–medical professionals–should certainly be justly compensated for their work.
So, if you REALLY want to “apply my same reasoning”, then you would have to say that yes, butchers and bakers–food service professionals–should profit from their work. So if any other application of “my reasoning” can be made at all, it would be that the food service industry should be nonprofit as well. While this might be a legitimate extension of my reasoning, I would guess that the food service industry is sufficiency different from the medical service industry as to block the extension. In any event I never gave any real arguments at all, nor do I wish to get into this.
[quote]on edge wrote:
It’s interesting how aggressive the pro-vaccine posters are on this site. I wonder why you guys are so strongly opinionated on the subject when you haven’t done any research on the subject?
Do you guys know the government has a fund set up to pay off people or families of people who have been harmed by vaccines?[/quote]
that’s an interesting conclusion you’ve jumped to.
yes there are exemptions for college but you can’t simply walk in and say yea i never got those don’t bother me about it.
Maybe someone finds this interesting…
For those wary of vaccines there is anecdotal and observational evidence that proper blood 25-hydroxy vitamin D levels 50 ng/ml or higher are potentially effective against H1N1 (although against a lethal pandemic no one knows). To get to those levels most people require supplementing with an oil based 4000-6000 IU D3 daily.
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/thumb-your-nose-at-swine-flu.html
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search/label/vitamin%20D
There is also a large body of opinion/information re H1N1 and Vit D:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/h1n1-flu-and-vitamin-d.shtml
[quote]nik133 wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
nik133 wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
SpookMayest wrote:
Hi, being a biology major, I am aware of the complexities of the immune system.
I’m way to young to be calling anyone a dumb kid, but since Rainjack isn’t here anymore…
Are you a Doctor? Do you specialize in Immunology? Virology?
No, you’re a student majoring in biology. You maybe aware of the tip of the iceberg, but the rest is far beyond your comprehension.
Does it really matter whether or not she is a doctor? People call Moulden who is clearly quite accomplished a “quack”, like how much proof do you want? On one hand you have someone who is clearly very educated telling you one thing and on the other you have people no where near his level saying the same thing, exactly who do you want to hear this from?
A doctor who continues to give advice that is entirely contrary to the entirety of the evidence in a situation, makes decisions regarding patient’s health based on hypotheses that have never been proven and have in fact, been repeatedly DISPROVEN, the result of which is outbreaks of disease and death? Sounds like a quack to me.
Maybe you should take your tinfoil hat off sometime and check this thing called “reality” out. It really is quite nice sometimes.
Well you can choose to ignore the fact that 25 people died from the vaccine and 500 people got Guillain-BarrÃ??Ã?© syndrome (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/03/dayintech_0324). So 25 dead and 500 people affected by a disease they wouldn’t have otherwise contracted versus 1 dead, yeah I think I’ll take my chances without the vaccine.[/quote]
And you can ignore the fact that vaccines save lives…
You don’t even need background scientific knowledge to know that, anyone with the faintest grasp of history would have know that.
Maybe you should read up on the positive points, because you are ignoring them as if the vaccines have no function, as if they’re something you take just for a laugh, to see if you die from it or not (which you probably won’t). Think about it for a moment.
Think i saw africa mentioned, i cba to look back. The reason we don’t treat them is because diseases like malaria don’t have much of an affect on the developed world, we only spend money on drugs that we can use. If our governments really wanted to sort out those diseases they could, (albeit with a lot of money).
Just my two cents:
Yes, the HPV vaccine only protects against a handful, just as the annual influenza vaccine only protects against a handful of vaccines that the CDC thinks will be virulent for the upcoming flu season.
Millions of people may not have died in the last swine flu epidemic, but anyone heard of 1918? I bet vaccines would have cut those numbers down a bit.
Pertussis (whooping cough) and several other bugs have been making a resurgence since parents stopped immunizing there children. Speaking to the poster who said his bout of whooping cough was no big deal, antibiotics saved the day; lucky you, do you realize how much fun it might be next time if pertussis mutates a resistance to antibiotics?
MRSA, VRE, MRTB, all fun critters. Antibiotics rock. Can’t wait what the next 20 years will bring.
You can find an “expert” to back any point of view on the internet, and can increase the number by taking things out of context, do a search for Modern Eugenics Movement.
