not too mention I bet God hates bigots and racists alot more than gays
God hates sin of every type. That is taught/evident from Scripture. CS is correct as the Bible condemns all sin, which of course includes homosexuality. Now the key is this. Hatred for a wrong is not to be carried to the end of hatred for the person. You’ve all probably heard the axiom “hate the sin, love the sinner.” That is the whole thing. Now loving is not the same as condoning either. That a distinction that should be made.
I am a Christian. Homosexuality is a choice and a sin. I have two friends who are gay. I tell them the truth and I tell them in a kind concerned manner. Because I care about them. BUT I do not condone what they do, just as I have friends who are dishonest in business dealings. I tell them, in the love and truth of Christ, that there will be consequences of all that we do both in this life and that to come. I don’t brow beat them. I offer it to them. This should not be confused with tolerance in the PC world. They will answer to Christ, not me. My job is to teach the truth in love. End job. Jesus hung out with liars, losers, prostitutes, and other undesirables. BUT he loved them all too much to leave them as they were…which is broken. He loves people, and THAT is precisely why He came. To set people free from the spiritual/psychological bondage of a sin nature.
We all have that as a consequence of the fall of man. It’s not the individual sins so much as it is the sin nature. Sins are simply the fruit of the fallen spiritual nature. Go to the source for repair. That is why religions of works, deeds, and higher knowledge are missing the core issue. It’s not what you are doing that’s the problem, it’s what is at your core as a human being. Christ, by way of divine grace, heals the true core issue. A man can tamper with hardware (the physical) or softwar (the mind) but his issue is beyond his reach. It is with the nature/essence. This would equate as the programmer in the above example.
The will/nature/essence seeks its own end to some degree. It then uses the faculties of mind and body to carry out it’s desires. There in is the problem, and only God can fix it.
I’m sorry to make a “sermon” of this but I get very tired of every armchair expert in the world talking about broad religious terms and making sweeping statements about that which they are truly ignorant of.
We all dislike it when Katie Couric condems “fats” or “carbs” because she makes no intelligent/informed distinctions. But we don’t want to apply that same critical analysis to religion and especially Christianity.
I’ll make an offer and I hope it’s not heckled. I am a Christian. If you have a question, any question, then ask me.
There you go. Free game. Flame the Bible thumper.
I wont give you an opinion, I’ll give you correlating (and complete) scripture for you to investigate.
If I’d like to say one thing, it’s this:
Don’t miss Christ just because of the “Christians”. He never said there was any other way other than Himself and the Gospel. Pure, unadulterated and genuine.
Christ saves and, sadly, fallen human beings who follow him and more sadly those who just claim it but have NO REAL relationship, will disappoint you. Now that you know it, don’t let that stop you. Educate yourself… you’ll gain a lot more than some pipes and abs.
Much more.
Best,
DH
I hate to think of the “fags” and “fag supporters” that are out there protecting our country are inadvertently protecting these kinds of people as well.
The depth of some people’s hatred of things that don’t hurt them is appalling. Especially the level they bring it to. I can understand not wanting to have gays in your house. But stretching that to neighborhood, then city, state and country, world? Somehow their very existence prevents them from living in accordance to their religion?Ugh.
Ugh went to that site and saw some disgusting pics of little kids wearing godhatesfags.com t-shirts. Too spread that filth too impressionable youngsters thus ruining any chance they have of tolerant views is evil beyond belief in my opinion.
Does anyone fancy going to one of those rallies holding up a sign saying “God hates intolerant bigots”.
Disc Hoss, I am atheist but even from a Christian point of view the thought that something God created is a sin is hard to take in.
GOd created homosexuality, was it to test the faith of those born that way? Think of how much you loved/love your girlfriend, now imagine someone telling you that was a sin. How could it possibly be? If God is all loving then sins are only that which cause harm to others not something which results in Love, which is spiritual purity itself. If he created gays and therefore created sin does that not blow the whole God is benevolent theory out of the water?
You can hate the game and not the player.
Nothing wrong believing Homosexuality is a sin…doen’t mean you have to hate those that are gay.
Love one another…that was the important message he wanted us all to know wasn’t it
Your point is based on the premise of genetic homosexuality. I do not ascribe to this, as it is unproven and has been for a while now. It’s a choice.
