Disturbing Picture

[quote]ConorM wrote:
Disc Hoss, I am atheist but even from a Christian point of view the thought that something God created is a sin is hard to take in.

GOd created homosexuality, was it to test the faith of those born that way? Think of how much you loved/love your girlfriend, now imagine someone telling you that was a sin. How could it possibly be? If God is all loving then sins are only that which cause harm to others not something which results in Love, which is spiritual purity itself. If he created gays and therefore created sin does that not blow the whole God is benevolent theory out of the water? [/quote]

If God hates homosexuality, why would he create it?? He didn’t, He wouldn’t create something He hates!! Christians(many!!) believe homosexuality is an addiction to immoral behavior NOT a biological factor–just like alcoholism, sex addicts, junkies, gamblers, adulterers etc. Many former homosexuals are heteros now, but you don’t here alot about it because the powerful Gays want homosexuality to be ACCEPTED not just tolerated–and judging by the response to this, they are succeeding!!! the Bible is clear on what constitutes sin,but you need to read it!!!

I M a sinner!!!

mike

[quote]Professor X wrote:
PGA200X wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You seem to have no problem doing this…even when it comes to claiming that homosexuality is definitely a choice when the truth is, we don’t know.

I do know it has been choice for some. I’ve stated it before. Choices can and have been made because of monitary influences. Thats FACT.

We are talking about sexual orientation, not performing sex acts for pay. There is a huge difference just like heterosexual sex shouldn’t be compared to prostitution.
[/quote]

Orientations cannot be a choice? Better tell all the males and females upstate for life, that it wasn’t their “choice” they are settling for the same sex. Ya know…because they will NEVER be with another male or female again.

I truly hope you succeed with others more so than you do with me. If how you treat me qualifies as treating me with respect “most of the time” you need to reassess your Christianity.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Side note: at least half of the people I know who got married before the age of 25 are now divorced or heading in that direction. I think that statistic may not be dead on (because most rarely are) but I doubt it is far off.[/quote]

You hang around with the wrong crowd. (j/k).

I am 38 years old. Almost all my friends and family are married. Zero divorces in that group. While I do know people that are divorced, it is certainly much less than 50%. I do know a guy who is divorced 4 or 5 times. His numbers would screw up the statistics.

Hijack over.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:
ZEB, would you be for a law that would prevent homosexuals from being teachers or working in child-care facilities? Or how about living with in a certain distance of these places? Would you want one to be your child’s doctor? Counselor?

Where’s the love?

As I have stated before on this very forum I have hired Gay people to work in my company. I also have Gay tennants and I have never discriminated against anyone for their beliefs.

This is a very big world and I think there is plenty of room for everyone of every persuasion, belif, faith etc. We are simply having a discussion and I am voicing my opinion. Sometimes it’s about theology. Other times about conduct and various laws, marriage etc.

This is a great country, if you want to make it smaller and less meaningful all you have to do is support the idiot who wrote the sign that that poor kid is holding!

My question to you would be: where’s the open mind?

[/quote]

ZEB, my question was in response to your assertion that children should not be raised by homosexual couples. I wondered how far that went that went, that’s all. I was not attacking, but seriously asking the question.

The “Where’s the love?” was not directed towards you specifically, but to people in general.

Since you did not answer my question, here’s another. How would you feel if you found that a gay man or lesbian was teaching in one of your daughter’s classes?

I’m not sure where you’re going with the open mind comment, but I would say it’s inside my skull!

I’m not sure a multiple divorce person really counts as a statistical skewing or not.

I’m sure the numbers are out there for the quantity of first marriages that have failed if we want to work hard enough to dig them out.

The fact of the matter is that traditional marriages are indeed not all that stable. That is pretty damned hard to argue.

Enough with the bullshit already.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Side note: at least half of the people I know who got married before the age of 25 are now divorced or heading in that direction. I think that statistic may not be dead on (because most rarely are) but I doubt it is far off.

You hang around with the wrong crowd. (j/k).

I am 38 years old. Almost all my friends and family are married. Zero divorces in that group. While I do know people that are divorced, it is certainly much less than 50%. I do know a guy who is divorced 4 or 5 times. His numbers would screw up the statistics.

Hijack over.[/quote]

I think the level of divorce is higher in those who are going after higher degrees and get married during that time period. That is what I have heard at least. I am sure much of that simply has to do with the stress of going to school at that age.

