Dissecting ID

DNA: Evidence for intelligent design.

DNA: marvelous messages or mostly mess?
by Jonathan Sarfati

This year is the 50th anniversary of the discovery of the double helix structure of DNA. Its discoverers, James Watson, Francis Crick and Maurice Wilkins, won the Nobel Prize for Physiology and Medicine in 1962 for their discovery.


The amazing design and complexity of living things provides strong evidence for a Creator. We know from the Bible that God rested from (i.e. finished) His creative work after Day 6 (Genesis 2:2?3) and now sustains His creation (Col. 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:3). So how do complex living creatures arise today?

God?s information technology
One aspect of this sustenance is that God has programmed the ?recipe? for all these structures on the famous double-helix molecule DNA.1 This recipe has an enormous information content, which is transmitted one generation to the next, so that living things reproduce ?after their kinds? (Genesis 1, 10 times). Leading atheistic evolutionist Richard Dawkins admits:

?[T]here is enough information capacity in a single human cell to store the Encyclopaedia Britannica, all 30 volumes of it, three or four times over.?2

Just as the Britannica had intelligent writers to produce its information, so it is reasonable and even scientific to believe that the information in the living world likewise had an original compositor/sender.3 There is no known non-intelligent cause that has ever been observed to generate even a small portion of the literally encyclopedic information required for life.

The genetic code (see ?The programs of life? below) is not an outcome of raw chemistry, but of elaborate decoding machinery in the ribosome. Remarkably, this decoding machinery is itself encoded in the DNA, and the noted philosopher of science Sir Karl Popper pointed out:

?Thus the code can not be translated except by using certain products of its translation. This constitutes a baffling circle; a really vicious circle, it seems, for any attempt to form a model or theory of the genesis of the genetic code.?5,6

So, such a system must be fully in place before it could work at all, a property called irreducible complexity. This means that it is impossible to be built by natural selection working on small changes.

The unity of life
Many evolutionists claim that the DNA code is universal, and that this is proof of a common ancestor. But this is false?there are exceptions, some known since the 1970s. An example is Paramecium, where a few of the 64 (43 or 4x4x4) possible codons code for different amino acids. More examples are being found constantly.1 Also, some organisms code for one or two extra amino acids beyond the main 20 types.2 But if one organism evolved into another with a different code, all the messages already encoded would be scrambled, just as written messages would be jumbled if typewriter keys were switched. This is a huge problem for the evolution of one code into another.

Also, in our cells we have ?power plants? called mitochondria, with their own genes. It turns out that they have a slightly different genetic code, too.

Certainly most of the code is universal, but this is best explained by common design?one Creator. Of all the millions of genetic codes possible, ours, or something almost like it, is optimal for protecting against errors.3 But the created exceptions thwart attempts to explain the organisms by common-ancestry evolution.

References and notes
The genetic codes, National Institutes of Health, 29 August 2002. Return to text.
Certain Archaea and eubacteria code for 21st or 22nd amino acids, selenocysteine and pyrrolysine?see Atkins, J.F. and Gesteland, R., The 22nd amino acid, Science 296(5572):1409?10, 24 May 2002; commentary on technical papers on pp. 1459?62 and 1462?66. Return to text.
Knight, J., Top translator, New Scientist 158(2130):15, 18 April 1998. Natural selection cannot explain this code optimality, since there is no way to replace the first functional code with a ?better? one without destroying functionality. Return to text.

DNA is by far the most compact information storage system in the universe. Even the simplest known living organism has 482 protein-coding genes. This is a total of 580,000 ?letters,?7?humans have three billion in every nucleus. (See ?The programs of life,? for an explanation of the DNA ?letters.?)

The amount of information that could be stored in a pinhead?s volume of DNA is equivalent to a pile of paperback books 500 times as high as the distance from Earth to the moon, each with a different, yet specific content.8 Putting it another way, while we think that our new 40 gigabyte hard drives are advanced technology, a pinhead of DNA could hold 100 million times more information.