And just for mind candy, what if I’m “born” a pedophile or any other abberation of human behavior? You bring home my point that human beings are born into sin, with a desire to please self to the detriment of both self and others. But that is mind candy.
The benevolence vs omnipotence argument has been beaten to a blunt edge. God is benevolent to take human form and sacrifice Himself for a fallen race that cannot save (or even see) it’s condition. Benevolence ad infinitum. Justice then demands a reckoning for all choices made by a moral/rational being. His power to both create, impose standards that bring consequences, and then righteously determine eternity express both His mercy and His justice.
[quote]ConorM wrote:
Disc Hoss, I am atheist but even from a Christian point of view the thought that something God created is a sin is hard to take in.
GOd created homosexuality, was it to test the faith of those born that way? Think of how much you loved/love your girlfriend, now imagine someone telling you that was a sin. How could it possibly be? If God is all loving then sins are only that which cause harm to others not something which results in Love, which is spiritual purity itself. If he created gays and therefore created sin does that not blow the whole God is benevolent theory out of the water? [/quote]
Precisely.
And the second great commandment was love your neighbor as yourself.
The first was to love the LORD your God with all your being.
Luke 10:27
And He answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
That is the totality of the message.
DH
[quote]hedo wrote:
You can hate the game and not the player.
Nothing wrong believing Homosexuality is a sin…doen’t mean you have to hate those that are gay.
Love one another…that was the important message he wanted us all to know wasn’t it[/quote]
Ephesians 4:15
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, Christ
Love without truth has no meaning in a rational reality.
Truth without love has no meaning in a moral reality encompassing beings with personhood.
Can’t have one without the other.
DH
ConorM - In this case, this isn’t true. Christians believe homosexuality is a free choice - and free choice is not god-given, but taken by man (garden of eden). Therefore, for them this is a human act, not God’s. Just like murder or theft. Therefor it is a sin. Being a woman, or black, on the other hand, is right along your lines. Therefore in order to get Christians (at least non-literal bible followers) to accept homosexuals would be to prove that homeosexuality is not a choice. Until then, it is not a God-given trait.
Just trying to clear that up.
Check out the good “Reverend” Phelp’s sister site at: http://www.godhatesamerica.com/
Yeah, it’s the same asshole. Imaging you lost a loved one in Iraq, and these pieces of shit show up to at the funeral to cheer the death of another member of the “fag army”.
Someday I hope I wake up and hear on the news that someone stuffed a .45 in this ugly cocksucker’s mouth and capped one off. Even better, I’d like to be picked for jury duty for that trial, assuming there were even charges filed.
[quote]Atomic Dog wrote:
BFG wrote:
(2) what are you doing in San Dog?
I spend as much time there as possible because I like it.
[/quote]
How about a San Diego T-Nation get togeather like they did in DC? You gotta admit, SoCal is the shit…
Maybe Christians should accept some things on faith, before proof is offered…
Oh I don’t know, maybe little things like
-
The world is not flat.
-
Earth is not the center of the universe.
-
We aren’t sure that homosexuality is a choice.
Nope, the church is never wrong. Never ever. How many peoples lives have been ruined in the past over things like this, or today, when we simply don’t know yet.
Maybe the church should admit to simply not knowing at times… because when it is wrong, and it has been over doozies, that has created a lot of strife, and I have to tell you, I don’t think the purpose of religion was to cause strife.
Anyhow, those idiots in the pictures are no more misguided then any other person trying to educate an unwilling audience with their religious beliefs. There are a lot of religions, it stands to reason that most of them are wrong.
Most of you believe yours is the right interpretation. Most of you are wrong. How do you KNOW the guy with the sign isn’t getting it right?
I certainly don’t believe it, and I don’t believe homosexuality is a choice either, but I don’t know how someone of faith KNOWS their faith is correct and that of another is wrong.
It’s a conundrum.
I’m simply blown away…
How does ANYONE read the word’s of the Master…and come away with so much hate?
