Dissecting ID

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
orion wrote:

Gould and macroevolution, puulllease… Gould is one of the proponents of macroevolution and the gaps in the fossil chain mean to him (or meant to him) that macroevolution MUST have occured. To use him to prove that even evolutionists do not believe in macroevolution? Roflmao…

Speaking of cognitive dissonances… Orion needs some more reading comprehension skills…he apparently did not understand the use of the Gould quotes.
[/quote]

I will look it up… But after the 732 discussion of ID, I sometimes listen more to the voices in my head than to the signs on the screen…

[quote]orion wrote:
Floortom wrote:
I’m going to dissent a bit here. Take a look at that list of scientists posted by Throttle and you can see that almost all of them are creationists who believe that the world is approximately 6,000 years old.

How else to describe that belief other than stupidity?? At best maybe it’s some sort of dissociative disorder. To actually believe such an absurd idea in the face of mountains and mountains of evidence…well, you guys call it what you want but I think you’re being a bit too kind in taking stupidity out of the equation.

Look at personality disorders, especially those involving some kind of “ascetic” narcissism. If you manage to put the things you would believe anyway into the frame of religion, suddenly it is accepted and no longer seriously questioned by society. Convenient, isn?t it?

An allmighty father figure, ready to crush those who disobey him, a holy Mary pure, untouched, clean, completely asexual and not frightening, fear of homosexuality, the desperate need to persuade/persecute others…

You think stupidity is all that is going on? If you need to believe something, because everything else means triggering raw primal fear, you will believe it. [/quote]

I dont think stupidity is ALL that is going on, but it is a factor to consider.

Of course, this is dependent on how one defiens stupidity. I am not using the term as one might use it to describe a a mentally handicapped individual or an individual with a sub 80 IQ.

I think it’s important to also realize that with many of these individuals, you obviously have a dissociative syndrome. They HAVE to accept and reject certain ideas–they have no other choice and it’s the only way they can cope. That is certainly why you can get a well-educated individual believing in a 6,000 year old earth. I also think stupidity is another reason–the inability or refusal to consider the mountains of evidence in direct opposition to one’s preconceptions.

Since the topic at hand seems to have shifted to the “Young Earth” theory, I thought I’d post some evidence for it.

Evidence for a Young World
by Russell Humphreys
Here are a dozen natural phenomena which conflict with the evolutionary idea that the universe is billions of years old. The numbers I list below in bold print (often millions of years) are maximum possible ages set by each process, not the actual ages. The numbers in italics are the ages required by evolutionary theory for each item. The point is that the maximum possible ages are always much less than the required evolutionary ages, while the Biblical age (6,000 to 10,000 years) always fits comfortably within the maximum possible ages. Thus the following items are evidence against the evolutionary time scale and for the Biblical time scale.

Much more young-world evidence exists, but I have chosen these items for brevity and simplicity. Some of the items on this list can be reconciled with an old universe only by making a series of improbable and unproven assumptions; others can fit in only with a young universe. The list starts with distant astronomic phenomena and works its way down to Earth, ending with everyday facts.

  1. Galaxies wind themselves up too fast

The stars of our own galaxy, the Milky Way, rotate about the galactic center with different speeds, the inner ones rotating faster than the outer ones. The observed rotation speeds are so fast that if our galaxy were more than a few hundred million years old, it would be a featureless disc of stars instead of its present spiral shape.1

Yet our galaxy is supposed to be at least 10 billion years old. Evolutionists call this ?the winding-up dilemma?, which they have known about for fifty years. They have devised many theories to try to explain it, each one failing after a brief period of popularity. The same ?winding-up? dilemma also applies to other galaxies.

For the last few decades the favored attempt to resolve the dilemma has been a complex theory called ?density waves?.1 The theory has conceptual problems, has to be arbitrarily and very finely tuned, and lately has been called into serious question by the Hubble Space Telescope?s discovery of very detailed spiral structure in the central hub of the ?Whirlpool? galaxy, M51.2

  1. Comets disintegrate too quickly
    According to evolutionary theory, comets are supposed to be the same age as the solar system, about 5 billion years. Yet each time a comet orbits close to the sun, it loses so much of its material that it could not survive much longer than about 100,000 years. Many comets have typical ages of 10,000 years.3

Evolutionists explain this discrepancy by assuming that (a) comets come from an unobserved spherical ?Oort cloud? well beyond the orbit of Pluto, (b) improbable gravitational interactions with infrequently passing stars often knock comets into the solar system, and (c) other improbable interactions with planets slow down the incoming comets often enough to account for the hundreds of comets observed.4 So far, none of these assumptions has been substantiated either by observations or realistic calculations.