Yes, my eugenics comment was my way of proving that any argument will eventually escalate to someone calling someone a Nazi.
Studies. Oh aren’t they great. Who paid for the study, who performed the study, is the study able to be replicated? No one mentions these when they say “Well, I read this study…” I’m sure tobacco company funded studies are really rosy.
People need to be more open-minded, listen to every point of view and not just go with the first thing they hear, or what they perceive as popular. I did a lot of research on both sides of the topic of childhood immunizations before letting my daughter get them.
Speaking of studies, I saw something on Fox News a few weeks ago that said conservatives were more open to listening to opposing views.
You guys that are for vaccines, it’s great that you have this opinion, but please back it up with links so you can back up your info. Just watch the videos:
If Autism is suppose to affect one in every 165 and it isn’t caused by the mercury in vaccines, then explain to me how in an Amish (who almost everyone of them doesn’t get vaccinated) community of 22000 only 4 were infected, 3 of which were vaccinated the other one lives near a power plant, HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?
[quote]nik133 wrote:
You guys that are for vaccines, it’s great that you have this opinion, but please back it up with links so you can back up your info. Just watch the videos:
If Autism is suppose to affect one in every 165 and it isn’t caused by the mercury in vaccines, then explain to me how in an Amish (who almost everyone of them doesn’t get vaccinated) community of 22000 only 4 were infected, 3 of which were vaccinated the other one lives near a power plant, HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?[/quote]
Because links to videos on youtube are credible sources… sure…
[quote]Lordcliff wrote:
Pertussis (whooping cough) and several other bugs have been making a resurgence since parents stopped immunizing there children. Speaking to the poster who said his bout of whooping cough was no big deal, antibiotics saved the day; lucky you, do you realize how much fun it might be next time if pertussis mutates a resistance to antibiotics?
[/quote]
raises hand Don’t get me wrong, I am not anti-vaccine. I do though recognize that like any other medical procedure there are inherent risks involved, and hence one should weigh the risks and benefits of any vaccine. Of course there are some, if not many, clear cases where the benefits far outweigh the risks–say like Polio–while in other cases I can’t see the benefits outweighing the risk, however small they may really be–say like chickenpox.
Now of course there are probably lots of cases that are not clear one way or another. Pertussis is probably one of those cases. In my uneducated opinion, it seems that small children should be vaccinated against this, as I am told that it is much more serious for them then it is for an healthy adult. It doesn’t seem clear to me though that I should get a booster vaccine for Pertussis as an adult, when thanks to modern antibiotics the risks of Pertussis are very low. You may argue as you did that a mutated strain of Pertussis could be resistant to the antibiotics, but then wouldn’t the normal vaccine also be defenseless against the mutated strain? (That is a serious question.) If that is the case, it seems like I’m fucked either way if a new mutated strain of Pertussis comes along and I get it. Of course, if some new strain of Pertussis is identified and it is found that we have no effective antibiotics, then you might be right that I ought to go and get the vaccine.
So you see, I am quite rational about all this. I just don’t think one should run to get every little vaccine just because it’s available. Then again I am also the type of person who rarely takes medication at all–I never take things for headaches, take nothing for my often server seasonal allergies, nothing for colds, etc.
Ahh Youtube, great source of valid info. Here are my links
The last link, that guy is even a doctor!!! You can find the parts 2-5 on your own
Just to prove my point that you can find evidence to back anything, on the exact same website.
Does anyone get their information from books anymore, you know, those things made with paper, found in libraries.
I could post a video on YouTube saying anything I want, that won’t make it true.
Shit happens, not everything follows a nice cause and effect relationship. People refuse to accept the fact that you can’t blame everything and everybody else for you or your families problems. I have WPW snydrome, it congenital, and have never thought to find out if my mom was exposed to something that caused it. I’m overweight, it must be all those fast food restaurants, we should shut them down. More people die of heart related problems related to obesity caused by poor diets than there are autistic kids. For that matter, does anyone know how much death has been avoided through vaccinations verses autistic cases. Not to be a complete cold heart SOB, but do people really want vaccines pulled and potentially have a resurgence of deadly childhood diseases to “possibly” spare some kids from getting autism?
Don’t get me wrong, I myself haven’t made my mind up if there could be link between autism and vaccines. There was just this little thing I do called doing my own research, weighing risks verses benefits, and making an informed decision for myself.