[quote]PGA200X wrote:

Orientations cannot be a choice? Better tell all the males and females upstate for life, that it wasn’t their “choice” they are settling for the same sex. Ya know…because they will NEVER be with another male or female again.[/quote]

No, they aren’t choice. You are trying to oversimplify biology and psychology by acting as if someone would wake up one day and decide they will be gay from now on. We barely understand the psychology behind basic fetishes in heterosexuals yet you want to act as if you have pegged it down to “choice”? Why not write a thesis and pick up your Phd for this wealth of knowledge that you apparently have that no one else on the planet has stumbled on as of yet? Not all inmates turn to this type of behavior. It would imply that those who do possibly were bisexual to begin with…not that they were straight and suddenly chose to get their salad tossed one day while lifting weights in the yard.

I think there still needs something to be done with things like that. Comments made and also by looking at the pics here, are totally unacceptable. Saying thank God for 9/11?? I mean its totally ludicrous. Its insanity, I would deal with these people and quickly to. As massif said, just use ur bare hands. God is not responsible for problems or anything, man created evil not God.

In terms of choice or being born gay, I believe you are not born to either one. I believe that growing up you make a decision based on your own values and based upon how you grew up. I am not saying the bible is always right, but you are not born saying, I love women or men. I believe it is a choice, just like almost everything in life. Are you born liking coffee? No. thats the way I see it. I respect whatever people are, even though I do not agree with it. Just like I would vote Bush over Kerry, others would have chosen Kerry, I mean it is your choice and I aint gona argue it.

Check out the statistics on the CDC website regarding STD’s. The numbers are DRAMATICALLY on the rise–why???because of immoral behavior(of which i have participated FAR too much in my past and just got “lucky” to not contract an STD!!) You don’t get HIV, Herpes,Gonhorrea, etc. just by waking up and living your life!!!(Gee, Iguess God doesn’t HATE sexually immoral behavior does he?? All these wonderful diseases can ONLY ((except for the rar poor soul who gets it from a tainted blood transfusion))be inflicted by BEHAVIOR!!!

Our society worships @ the altar of the immoral, but what Britney,Christina, etc. DON"T show us in their lusty lives is the pain that immoral sexual (homo AND hetero!!) behavior causes. If you want a dose of reality, do a search for STD’s on the CDC website. Secularism is a GREAT thing for human kind, isn’t it??!!!

I M a sinner

Here is a study I have posted before:

Lesbian couples raise well-adjusted teenagers

17:25 15 November 2004

NewScientist.com news service
Maggie McKee

Teenagers raised by lesbian mothers show no developmental differences compared to those brought up by heterosexual parents, according to the first large national study in the US.

Previous research has focused mainly on younger children and found no significant disparities in child welfare between same-sex and heterosexual families.

But few studies have been done on adolescents, who some researchers think may be more prone to - or conscious of - discrimination against their families. Others have speculated whether a teens’ own sexuality is affected by that of their parents.

“There’s been this debate about whether being raised by single-sex couples is good or bad for children,” says Stephen Russell, a sociologist at the University of Arizona in Tucson, US. “We would call into question suggestions that growing up with single-sex parents is somehow problematic.”

12,000 interviews
Russell and colleagues Charlotte Patterson and Jennifer Wainright at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, US, came to this conclusion after sifting through interviews from 1995 with about 12,000 US teenagers and their families. The teens were part of the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, the largest and most comprehensive study of the age group in the US.

“This is the best available evidence to date about how adolescent children fare in families with single-sex parents,” Russell told New Scientist.

The researchers found 44 teens being raised by two women in a “marriage-like” relationship. Only six teens reported living with two gay men, so male single-sex families were excluded from the study.

Each teen studied was matched with a counterpart from a heterosexual family, who shared the same sex, age, ethnicity, adoption status and family income, among other factors.

Same-sex attractions
The researchers found no differences between the two groups in terms of depression, anxiety, self-esteem and school grades. Exactly the same proportion of both groups also reported having had sex (34%).

But while a previous study suggested children of gay parents were more likely to consider homosexual relationships, this study was unable to provide such information because so few teens reported same-sex attractions and romances.

The single most important predictor of the teens’ well being, the study showed, was their relationship with parents - regardless of family type. ?What’s really important is the quality of the relationship," Russell told New Scientist.

As a result, the authors write that their findings “provide no justification for limitations on child custody or visitation by lesbian mothers” and “do not support the idea that lesbian and gay adults are less likely than others to provide good adoptive or foster homes”.

Russell says future studies could see how the same group of teens fared in young adulthood.