Lately, there has been much talk of the ?Kuiper Belt?, a disc of supposed comet sources lying in the plane of the solar system just outside the orbit of Pluto. Even if some bodies of ice exist in that location, they would not really solve the evolutionists? problem, since according to evolutionary theory the Kuiper Belt would quickly become exhausted if there were no Oort cloud to supply it. [For more information, see the detailed technical article Comets and the Age of the Solar System.]

  1. Not enough mud on the sea floor
    Each year, water and winds erode about 25 billion tons of dirt and rock from the continents and deposit it in the ocean.5 This material accumulates as loose sediment (i.e., mud) on the hard basaltic (lava-formed) rock of the ocean floor. The average depth of all the mud in the whole ocean, including the continental shelves, is less than 400 meters.6

The main way known to remove the mud from the ocean floor is by plate tectonic subduction. That is, sea floor slides slowly (a few cm/year) beneath the continents, taking some sediment with it. According to secular scientific literature, that process presently removes only 1 billion tons per year. 6 As far as anyone knows, the other 24 billion tons per year simply accumulate. At that rate, erosion would deposit the present amount of sediment in less than 12 million years.

Yet according to evolutionary theory, erosion and plate subduction have been going on as long as the oceans have existed, an alleged 3 billion years. If that were so, the rates above imply that the oceans would be massively choked with mud dozens of kilometers deep. An alternative (creationist) explanation is that erosion from the waters of the Genesis flood running off the continents deposited the present amount of mud within a short time about 5000 years ago.

  1. Not enough sodium in the sea
    Every year, river7 and other sources9 dump over 450 million tons of sodium into the ocean. Only 27% of this sodium manages to get back out of the sea each year.8,9 As far as anyone knows, the remainder simply accumulates in the ocean. If the sea had no sodium to start with, it would have accumulated its present amount in less than 42 million years at today?s input and output rates.9 This is much less than the evolutionary age of the ocean, 3 billion years. The usual reply to this discrepancy is that past sodium inputs must have been less and outputs greater. However, calculations which are as generous as possible to evolutionary scenarios still give a maximum age of only 62 million years.9 Calculations10 for many other sea water elements give much younger ages for the ocean. [See also Salty seas: Evidence for a young Earth.]

  2. The Earth?s magnetic field is decaying too fast
    The total energy stored in the Earth?s magnetic field has steadily decreased by a factor of 2.7 over the past 1000 years.11 Evolutionary theories explaining this rapid decrease, as well as how the Earth could have maintained its magnetic field for billions of years, are very complex and inadequate.

A much better creationist theory exists. It is straightforward, based on sound physics, and explains many features of the field: its creation, rapid reversals during the Genesis flood, surface intensity decreases and increases until the time of Christ, and a steady decay since then.12 This theory matches paleomagnetic, historic, and present data.13 The main result is that the field?s total energy (not surface intensity) has always decayed at least as fast as now. At that rate the field could not be more than 10,000 years old.14 [See also The Earth?s magnetic field: Evidence that the Earth is young.]

  1. Many strata are too tightly bent
    In many mountainous areas, strata thousands of feet thick are bent and folded into hairpin shapes. The conventional geologic time scale says these formations were deeply buried and solidified for hundreds of millions of years before they were bent. Yet the folding occurred without cracking, with radii so small that the entire formation had to be still wet and unsolidified when the bending occurred. This implies that the folding occurred less than thousands of years after deposition.15

  2. Injected sandstone shortens geologic ?ages?
    Strong geologic evidence16 exists that the Cambrian Sawatch sandstone ? formed an alleged 500 million years ago ? of the Ute Pass fault west of Colorado Springs was still unsolidified when it was extruded up to the surface during the uplift of the Rocky Mountains, allegedly 70 million years ago. It is very unlikely that the sandstone would not solidify during the supposed 430 million years it was underground. Instead, it is likely that the two geologic events were less than hundreds of years apart, thus greatly shortening the geologic time scale.