The ?letters? of DNA have another vital property due to their structure, which allows information to be transmitted: A pairs only with T, and C only with G, due to the chemical structures of the bases?the pair is like a rung or step on a spiral staircase. This means that the two strands of the double helix can be separated, and new strands can be formed that copy the information exactly. The new strand carries the same information as the old one, but instead of being like a photocopy, it is in a sense like a photographic negative. The copying is far more precise than pure chemistry could manage?only about 1 mistake in 10 billion copyings, because there is editing (proof-reading and error-checking) machinery, again encoded in the DNA. But how would the information for editing machinery be transmitted accurately before the machinery was in place? Lest it be argued that the accuracy could be achieved stepwise through selection, note that a high degree of accuracy is needed to prevent ?error catastrophe??the accumulation of ?noise? in the form of junk proteins. Again there is a vicious circle (more irreducible complexity).

Also, even the choice of the letters A, T, G and C now seems to be based on minimizing error. Evolutionists usually suppose that these letters happened to be the ones in the alleged primordial soup, but research shows that C (cytosine) is extremely unlikely to have been present in any such ?soup.?9 Rather, D?nall Mac D?naill of Trinity College Dublin suggests that the letter choice is like the advanced error-checking systems that are incorporated into ISBNs on books, credit card numbers, bank accounts and airline tickets. Any alternatives would suffer error catastrophe.10

Introns
DNA is not read directly, but first the cell makes a negative copy in a very similar molecule called RNA,11 a process called transcription. But in all organisms other than most bacteria, there is more to transcription. This RNA, reflecting the DNA, contains regions called exons that code for proteins, and non-coding regions called introns. So the introns are removed and the exons are ?spliced? together to form the mRNA (messenger RNA) that is finally decoded to form the protein. This also requires elaborate machinery called a spliceosome. This is assembled on the intron, chops it out at the right place and joins the exons together. This must be in the right direction and place, because, as shown above, it makes a huge difference if the exon is joined even one letter off. Thus, partly formed splicing machinery would be harmful, so natural selection would work against it. Richard Roberts and Phillip Sharp won the 1993 Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine for discovering introns in 1977. It turns out that 97?98% of the genome may be introns and other non-coding sequences, but this raises the question of why introns exist at all.

Junk DNA?
Dawkins and others have claimed that this non-coding DNA is ?junk,? or ?selfish? DNA. Supposedly, no intelligent designer would use such an inefficient system, therefore it must have evolved, they argue. This parallels the 19th century claim that about a hundred ?vestigial organs? exist in the human body,12 i.e. allegedly useless remnants of our evolutionary history.13 But more enlightened evolutionists such as Scadding pointed out that the argument is logically invalid, because it is impossible in principle to prove that an organ has no function; rather, it could have a function we don?t know about. Scadding also reminds us that ?as our knowledge has increased the list of vestigial structures has decreased.?14,15,16

While Dawkins has often claimed that belief in a creator is a ?cop-out,? it?s claims of vestigial or junk status that are actually ?cop-outs.? Such claims hindered research into the vital function of allegedly vestigial organs, and they do the same with non-coding DNA.

Actually, even if evolution were true, the notion that the introns are useless is absurd. Why would more complex organisms evolve such elaborate machinery to splice them? Rather, natural selection would favour organisms that did not have to waste resources processing a genome filled with 98% junk. And there have been many uses discovered for so-called junk DNA, such as the overall genome structure and regulation of genes. Some creationists believe that this DNA has a role in rapid post-Flood diversification of the ?kinds? on board the Ark.17

Some non-coding RNAs called microRNAs (miRNAs) seem to regulate the production of proteins coded in other genes, and seem to be almost identical in humans, mice and zebrafish. The recent sequencing of the mouse genome18 surprised researchers and led to headlines such as ??Junk DNA? Contains Essential Information.?19 They found that 5% of the genome was basically identical but only 2% of that was actual genes. So they reasoned that the other 3% must also be identical for a reason. The researchers believe the 3% probably has a crucial role in determining the behaviour of the actual genes, e.g. the order in which they are switched on.20

Also, damage to introns can be disastrous?in one example, deleting four ?letters? in the centre of an intron prevented the spliceosome from binding to it, resulting in the intron being included.21 Mutations in introns also interfere with imprinting, the process by which only certain genes from the mother or father are expressed, not both. Expression of both genes results in a variety of diseases and cancers.22