Journal reference: Child Development (vol 75, p 1886)

Interesting:

Mothers’ genetic skew linked to gay sons
10:26 09 November 2004
Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition

Alison Motluk, Toronto

American Society of Human Genetics
Ian Craig, Institute of Psychiatry
There has been much debate over ?gay genes?. Now an intriguing study raises another possibility: in some cases, variations in the genetic program we inherit from our parents, rather than in the genes themselves, might determine sexual preference.

Our genome is ?programmed? by the addition of chemical markers called methyl groups to the DNA, which shut down genes. One of the most dramatic examples of methylation is the shutdown of one of the two X chromosomes (one from each parent) in every woman?s cells, a process called X-inactivation (New Scientist print edition, 10 May 2003).

Normally, this process is random; either of the X chromosomes can be inactivated.

But when Sven Bocklandt of the University of California, Los Angeles, compared blood and saliva samples from 97 mothers of gay men with samples from 103 mothers without gay children he found this process was extremely skewed in the mothers with gay sons, with one X chromosome being far more likely to be inactivated than the other.

“I like males”
Only 4% of the mothers without gay sons showed this skewing, compared with 14% of mothers with at least one gay son. Among mothers with two or more gay sons, the figure was 23%.

Such skewing is generally associated with genetic disorders, but the mothers all appear to be healthy. Their daughters also seemed unaffected, with only 1 out of 24 showing skewing.

Bocklandt suspects that whatever is causing the skewed methylation of the X chromosome also affects the methylation of certain genes on the chromosomes the women pass on to their sons. Mothers might not be resetting their own ?I like males? program, he told a meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics in Toronto last week.

?I?m not absolutely persuaded, but it?s an interesting hypothesis,? says Ian Craig of the Institute of Psychiatry in London. ?Until you?ve got some molecular way to test it, it?s just a nice idea.?

Alright I really am curious thats why I keep asking this question.

For all you straight guys who think its a choice. Could you choose to have sex with a man? No one seems to want to say they can/can’t and I can see why.

If you say you can’t then the choice theory has trouble, if you say you could then well thats very a interesting fact about this topic.

My answer to the question is no, I could not chose to have sex with a man.

I dont mean this to anotgonize anyone I respect all your beliefs and your right to have them (unless you believe its ok to kill gays or anyone else you dont agree with)

It is a personal question but I feel it relates to the matter very well.

Have a good day and good training!

[quote]mike08042 wrote:
In terms of choice or being born gay, I believe you are not born to either one. I believe that growing up you make a decision based on your own values and based upon how you grew up.
[/quote]

I can remember having sexual feelings toward females at age 4. Did I really decide to be straight at age 4? I didn’t even know what it meant, or exactly what sex was.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
PGA200X wrote:

Orientations cannot be a choice? Better tell all the males and females upstate for life, that it wasn’t their “choice” they are settling for the same sex. Ya know…because they will NEVER be with another male or female again.

No, they aren’t choice. You are trying to oversimplify biology and psychology by acting as if someone would wake up one day and decide they will be gay from now on. We barely understand the psychology behind basic fetishes in heterosexuals yet you want to act as if you have pegged it down to “choice”? Why not write a thesis and pick up your Phd for this wealth of knowledge that you apparently have that no one else on the planet has stumbled on as of yet? Not all inmates turn to this type of behavior. It would imply that those who do possibly were bisexual to begin with…not that they were straight and suddenly chose to get their salad tossed one day while lifting weights in the yard.[/quote]

Awww look at you trying to offend me. I knew my Spidey sense was tingling for a reason…we were in for a Professor X spin.

I have heard people FLAT OUT say they have sex with the same sex in jail because thats their only option. So yes some people choose to be with the same sex.

The changes that an environment can make on a persons mind has been documented. Now I dont have a Ph.D. but I’m willing to bet that someones sexual preferance can be altered based on environment.

Spin away…

Your point about your grandparents being married for 60+ years and being counted as “1 successful mariage” is well-taken. However, I do not totally agree with your conclusion that serial marriages skew the average to the point that the average is meaningless. Four failed marriages should count as four failed marriages. This shows that there is a percentage of people who go in and out of marriages fairly quickly and with little thought about commitment.

I recall reading a statistic regarding the “seven year itch” stating that once a couple gets past the seven-year mark, the chances of the marriage being successful rises considerable. The odds also improve for couples with children. I definitely agree that the statistic should be broken down in terms of length of marriage and whether the couple has children.

[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Professor X wrote:
PGA200X wrote:

Orientations cannot be a choice? Better tell all the males and females upstate for life, that it wasn’t their “choice” they are settling for the same sex. Ya know…because they will NEVER be with another male or female again.