  3. Fossil radioactivity shortens geologic ?ages? to a few years
    Radiohalos are rings of color formed around microscopic bits of radioactive minerals in rock crystals. They are fossil evidence of radioactive decay.17 ?Squashed? Polonium-210 radiohalos indicate that Jurassic, Triassic, and Eocene formations in the Colorado plateau were deposited within months of one another, not hundreds of millions of years apart as required by the conventional time scale.18 ?Orphan? Polonium-218 radiohalos, having no evidence of their mother elements, imply either instant creation or drastic changes in radioactivity decay rates.19,20

  4. Helium in the wrong places
    All naturally-occurring families of radioactive elements generate helium as they decay. If such decay took place for billions of years, as alleged by evolutionists, much helium should have found its way into the Earth?s atmosphere. The rate of loss of helium from the atmosphere into space is calculable and small. Taking that loss into account, the atmosphere today has only 0.05% of the amount of helium it would have accumulated in 5 billion years.21 This means the atmosphere is much younger than the alleged evolutionary age. A study published in the Journal of Geophysical Research shows that helium produced by radioactive decay in deep, hot rocks has not had time to escape. Though the rocks are supposed to be over one billion years old, their large helium retention suggests an age of only thousands of years.22 [See also Blowing Old-Earth Belief Away: Helium gives evidence that the Earth is young.]

  5. Not enough stone age skeletons
    Evolutionary anthropologists say that the stone age lasted for at least 100,000 years, during which time the world population of Neanderthal and Cro-magnon men was roughly constant, between 1 and 10 million. All that time they were burying their dead with artefacts.23 By this scenario, they would have buried at least 4 billion bodies.24 If the evolutionary time scale is correct, buried bones should be able to last for much longer than 100,000 years, so many of the supposed 4 billion stone age skeletons should still be around (and certainly the buried artefacts). Yet only a few thousand have been found. This implies that the stone age was much shorter than evolutionists think, a few hundred years in many areas.

  6. Agriculture is too recent
    The usual evolutionary picture has men existing as hunters and gatherers for 100,000 years during the stone age before discovering agriculture less than 10,000 years ago.23 Yet the archaeological evidence shows that stone age men were as intelligent as we are. It is very improbable that none of the 4 billion people mentioned in item 10 should discover that plants grow from seeds. It is more likely that men were without agriculture less than a few hundred years after the flood, if at all.24

  7. History is too short
    According to evolutionists, stone age man existed for 100,000 years before beginning to make written records about 4000 to 5000 years ago. Prehistoric man built megalithic monuments, made beautiful cave paintings, and kept records of lunar phases.25 Why would he wait a thousand centuries before using the same skills to record history? The Biblical time scale is much more likely.24

References
Scheffler, H. and H. Elsasser, Physics of the Galaxy and Interstellar Matter, Springer-Verlag (1987) Berlin, pp. 352?353, 401?413.

D. Zaritsky et al., Nature, July 22, 1993. Sky & Telescope, December 1993, p. 10.

Steidl, P.F., ?Planets, comets, and asteroids?, Design and Origins in Astronomy, pp. 73?106, G. Mulfinger, ed., Creation Research Society Books (1983) 5093 Williamsport Dr., Norcross, GA 30092.

Whipple, F.L., “Background of modern comet theory,” Nature 263 (2 Sept 1976) 15.

Gordeyev, V.V. et al., ?The average chemical composition of suspensions in the world?s rivers and the supply of sediments to the ocean by streams?, Dockl. Akad. Nauk. SSSR 238 (1980) 150.

Hay, W.W., et al., ?Mass/age distribution and composition of sediments on the ocean floor and the global rate of subduction?, Journal of Geophysical Research, 93, No B12 (10 December 1988) 14,933?14,940.

Maybeck, M., ?Concentrations des eaux fluviales en elements majeurs et apports en solution aux oceans?, Rev. de Geol. Dyn. Geogr. Phys. 21 (1979) 215.

Sayles, F.L. and P.C. Mangelsdorf, ?Cation-exchange characteristics of Amazon River suspended sediment and its reaction with seawater?, Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta 41 (1979) 767.