Another intriguing discovery is that DNA can conduct electrical signals as far as 60 ?letters,? enough to code for 20 amino acids. This is a typical length for molecular switches that turn on adjoining genes. Theoretically, the electrical signals could travel indefinitely. However, single or multiple pairings between A and T stop the signals; that is, they are insulators or ?electronic hinges in a circuit.? So, although these particular regions don?t code for proteins, they may protect essential genes from electrical damage from free radicals attacking a distant part of the DNA.23

So times have changed?Alexander H?ttenhofer of the University of M?nster, Germany, says:

?Five or six years ago, people said we were wasting our time. Today, no one regards people studying non-coding RNA as time-wasters.?24

Advanced operating system?
Dr John Mattick of the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, has published a number of papers arguing that the non-coding DNA regions, or rather their non-coding RNA ?negatives,? are important components of a complicated genetic network.25,26 These interact with each other, the DNA, mRNA and the proteins. Mattick proposes that the introns function as nodes, linking points in the network. The introns provide many extra connections, enabling what in computer terminology would be called multi-tasking and parallel processing.

More than just a super hard drive
Actually, DNA is far more complicated than simply coding for proteins, as we are discovering all the time.1 For example, because the DNA letters are read in groups of three, it makes a huge difference which letter we start from. E.g. the sequence GTTCAACGCTGAA ? can be read from the first letter, GTT CAA CGC TGA A ? but a totally different protein will result from starting from the second letter, TTC AAC GCT GAA ?

This means that DNA can be an even more compact information storage system. This partly explains the surprising finding of The Human Genome Project that there are ?only? about 35,000 genes, when humans can manufacture over 100,000 proteins.

Reference
Batten, D., Discoveries that undermine the one gene→one protein idea, Creation 24(4):13, 2002. Return to text.

In organisms, this network could control the order in which genes are switched on and off. This means that a tremendous variety of multicellular life could be produced by ?rewiring? the network. In contrast, ?early computers were like simple organisms, very cleverly designed [sic], but programmed for one task at a time.?27 The older computers were very inflexible, requiring a complete redesign of the network to change anything. Likewise, single-celled organisms such as bacteria can also afford to be inflexible, because they don?t have to develop as many-celled creatures do.

Evolutionary interpretation
Mattick suggests that this new system somehow evolved (despite the irreducible complexity) and in turn enabled the evolution of many complex living things from simple organisms. However, the same evidence is better interpreted from a Biblical framework. This system can indeed enable multicellular organisms to develop from a ?simple? cell?but this is the fertilized egg. This makes more sense; the fertilized egg has all the programming in place for all the information for a complex life-form to develop from an embryo.

It is also an example of good design economy pointing to a single designer as opposed to many. In contrast, the first simple cell to allegedly evolve the complex splicing machinery would have no introns needing splicing.

But Mattick may be partly right about diversification of life. Creationists also believe that life diversified?after the Flood. However, this diversification involved no new information. Some creationists have proposed that certain parts of currently non-coding DNA could have enabled faster diversification,28 and Mattick?s theory could provide still another mechanism.

Hindering science
A severe critic of Mattick?s theory, Jean-Michel Claverie of CNRS, the national research institute in Marseilles, France, said something very revealing:

?I don?t think much of this work. In general, all these global ideas don?t travel very far because they fail to take into account the most basic principle of biology: things arose by the additive addition of evolution of tiny subsystems, not by global design. It is perfectly possible that one intron in one given gene might have evolved?by chance?some regulatory property. It is utterly improbable that all genes might have acquired introns for the future property of regulating expression.?

Two points to note:

This agrees that if the intron system really is an advanced operating system, it really would be irreducibly complex, because evolution could not build it stepwise.