No, they aren’t choice. You are trying to oversimplify biology and psychology by acting as if someone would wake up one day and decide they will be gay from now on. We barely understand the psychology behind basic fetishes in heterosexuals yet you want to act as if you have pegged it down to “choice”? Why not write a thesis and pick up your Phd for this wealth of knowledge that you apparently have that no one else on the planet has stumbled on as of yet? Not all inmates turn to this type of behavior. It would imply that those who do possibly were bisexual to begin with…not that they were straight and suddenly chose to get their salad tossed one day while lifting weights in the yard.

Awww look at you trying to offend me. I knew my Spidey sense was tingling for a reason…we were in for a Professor X spin.

I have heard people FLAT OUT say they have sex with the same sex in jail because thats their only option. So yes some people choose to be with the same sex.

The changes that an environment can make on a persons mind has been documented. Now I dont have a Ph.D. but I’m willing to bet that someones sexual preferance can be altered based on environment.

Spin away…[/quote]

What people have said to you is not really evidence but fuck it lets roll with it. It is something. I would say it also means there is something about them that allows them to make that choice, they are probably bi-sexual, dont know but it is not a choice for all of us if it is at all.

Where I grew up a lot of kids ended up in the joint and I heard from a lot no matter how long they where in for dudes did not start looking good to them.

And there is the question that know one seems to want to answer…could you choose? Again I dont mean it as an insult, just an honest question because I feel so strongly that I could not do so no matter what the circumstances.

[quote]PGA200X wrote:
Awww look at you trying to offend me. I knew my Spidey sense was tingling for a reason…we were in for a Professor X spin.

I have heard people FLAT OUT say they have sex with the same sex in jail because thats their only option. So yes some people choose to be with the same sex.

The changes that an environment can make on a persons mind has been documented. Now I dont have a Ph.D. but I’m willing to bet that someones sexual preferance can be altered based on environment.

Spin away…[/quote]

I wasn’t trying to offend you. Trust me, if that was the goal, it would have been much more blatant. There are cases in the animal kindgdom where reptiles change sex based on the environment. That doesn’t mean that every case of this in prisons is due to the same cause. The point is, this is not as simple as “choice”. It goes deeper than that into the human subconscious. It would have to do that just to initiate the biological response leading to orgasm. You want to believe that people just sit around and decide to be gay. I am taking the stance that it is not that simple and whether this be a deeper mental issue or the culmination of innate genetic markers, it is not as simple as someone making a choice who they are attracted to.

My friend in high school had a gay dog. He would only hump other male dogs. According to you, he CHOSE to be this way. Perhaps there was something in the Alpo.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I wasn’t trying to offend you. Trust me, if that was the goal, it would have been much more blatant. There are cases in the animal kindgdom where reptiles change sex based on the environment. That doesn’t mean that every case of this in prisons is due to the same cause. The point is, this is not as simple as “choice”. It goes deeper than that into the human subconscious. It would have to do that just to initiate the biological response leading to orgasm. You want to believe that people just sit around and decide to be gay. I am taking the stance that it is not that simple and whether this be a deeper mental issue or the culmination of innate genetic markers, it is not as simple as someone making a choice who they are attracted to.

My friend in high school had a gay dog. He would only hump other male dogs. According to you, he CHOSE to be this way. Perhaps there was something in the Alpo.
[/quote]

“My friend in high school had a gay dog. He would only hump other male dogs. According to you, he CHOSE to be this way. Perhaps there was something in the Alpo.”

Ok? Point being? When did I say every instance was choice? O wait, I didnt. Go back a few pages and see what I wrote. I believe some are gay by choice because of environment and some are gay because of biological factors.

In reality there is more pointing to CHOICE rather than biological factors. There is PROOF of people doing it by choice, as I’ve heard it DIRECTLY from people’s mouths. Yet there are only ASSumptions that it can be biological. NOTHING has been identified.

Does a sexual predator who was raped and abused for much of its youth have a genetic predisposition to do the same to others? I would say environment played the role there NOT biology. Its not a choice but the mind was altered in a way to make it seem right. Thats not a genetical influence or a choice but an alteration of chemicals in the brain.

[quote]doogie wrote:
Zeb,

  1. Gay does not equal pedophile. [/quote]
    true

It would devalue hetero sexual marriage

Guilty

I don’t but, I guess unless you are telling me about some hot babe. I don’t want to hear about your sex life.I also understand a moral person not wanting to hear about anyone?s sex life. Or if they want to change the meaning of a word (such as marriage) that has been around more than a millennia.