Austin, S.A. and D.R. Humphreys, ?The sea?s missing salt: a dilemma for evolutionists?, Proc. 2nd Internat. Conf. on Creationism, Vol. II, Creation Science Fellowship (1991) in press. Address, ref. 12.

Austin, S.A., ?Evolution: the oceans say no!? ICR Impact No. 8 (Oct. 1973) Institute for Creation Research, address in ref. 21.

Merrill, R.T. and M. W. McElhinney, The Earth?s Magnetic Field , Academic Press (1983) London, pp. 101?106.

Humphreys, D.R., ?Reversals of the earth?s magnetic field during the Genesis flood?, Proc. 1st Internat. Conf. on Creationism (Aug. 1986, Pittsburgh) Creation Science Fellowship (1987) 362 Ashland Ave., Pittsburgh, PA 15228, Vol. II, pp. 113?126.

Coe, R.S., M. Pr?vot, and P. Camps, ?New evidence for extraordinarily rapid change of the geomagnetic field during a reversal?, Nature 374 (20 April 1995) pp. 687?92.

Humphreys, D.R., ?Physical mechanism for reversals of the earth?s magnetic field during the flood?, Proc. 2nd Intern. Conf. on Creationism, Vol. II, Creation Science Fellowship (1991) (ref. 12).

Austin, S.A. and J.D. Morris, ?Tight folds and clastic dikes as evidence for rapid deposition and deformation of two very thick stratigraphic sequences?, Proc. 1st Internat. Conf. on Creationism Vol. II, Creation Science Fellowship (1986) pp.3?15. Address in ref. 12.

ibid., pp. 11?12.

Gentry, R.V., ?Radioactive halos?, Annual Review of Nuclear Science 23 (1973) 347?362.

Gentry, R.V. et al., ?Radiohalos in coalified wood: new evidence relating to time of uranium introduction and coalification?, Science 194 (15 Oct. 1976) 315?318.

Gentry, R. V., ?Radiohalos in a Radiochronological and cosmological perspective?, Science 184 (5 Apr. 1974) 62?66.

Gentry, R. V., Creation?s Tiny Mystery, Earth Science Associates (1986) P.O. Box 12067, Knoxville, TN 37912-0067, pp. 23?37, 51?59, 61?62.

Vardiman, L.The Age of the Earth?s Atmosphere: A Study of the Helium Flux through the Atmosphere, Institute for Creation Research (1990) P.O.Box 2667, El Cajon, CA 92021.

Gentry, R. V. et al., ?Differential helium retention in zircons: implications for nuclear waste management?, Geophys. Res. Lett. 9 (Oct. 1982) 1129?1130. See also ref. 20, pp. 169?170.

Deevey, E.S., ?The human population?, Scientific American 203 (Sept. 1960) 194?204.

Marshak, A., ?Exploring the mind of Ice Age man?, Nat. Geog. 147 (Jan. 1975) 64?89.

Dritt, J. O., ?Man?s earliest beginnings: discrepancies in the evolutionary timetable?, Proc. 2nd Internat. Conf. on Creat., Vol. I., Creation Science Fellowship (1990) pp. 73?78. Address, ref. 12.

More on the idea of a young earth. (Hope those of you who taunted Push and I about reading your posted links about evidence will show your vaunted objectivity and read this)

How old is the earth?
by Jonathan Sarfati, Ph.D., F.M.

First published in Refuting Evolution
Chapter 8

For particles-to-people evolution to have occurred, the earth would need to be billions of years old. So Teaching about Evolution and the Nature of Science presents what it claims is evidence for vast time spans. This is graphically illustrated in a chart on pages 36?37: man?s existence is in such a tiny segment at the end of a 5-billion-year time-line that it has to be diagrammatically magnified twice to show up.

On the other hand, basing one?s ideas on the Bible gives a very different picture. The Bible states that man was made six days after creation, about 6,000 years ago. So a time-line of the world constructed on biblical data would have man almost at the beginning, not the end. If we took the same 15-inch (39 cm) time-line as does Teaching about Evolution to represent the biblical history of the earth, man would be about 1/1000th of a mm away from the beginning! Also, Christians, by definition, take the statements of Jesus Christ seriously. He said: ?But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female? (Mark 10:6), which would make sense with the proposed biblical time-line, but is diametrically opposed to the Teaching about Evolution time-line.