It illustrates the role of materialistic assumptions behind evolution. Usually, atheists such as Dawkins use evolution as ?proof? for their faith; in reality, evolution is deduced from their assumption of materialism! E.g. Richard Lewontin wrote, ? ? we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. ? Moreover, that materialism is an absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.?29 Scott Todd said, ?Even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such an hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic.?30

The circle of life
All living things have encyclopedic information content, a recipe for all their complex machinery and structures.
This is stored and transmitted to the next generation as a message on DNA ?letters,? but the message is in the arrangement, not the letters themselves.
The message requires decoding and transmission machinery, which itself is part of the stored ?message.?
The choices of the code and even the letters are optimal.
Therefore, the genetic coding system is an example of irreducible complexity.

Similarly, while many use ?junk? DNA as ?proof? of evolution, Claverie is using the assumption of evolution as ?proof? of its junkiness! This is again a parallel with vestigial organs. In reality, evolution was used as a proof of their vestigiality, and hindered research into their function. Claverie?s attitude could likewise hinder research into the networking capacity of non-coding DNA.

Summary
?Junk DNA? (or, rather, DNA that doesn?t directly code for proteins) is not evidence for evolution. Rather, its alleged junkiness is a deduction from the false assumption of evolution.

Just because no function is known, it doesn?t mean there is no function.

Many uses have been found for this non-coding DNA.

There is good evidence that it has an essential role as part of an elaborate genetic network. This could have a crucial role in the development of many-celled creatures from a single fertilized egg, and also in the post-Flood diversification (e.g. a canine kind giving rise to dingoes, wolves, coyotes etc.).

References and notes
DNA= deoxyribonucleic acid. See Wieland, C., The marvelous ?message molecule,? Creation 17(4):10?13, 1995. Return to text.
Dawkins, R., The Blind Watchmaker, W.W. Norton, New York, p. 115, 1986. Return to text.
Grigg, R., Information: A modern scientific design argument, Creation 22(2):52?53, 2000. Return to text.
Gitt, W., In the beginning was Information, CLV, Bielenfeld, Germany, 1997. Return to text.
Popper, K.R., Scientific Reduction and the Essential Incompleteness of All Science; in Ayala, F. and Dobzhansky, T., Eds., Studies in the Philosophy of Biology, University of California Press, Berkeley, p. 270, 1974. Return to text.
Sarfati, J., Self-replicating enzymes? CEN Tech. J. 11(1):4?6, 1997. Return to text.
Fraser, C.M. et al., The minimal gene complement of Mycoplasma genitalium, Science 270(5235):397?403, 1995; perspective by Goffeau, A., Life with 482 Genes, same issue, pp. 445?446. Return to text.
Gitt, W., Dazzling design in miniature, Creation 20(1):6, 1997. Return to text.
Sarfati, J., Origin of life: instability of building blocks, CEN Tech. J. 13(2):124?127, 1999. Return to text.
Bradley, D., The genome chose its alphabet with care, Science 297(5588):1789?91, 13 September 2002. Mac D?naill?s theory involves parity bits, an extra 1 or 0 added to a binary string to make it add up to an even number (e.g. when transmitting the number 11100110, add an extra 1 onto the end (11100110,1), and the number 11100001 has a zero added (11100001,0). If there is a single error changing a 1 to a 0 or vice versa, the string will add up to an odd number, so the receiver knows that it has not been transmitted accurately. Mac D?naill found that he could treat certain structural features of the DNA ?letters? as a four-digit binary number, with the fourth digit a parity bit. He found that these DNA letters all have even parity, while ?alphabets composed of nucleotides of mixed parity would have catastrophic error rates.? Return to text.
RNA = ribonucleic acid. Return to text.
Wiedersheim claimed that there were over 180 ?rudimentary? structures in the human body, including 86 ?vestigial? organs, in The Structure of Man: an Index to his Past History; transl. Bernard, by H. & M., Macmillan, London, 1895. Return to text.
The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (1993) defines ?vestigial? as ?degenerate or atrophied, having become functionless in the course of evolution.? Some evolutionists now re-define ?vestigial? to mean simply ?reduced or altered in function.? Thus, even valuable, functioning organs (consistent with design) might now be called ?vestigial.? This seems like changing the rules in the face of a losing argument. Return to text.
Scadding, S.R., Do ?vestigial organs? provide evidence for evolution?, Evolutionary Theory 5(3):173?176, 1981. Return to text.
See also Bergman, J. and Howe, G., ?Vestigial organs? are fully functional, Creation Research Society Books, Kansas City, 1990. Return to text.
A recent example was certain very short muscles in horse legs that are now known to have a vital role in dampening damaging vibrations. See Sarfati, J., Useless horse body parts? No way! Creation 24(3):24?25, 2002; based on Nature 414(6866):895?899, 855?857, 20/27 December 2001. Return to text.
For an overview, see Walkup, L., Junk DNA: evolutionary discards or God?s tools? CEN Tech. J. 14(2):18?30, 2000. Return to text.
Nature 420(6915):509?590, 5 December 2002. Return to text.
Gillis, J., ?Junk DNA? contains essential information?DNA has instructions needed for growth, survival, Washington Post, 4 December 2002. Return to text.
Evolutionists call the almost identical sequences ?highly conserved,? because they interpret the similarities as arising from a common ancestor, but with natural selection eliminating any deviations in this 5% because precision is essential for it to function properly. Creationists interpret the same evidence as evidence of a designer creating the sequences in a precise way, because that?s necessary for it to function. This is one more example of how allegedly evolution-inspired scientific advances make at least equal sense under a Biblical framework. Return to text.
Cohen, P., New genetic spanner in the works, New Scientist 173(2334):17, 16 March 2002. Return to text.
Batten, D., ?Junk? DNA (again), CEN Tech. J. 12(1):5, 1998. Return to text.
Coglan, A., Electric DNA: There?s another information superhighway lurking in our genes, New Scientist 161(2173):19, 13 February 1999; citing Jacqueline Barton of the California Institute of Technology, Chemistry & Biology 6(2):85. Return to text.
Dennis, C., The brave new world of RNA, Nature 418(6894):122?124, 11 July 2002; cited on p. 124. Return to text.
Mattick, J.S. Non-coding RNAs: The architects of eukaryotic complexity, EMBO Reports 2:986?991, November 2001. Return to text.
Cooper, M., Life 2.0, New Scientist 174(2346):30?33, 8 June 2002; Dennis, ref. 24. Return to text.
Ref. 26, p. 32. Return to text.
E.g. Wood, T.C., Altruistic Genetic Elements (AGEs), cited in Walkup, ref. 17. Return to text.
Lewontin, R., Billions and billions of demons, The New York Review, 9 January 1997, p. 31; Evolutionist?s blind faith in atheism, regardless of how absurd it seems. Return to text.
Todd, S.C., correspondence to Nature 401(6752):423, 30 Sept. 1999; A designer is unscientific?even if all the evidence supports one! Return to text.