What about “Let he who is without Sin cast the first stone”? (A BIG lesson there about judging others…)
I’m also afraid that I DO NOT ascribe to the phrase “Hate the sin…not the sinner…” While some may use it with sincere intent…too often it’s a phrase simply used to justify hate…
Unbelievable, T…
Mufasa
Sure, the guy is a prick, but isn’t the whole point of your country about freedom of speech and rule of law?
Yes? No?
Exceptions whenever whoever has the power to take matters into their own hands decides to?
This is one of those things that tests your beliefs…
[quote]vroom wrote:
Sure, the guy is a prick, but isn’t the whole point of your country about freedom of speech and rule of law?
Yes? No?
Exceptions whenever whoever has the power to take matters into their own hands decides to?
This is one of those things that tests your beliefs…[/quote]
My acceptance of his right to say whatever he wants and my desire to hear that he has been murdered for saying it are not mutually exclusive.
You don’t see any type of disconnect there?
You want someone else to commit murder, violating the most basic understanding of right and wrong, whether you are religious or not, due to the fact he exercises his rights and somehow this is appropriate?
So, what you are saying is, you aren’t angered enough by his use of free speech to kill him, thereby risking your own freedom, but you hope someone else, some loser, will do this.
You didn’t say you wouldn’t shed a tear, you said you desire it. You also said you’d like to be on the jury… so you could obviously find the person not guilty.
Funny how right and wrong can get shifted around when you like or don’t like something…
Disgusting. As sick as it sounds Phelps may be doing more to eliminate prejudice against gays than anyone else.
One look at this guy and I want to march in a gay pride parade.
Disc Hoss, this isn’t meant to be an attack on your character - just wanted to say that up front, you seem like a great guy from your posts. This is a subject I feel very strongly about, however, and the principle reason I left the Catholic Church (I’m not gay myself, but the complete lack of reasoning on it opened my eyes to other holes I found too big to ignore).
I do have to ask one thing before looking at the rest of your points - where in the Divinely inspired Scripture does God condemn homosexuality? I don’t mean in the many-times removed bastardizations that are now called the Bible, but in the original scripture? The Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic words for gay/homosexuality DO NOT appear. The situation in Sodom/Gem. are often cited, but that could easily be attributed to the fact that the sexual acts were forced rather than consentual. Another passage often cited to me says that “Man shall not lie with another man as he does with a woman” or whatever the translator says, but the actual Hebrew says “Thou shall not couch with a priest as thou would with a woman.” Not quite the same message.
It is very confusing to me where any of the Christian churches got this idea - where does it come from in your denomination? Best I can figure is it started in the Catholic church as an attack on Roman culture in a political move.
[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Your point is based on the premise of genetic homosexuality. I do not ascribe to this, as it is unproven and has been for a while now. It’s a choice. [/quote]
I’ll refer you to Vroom’s post below on this point. Also, check out the book “Genome” by Matt Ridley (just one example of such a work). Much of the genetic link to homosexuality HAS been established, and it happens often among the other animals (a notable example just a couple years ago was a male pair of penguins raising a chick in the zoo). Did they also fall in original sin, or do animals operate outside the bounds of morality and choice? If they operate outside of choice and moral decision making, then God did indeed create homosexuality.
[quote]
And just for mind candy, what if I’m “born” a pedophile or any other abberation of human behavior? You bring home my point that human beings are born into sin, with a desire to please self to the detriment of both self and others. But that is mind candy. [/quote]
No, it isn’t mind candy, it’s a false analogy. They differ critically in that pedophilia harms a child, whereas homosexuality between two consenting adults hurts no one.
[quote]
The benevolence vs omnipotence argument has been beaten to a blunt edge. God is benevolent to take human form and sacrifice Himself for a fallen race that cannot save (or even see) it’s condition. Benevolence ad infinitum. Justice then demands a reckoning for all choices made by a moral/rational being. His power to both create, impose standards that bring consequences, and then righteously determine eternity express both His mercy and His justice. [/quote]
Yeah, you may be right… most philosophers gave up this argument a while ago. Both sides can argue equally, as there’s no tangible proof and several hundred years of discussion has yielded nothing. Personally, I’m all for a God that is benevolent. The alternative sucks.
-Dan
These people live a life dominated by hate. Hate motivates their lives. How pathetic they are.