This chapter analyzes rock formation and dating methods in terms of what these two competing models would predict.

The rocks
The vast thicknesses of sedimentary rocks around the world are commonly used as evidence for vast age. First, Teaching about Evolution gives a useful definition on page 33:

Sedimentary rocks are formed when solid materials carried by wind and water accumulate in layers and then are compressed by overlying deposits. Sedimentary rocks sometimes contain fossils formed from the parts of organisms deposited along with other solid materials.

The ?deep time? indoctrination comes with the statement ?often reaching great thicknesses over long periods of time.? However, this goes beyond the evidence. Great thicknesses could conceivably be produced either by a little water over long periods, or a lot of water over short periods. We have already discussed how different biases can result in different interpretations of the same data, in this case the rock layers. It is a philosophical decision, not a scientific one, to prefer the former interpretation. Because sedimentation usually occurs slowly today, it is assumed that it must have always occurred slowly. If so, then the rock layers must have formed over vast ages. The philosophy that processes have always occurred at roughly constant rates (?the present is the key to the past?) is often called uniformitarianism.

Uniformitarianism was defined this way in my own university geology class in 1983, and was contrasted with catastrophism. But more recently, the word ?uniformitarianism? has been applied in other contexts to mean also constancy of natural laws, sometimes called ?methodological uniformitarianism,? as opposed to what some have called ?substantive uniformitarianism.?

It should also be pointed out that uniformitarian geologists have long allowed for the occasional (localized) catastrophic event. However, modern historical geology grew out of this general ?slow and gradual? principle, which is still the predominantly preferred framework of explanation for any geological formation. Nevertheless, the evidence for catastrophic formation is so pervasive that there is a growing body of neo-catastrophists. But because of their naturalistic bias, they prefer, of course, to reject the explanation of the Genesis (global) flood.

However, a cataclysmic globe-covering (and fossil-forming) flood would have eroded huge quantities of sediment, and deposited them elsewhere. Many organisms would have been buried very quickly and fossilized.

Also, recent catastrophes show that violent events like the flood described in Genesis could form many rock layers very quickly. The Mount St. Helens eruption in Washington state produced 25 feet (7.6 meters) of finely layered sediment in a single afternoon!1 And a rapidly pumped sand slurry was observed to deposit 3 to 4 feet (about 1 meter) of fine layers on a beach over an area the size of a football field.2 Sedimentation experiments by the creationist Guy Berthault, sometimes working with non-creationists, have shown that fine layers can form by a self-sorting mechanism during the settling of differently sized particles.3

In one of Berthault?s experiments, finely layered sandstone and diatomite rocks were broken into their constituent particles, and allowed to settle under running water at various speeds. It was found that the same layer thicknesses were reproduced, regardless of flow rate. This suggests that the original rock was produced by a similar self-sorting mechanism, followed by cementing of the particles together.4 The journal Nature reported similar experiments by evolutionists a decade after Berthault?s first experiments.5

So when we start from the bias that the Bible is God?s Word and is thus true, we can derive reasonable interpretations of the data. Not that every problem has been solved, but many of them have been.

Conversely, how does the ?slow and gradual? explanation fare? Think how long dead organisms normally last. Scavengers and rotting normally remove all traces within weeks. Dead jellyfish normally melt away in days. Yet Teaching about Evolution has a photo of a fossil jellyfish on page 36. It clearly couldn?t have been buried slowly, but must have been buried quickly by sediments carried by water. This water would also have contained dissolved minerals, which would have caused the sediments to have been cemented together, and so hardened quickly.

The booklet Stones and Bones6 shows other fossils that must have formed rapidly. One is a 7-foot (2m) long ichthyosaur (extinct fish-shaped marine reptile) fossilized while giving birth. Another is a fish fossilized in the middle of its lunch. And there is a vertical tree trunk that penetrates several rock layers (hence the term polystrate fossil). If the upper sedimentary layers really took millions or even hundreds of years to form, then the top of the tree trunk would have rotted away.

Ironically, NASA scientists accept that there have been ?catastrophic floods? on Mars7 that carved out canyons8 although no liquid water is present today. But they deny that a global flood happened on earth, where there is enough water to cover the whole planet to a depth of 1.7 miles (2.7 km) if it were completely uniform, and even now covers 71 percent of the earth?s surface! If it weren?t for the fact that the Bible teaches it, they probably wouldn?t have any problem with a global flood on earth. This demonstrates again how the biases of scientists affect their interpretation of the evidence.