[quote]IagoMB wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
More evidence on I.D. (hey, you guys whined about not gettin’ any (LOL) so don’t whine now that you’re gettin’ it in spades):

As I’ve posted earlier, no we’re not. [/quote]

Some of the college boy, dick-waving stuff I was referring to. [quote]Xvim wrote:
Please provide similar proof for the existance of an Intellegent Designer or stfu.[/quote]
There’s more. Scroll back and look.

[quote]Xvim wrote:
Please provide similar proof for the existance of an Intellegent Designer or stfu.[/quote]

“Proof” can’t be provided…by anyone for intelligent design OR uniformitarianism/macroevolution/spontaneous formation of life in the absence of a Creator. Evidence can be. Then it’s up to us which set of glasses we put on to view that evidence.

Those who wish to promote the idea of the origins of life in the absence of an intelligent designer/Creator are “cheating with chance”.

Cheating with chance
by Don Batten

The argument from probability that life could not form by natural processes but must have been created is sometimes acknowledged by evolutionists as a strong argument.1 The probability of the chance formation of a hypothetical functional ?simple? cell, given all the ingredients, is acknowledged2 to be worse than 1 in 1057800. This is a chance of 1 in a number with 57,800 zeros. It would take 11 full pages of magazine type to print this number. To try to put this in perspective, there are about 1080 (a number with 80 zeros) electrons in the universe. Even if every electron in our universe were another universe the same size as ours that would ?only? amount to 10160 electrons.

These numbers defy our ability to comprehend their size. Fred Hoyle, British mathematician and astronomer, has used analogies to try to convey the immensity of the problem. For example, Hoyle said the probability of the formation of just one of the many proteins on which life depends is comparable to that of the solar system packed full of blind people randomly shuffling Rubik?s cubes all arriving at the solution at the same time3?and this is the chance of getting only one of the 400 or more proteins of the hypothetical minimum cell proposed by the evolutionists (real world ?simple? bacteria have about 2,000 proteins and are incredibly complex). As Hoyle points out, the program of the cell, encoded on the DNA, is also needed. In other words, life could not form by natural (random) processes.

Evolutionists often try to bluff their way out of this problem by using analogies to argue that improbable things happen every day, so why should the naturalistic origin of life be considered impossible. For example, they say the odds of winning the lottery are pretty remote, but someone wins it every week. Or, the chances of getting the particular arrangement of cards obtained by shuffling a deck is remote, but a rare combination happens every time the cards are shuffled. Or the arrangement of the sand grains in a pile of sand obtained by randomly pouring the sand is extremely complex, but this complex and improbable arrangement did occur as a result of random processes. Or the exact combination and arrangement of people walking across a busy city street is highly improbable, but such improbable arrangements happen all the time. So they argue from these analogies to try to dilute the force of this powerful argument for creation.

You probably realize there is something illogical about this line of argument. But what is it?

In all the analogies cited above, there has to be an outcome. Someone has to win the lottery. There will be an arrangement of cards. There will be a pile of sand. There will be people walking across the busy street. By contrast, in the processes by which life is supposed to have formed, there need not necessarily be an outcome. Indeed the probabilities argue against any outcome. That is the whole point of the argument. But then the evolutionist may counter that it did happen because we are here! This is circular reasoning at its worst.

Note several other things about these analogies:

Creationists do not argue that life is merely complex, but that it is ordered in such a way as to defy a natural explanation. The order in the proteins and DNA of living things is independent of the properties of the chemicals of which they consist?unlike an ice crystal where the structure results from the properties of the water molecule. The order in living things parallels that in printed books where the information is not contained in the ink, or even in the letters, but in the complex arrangement of letters which make up words, words which make up sentences, sentences which make up paragraphs, paragraphs which make up chapters and chapters which make up books. These components of written language respectively parallel the nucleic acid bases, codons, genes, operons, chromosomes and genomes which make up the genetic programs of living cells.

The order in living things shows they are the product of intelligence. The result of the lottery draw is clearly the result of a random selection?unless family members of the lottery supervisor consistently win! Then we would conclude that the draw has not been random?it is not the result of a random process, but the result of an intelligent agent.

The arrangement of cards resulting from shuffling would not normally suggest anything other than a random process. However, if all the cards were ordered by their suits from lowest to highest, we would logically conclude that an intelligent agent arranged them (or ?stacked the deck? in card-playing parlance) because such an arrangement is highly unlikely from genuine shuffling?a random, non-intelligent process.

The arrangement of the sand grains in a pile would not normally suggest it resulted from intelligent activity rather than natural processes. However, if all the sand grains were lined up in single file, or were in a neat rectangle, we would attribute this to an intelligent agent, or a machine made by an intelligent agent, as this would not be likely from a natural process.

The arrangement of people crossing a busy street would not normally suggest anything other than a random process. However, if all the people were ordered from shortest to tallest, or some other ordered arrangement, we would suspect that an intelligent agent was responsible for putting them in this order?that it did not result from chance. If 20 people were arranged from shortest to tallest, the odds of this happening by chance are less than one in a billion, billion (1018), so it would be reasonable to conclude that such an ordered arrangement was not due to chance whereas there would be nothing to suggest intelligent involvement if there was no meaningful pattern to the arrangement of people.

Many scientists today claim that an invisible ?intelligent cause? is outside the realm of ?real? science. These scientists have redefined science as naturalism (nature is all there is). However, scientists recognise the evidence for an invisible intelligent agent when it suits them. For example, forensic science determines if past events were the result of accident or plan and purpose (?Who done it??). The Piltdown ape-man fraud was discovered, after some 40 years and numerous postgraduate research theses, when researchers had the opportunity to examine the original bones and not just replicas, and they noticed file marks on the teeth.4 Such marks do not happen by natural processes and the researchers recognised the involvement of a human (intelligent) agent?a hoaxer.