Radiometric dating
As shown above, the evidence from the geological record is consistent with catastrophes, and there are many features that are hard to explain by slow and gradual processes. However, evolutionists point to dating methods that allegedly support deep time. The best known is radiometric dating. This is accurately described on page 35 of Teaching about Evolution:

Some elements, such as uranium, undergo radioactive decay to produce other elements. By measuring the quantities of radioactive elements and the elements into which they decay in rocks, geologists can determine how much time has elapsed since the rock has cooled from an initially molten state.

However, the deep time ?determination? is an interpretation; the actual scientific data are isotope ratios. Each chemical element usually has several different forms, or isotopes, which have different masses. There are other possible interpretations, depending on the assumptions. This can be illustrated with an hourglass. When it is up-ended, sand flows from the top container to the bottom one at a rate that can be measured. If we observe an hourglass with the sand still flowing, we can determine how long ago it was up-ended from the quantities of sand in both containers and the flow rate. Or can we? First, we must assume three things:

An hourglass ?clock? tells us the elapsed time by comparing the amount of sand in the top bowl (?Parent?) with the amount in the bottom bowl (?Daughter?).

We know the quantities of sand in both containers at the start. Normally, an hourglass is up-ended when the top container is empty. But if this were not so, then it would take less time for the sand to fill the new bottom container to a particular level.

The rate has stayed constant. For example, if the sand had become damp recently, it would flow more slowly now than in the past. If the flow were greater in the past, it would take less time for the sand to reach a certain level than it would if the sand had always flowed at the present rate.

The system has remained closed. That is, no sand has been added or removed from either container. However, suppose that, without your knowledge, sand had been added to the bottom container, or removed from the top container. Then if you calculated the time since the last up-ending by measuring the sand in both containers, it would be longer than the actual time.

Teaching about Evolution addresses assumption 2:

For example, it requires that the rate of radioactive decay is constant over time and is not influenced by such factors as temperature and pressure?conclusions supported by extensive research in physics.

It is true that in today?s world, radioactive decay rates seem constant, and are unaffected by heat or pressure. However, we have tested decay rates for only about 100 years, so we can?t be sure that they were constant over the alleged billions of years. Nuclear physicist Dr Russell Humphreys suggests that decay rates were faster during creation week, and have remained constant since then. There is some basis for this, for example radiohalo analysis, but it is still tentative.

Teaching about Evolution also addresses assumption 3:

It also assumes that the rocks being analyzed have not been altered over time by migration of atoms in or out of the rocks, which requires detailed information from both the geologic and chemical sciences.

This is a huge assumption. Potassium and uranium, both common parent elements, are easily dissolved in water, so could be leached out of rocks. Argon, produced by decay from potassium, is a gas, so moves quite readily.

Anomalies
There are many examples where the dating methods give ?dates? that are wrong for rocks of known historical age. One example is rock from a dacite lava dome at Mount St Helens volcano. Although we know the rock was formed in 1986, the rock was ?dated? by the potassium-argon (K-Ar) method as 0.35 ? 0.05 million years old.9 Another example is K-Ar ?dating? of five andesite lava flows from Mt Ngauruhoe in New Zealand. The ?dates? ranged from < 0.27 to 3.5 million years?but one lava flow occurred in 1949, three in 1954, and one in 1975!

What happened was that excess radiogenic argon (40Ar*) from the magma (molten rock) was retained in the rock when it solidified. The secular scientific literature also lists many examples of excess 40Ar* causing ?dates? of millions of years in rocks of known historical age. This excess appears to have come from the upper mantle, below the earth?s crust. This is consistent with a young world?the argon has had too little time to escape.10

If excess 40Ar* can cause exaggerated dates for rocks of known age, then why should we trust the method for rocks of unknown age?

Another problem is the conflicting dates between different methods. If two methods disagree, then at least one of them must be wrong. For example, in Australia, some wood was buried by a basalt lava flow, as can be seen from the charring. The wood was ?dated? by radiocarbon (14C) analysis at about 45,000 years old, but the basalt was ?dated? by the K-Ar method at c. 45 million years old!11 Other fossil wood from Upper Permian rock layers has been found with 14C still present. Detectable 14C would have all disintegrated if the wood were really older than 50,000 years, let alone the 250 million years that evolutionists assign to these Upper Permian rock layers.12

According to the Bible?s chronology, great age cannot be the true cause of the observed isotope ratios. Anomalies like the above are good supporting evidence, but we are not yet sure of the true cause in all cases. A group of creationist Ph.D. geologists and physicists from Answers in Genesis, the Creation Research Society, and the Institute for Creation Research are currently working on this topic. Their aim is to find out the precise geochemical and/or geophysical causes of the observed isotope ratios.13 One promising lead is questioning Assumption 1?the initial conditions are not what the evolutionists think, but are affected, for example, by the chemistry of the rock that melted to form the magma.

Evidence for a young world
Actually, 90 percent of the methods that have been used to estimate the age of the earth point to an age far less than the billions of years asserted by evolutionists. A few of them:

Red blood cells and hemoglobin have been found in some (unfossilized!) dinosaur bone. But these could not last more than a few thousand years?certainly not the 65 million years from when evolutionists think the last dinosaur lived.14

The earth?s magnetic field has been decaying so fast that it couldn?t be more than about 10,000 years old. Rapid reversals during the flood year and fluctuations shortly after just caused the field energy to drop even faster.15

Helium is pouring into the atmosphere from radioactive decay, but not much is escaping. But the total amount in the atmosphere is only 1/2000th of that expected if the atmosphere were really billions of years old. This helium originally escaped from rocks. This happens quite fast, yet so much helium is still in some rocks that it couldn?t have had time to escape?certainly not billions of years.16

A supernova is an explosion of a massive star?the explosion is so bright that it briefly outshines the rest of the galaxy. The supernova remnants (SNRs) should keep expanding for hundreds of thousands of years, according to the physical equations. Yet there are no very old, widely expanded (Stage 3) SNRs, and few moderately old (Stage 2) ones in our galaxy, the Milky Way, or in its satellite galaxies, the Magellanic clouds. This is just what we would expect if these galaxies had not existed long enough for wide expansion.17

The moon is slowly receding from earth at about 1-1/2 inches (4cm) per year, and the rate would have been greater in the past. But even if the moon had started receding from being in contact with the earth, it would have taken only 1.37 billion years to reach its present distance. This gives a maximum possible age of the moon?not the actual age. This is far too young for evolution (and much younger than the radiometric ?dates? assigned to moon rocks).18

Salt is pouring into the sea much faster than it is escaping. The sea is not nearly salty enough for this to have been happening for billions of years. Even granting generous assumptions to evolutionists, the seas could not be more than 62 million years old?far younger than the billions of years believed by evolutionists. Again, this indicates a maximum age, not the actual age.19

A number of other processes inconsistent with billions of years are given in the AiG pamphlet Evidence for a Young World, by Dr Russell Humphreys.

Creationists admit that they can?t prove the age of the earth using a particular scientific method. They realize that all science is tentative because we do not have all the data, especially when dealing with the past. This is true of both creationist and evolutionist scientific arguments?evolutionists have had to abandon many ?proofs? for evolution as well. For example, the atheistic evolutionist W.B. Provine admits: ?Most of what I learned of the field in graduate (1964?68) school is either wrong or significantly changed.?20 Creationists understand the limitations of these dating methods better than evolutionists who claim that they can use certain present processes to ?prove? that the earth is billions of years old. In reality, all age-dating methods, including those which point to a young earth, rely on unprovable assumptions.

Creationists ultimately date the earth using the chronology of the Bible. This is because they believe that this is an accurate eyewitness account of world history, which can be shown to be consistent with much data.

Addendum: John Woodmorappe has just published a detailed study demonstrating the fallacy of radiometric ?dating,? including the ?high-tech? isochron method: The Mythology of Modern Dating Methods (El Cajon, CA: Institute for Creation Research, 1999).