Likewise, United States taxpayers are spending millions of dollars yearly in funding the Search for Extra-terrestrial Intelligence (SETI). If those listening hear a radio signal with random noise, it is clearly the product of a natural process, but if there is a pattern such as ?dah-dah-dah-dit-dit-dit-dah-dah-dah?, it will be hailed as evidence for an intelligent, although invisible, source.

If such evidence indicate an intelligent source then surely the incredible amount of information on the DNA in living things, equivalent to a library of a thousand 500- page books in a human being,5 shouts Creation by a Creator! The more we know about the biochemical workings of living cells, the stronger the evidence becomes for the intimate involvement of a creator. We are indeed fearfully and wonderfully made and no amount of illogical and irrelevant analogy will counter the clear evidence for this.

References
D.A. Bradbury, ?Reply to Landau and Landau?, Creation/Evolution 13(2):48?49, 1993. Return to text.

Ref. 1. Return to text.

F. Hoyle, ?The big bang in astronomy?, New Scientist, 92(1280):527, 1981. Return to text.

M.L. Lubenow, Bones of Contention?a Creationist Assessment of Human Fossils, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1992, pp. 39?44. Return to text.

M. Denton, Evolution: Theory in Crisis, Burnett Books, London, 1985, p.351. Return to text.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
IagoMB wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
“We all take unconscious belief systems to the evidence.”

I really believe this is true for both sides of this argument. Those of you on the other side who are truly objective should agree.

Either we have a working philosophy based on a questioning method to explain why we believe the things we do, or we allow the creation of our souls to fall to chance (yes I know, I’m paraphrasing Mentzer but it’s true). Know thyself, question your questions, re-evaluate all values.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh yeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Whatever you do, DON’T QUOTE MENTZER! LOL

(Interesting and ironic that you mention Mentzer here. He was also a “My way or the highway” guy. With him also, everybody who didn’t toe his line was wrong, wrong, wrong. He promoted the idea that his thoughts should be universally accepted or you are “stupid”. Woe be unto you if you disageed with him. I wouldn’t think that quoting one noted for his narrow-mindedness would be in the best interests of arguing your point here but… you did. Thanks.)

[/quote]

You’ve made this mistake before. You need to separate the person from the quote. What the person is noted for has no impact on the truth or lack of truth in what the person says. In other words, a true statement stands on it’s own. This is a little like what I posted earlier on celebrity endorsements. AND, my statement still stands true by the way.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
Evidence exists for both sides. How you view the evidence hinges on which pair of glasses you’re wearing. We all wear some type of glasses in this scenario whether you like that idea or not.

2+2=4 no matter what eye ware you use.

Yes, but we are not discussing mathematics - we’re discussing history.
[/quote]

No I am discussing evidence.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
We are dealing with things that happened in the past and for the most part cannot be subjected to experimentation in the present. Despite what has been trumpeted to the contrary on this thread that presents a major hurdle when dealing with this evidence regardless which side of the debate you are on.

It’s a hurdle that most biologist and archaeologist are able to get over. Other scientists as well, for example as was posted earlier on quarks and photons. They have to get over the hurdle of not being able to “see” these particles yet the evidence points to their existence.

I agree but I believe that they use that eeeeeeeeeeeevil concept of faith as their means “to get over” those hurdles.[/quote]

So doctors use faith in diagnosing unknown diseases? Can’t they look at the symptoms (empirical evidence) and then test to see what happens? You think the scientists we’re writing about don’t do this as well?

Secondly, I guess you’re implying that I think faith is bad? I have faith in God so I have no idea what you’re arguing about now. Faith is not evil. Using faith as science is wrong.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
Those who wish to promote the idea of the origins of life in the absence of an intelligent designer/Creator are “cheating with chance”.

Cheating with chance
by Don Batten

[/quote]
Look if you’re going to continue to paste the articles from the creationist site that promotes the Bible as literal truth, at least do us the courtesy of just giving the title and a link.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i2/chance.asp

[quote]pushharder wrote:
IagoMB wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
Those who wish to promote the idea of the origins of life in the absence of an intelligent designer/Creator are “cheating with chance”.

Cheating with chance
by Don Batten

Look if you’re going to continue to paste the articles from the creationist site that promotes the Bible as literal truth, at least do us the courtesy of just giving the title and a link.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i2/chance.asp

Looks like he’s done exactly that, just not in all cases. Gee, you get offended easily. Lighten up.[/quote]

My hand is tired from scrolling down. He posted the full articles with references for the last two pages here! I’m not offended, just annoyed.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
IagoMB wrote:
… AND, my statement still stands true by the way.

IF you say so.[/quote]

Two things. 1. Are you stating that what a person is noted for can change the truth of a statement?
2. Can you tell me what’s false about the statement?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Secondly, I guess you’re implying that I think faith is bad? I think that has been the general gist. Yes.

In all fairness, maybe not that overtly on your part. However, don’t even begin to suggest that your allies on this thread have not suggested such. If you do, then you have been very selective on reading the posts.
[/quote]

The post was directed towards me. I really don’t care what my “allies” think about faith.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I have faith in God so I have no idea what you’re arguing about now.

I find this hard to believe based on the … evidence.[/quote]

I really hope you’re joking here. Faith is a very personal virtue my life and the only evidence I need is what’s in my heart (that’s what faith is). Science, which is what this whole thread is about, is a separate matter that deals with empirical evidence. That’s all I’m going to write about the subject.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
IagoMB wrote:

My hand is tired from scrolling down…

O good grief.

just annoyed.

Deal with it. Get over it. It’ll make you a stronger person.
[/quote]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
IagoMB wrote:

…My hand is tired …

Maybe this’ll help you out.

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=247timber2[/quote]

LOL! Thanks!

[quote]IagoMB wrote:

…Science, which is what this whole thread is about…[/quote]

I beg to differ. This thread is “all about” science, history, and faith…and how they intertwine.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Just goes to show you that evidence can be viewed in different ways, huh? Different conclusions can be arrived at by different persons even when they are looking at the exact same evidence.[/quote]

Not in matters of faith and the natural sciences. Faith does not need empirical evidence. Since theories about the natural world need to be supported with empirical evidence faith is not a good tool.

To paraphrase Houston Smith, If you could prove God exists then what would be the value of faith?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
IagoMB wrote:
Science, which is what this whole thread is about, is a separate matter that deals with empirical evidence. That’s all I’m going to write about the subject.

Au contraire. Our faith influences what set of glasses we bring to the table when we examine the evidence.[/quote]

If you’re starting with faith then you already have your answer. That’s not science, that’s faith. Keep it out of the science classroom.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
IagoMB wrote:

…Science, which is what this whole thread is about…

I beg to differ. This thread is “all about” science, history, and faith…and how they intertwine.

[/quote]

Huh? This thread is Dissecting ID, and from the first post it’s been about showing how it is faith based and not a science and therefore should not be taught in a science classroom.

[quote]IagoMB wrote:
pushharder wrote:

Since theories about the natural world need to be supported with empirical evidence faith is not a good tool.

[/quote]

We are discussing theories about the past natural world. Therefore we are also discussing history. We are discussing evidence that was produced a long time ago. Despite claims to the contrary we are discussing evidence that can be viewed in more ways than one. We are discussing theories where scientists with impeccable credentials differ radically as to their interpretations of said evidence. We are discussing theories with ideas that by their inherent nature cannot be confirmed by repeated experimentation. We are discussing theories that require presuppositions on both sides that have to be taken on faith. Sorry, you can deny that all you want but …______________________ (fill in your favorite Mentzer quote here if you wish)

[quote]IagoMB wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
IagoMB wrote:

…Science, which is what this whole thread is about…

I beg to differ. This thread is “all about” science, history, and faith…and how they intertwine.

Huh? This thread is Dissecting ID, and from the first post it’s been about showing how it is faith based and not a science and therefore should not be taught in a science classroom.[/quote]

We have also extensively discussed how unobservable evolution (macro) is faith based and not a science…