References and notes
S.A. Austin, Mount St. Helens and Catastrophism, Proceedings of the First International Conference on Creationism, 1:3?9, ed. R.E. Walsh, R.S. Crowell, Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, PA, USA, 1986; for a simplified article, see K. Ham, I got excited at Mount St Helens! Creation 15(3):14?19, June?August 1993.
Don Batten, Sandy stripes, Creation 19(1):39?40, December 1996?February 1997.
P. Julien, Y. Lan, and G. Berthault, Experiments on Stratification of Heterogeneous Sand Mixtures, TJ 8(1):37?50, 1994.
G. Berthault, Experiments on Lamination of Sediments, TJ 3:25?29, 1988.
H.A. Makse, S. Havlin, P.R. King, and H.E. Stanley, Spontaneous Stratification in Granular Mixtures, Nature 386(6623):379?382, 27 March 1997. See also A. Snelling, Nature Finally Catches Up, TJ 11(2):125?6, 1997.
Carl Wieland, Stones and Bones, (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, Inc., 1994).
R.A. Kerr, Pathfinder Tells a Geologic Tale with One Starring Role, Science 279(5348):175, 9 January 1998.
O. Morton, Flatlands, New Scientist 159(2143):36?39, 18 July 1998.
S.A. Austin, Excess Argon within Mineral Concentrates from the New Dacite Lava Dome at Mount St. Helens Volcano, TJ 10(3):335?343, 1986.
A.A. Snelling, The Cause of Anomalous Potassium-Argon ?Ages? for Recent Andesite Flows at Mt. Ngauruhoe, New Zealand, and the Implications for Potassium-Argon ?Dating,? Proceedings of the Fourth International Conference on Creationism, Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, ed. E. Walsh, 1998, p. 503?525. This document lists many examples. For example, six were reported by D. Krummenacher, Isotopic Composition of Argon in Modern Surface Rocks, Earth and Planetary Science Letters 8:109?117, 1970; five were reported by G.B. Dalrymple, 40Ar/36Ar Analysis of Historic Lava Flows, Earth and Planetary Science Letters 6:47?55, 1969. Also, a large excess was reported in D.E. Fisher, Excess Rare Gases in a Subaerial Basalt from Nigeria, Nature 232:60?61, 1970.
A.A. Snelling, Radiometric dating in conflict, Creation 20(1):24?27, December 1997?February 1998.
A.A. Snelling, Stumping old-age dogma, Creation 20(4):48?50, September?November 1998.
Acts and Facts, Institute for Creation Research, 27(7), July 1998.
C. Wieland, Sensational dinosaur blood report! Creation 19(4):42?43, September?November 1997; based on research by M. Schweitzer and T. Staedter, The Real Jurassic Park, Earth, June 1997, p. 55?57.
D.R. Humphreys, Reversals of the Earth?s Magnetic Field During the Genesis Flood, Proceedings of the First International Conference on Creationism, vol. 2 (Pittsburgh, PA: Creation Science Fellowship, 1986), p. 113?126; J.D. Sarfati, The earth?s magnetic field: evidence that the earth is young, Creation 20(2):15?19, March?May 1998.
L. Vardiman, The Age of the Earth?s Atmosphere: A Study of the Helium Flux through the Atmosphere (El Cajon, CA: Institute for Creation Research, 1990); J.D. Sarfati, Blowing old-earth belief away: helium gives evidence that the earth is young, Creation 20(3):19?21, June?August 1998.
K. Davies, Distribution of Supernova Remnants in the Galaxy, Proceedings of the Third International Conference on Creationism, ed. R.E. Walsh, 1994, p. 175?184; J.D. Sarfati, Exploding stars point to a young universe, Creation 19(3):46?49, June?August 1998.
D. DeYoung, The Earth-Moon System, Proceedings of the Second International Conference on Creationism, vol. 2, ed. R.E. Walsh and C.L Brooks, 1990, 79?84; J.D. Sarfati, The moon: the light that rules the night, Creation 20(4):36?39, September?November 1998.
S.A. Austin and D.R. Humphreys, The Sea?s Missing Salt: A Dilemma for Evolutionists, Proceedings of the Second International Conference on Creationism, Vol. 2, 1990, 17?33; J.D. Sarfati, Salty seas: evidence for a young earth, Creation 21(1):16?17, December 1998?February 1999.
Teaching about Evolution and the Nature of Science, A Review by Dr Will B. Provine, cited on 18 February 1999. Available online from <fp.bio.utk.edu/darwin/NAS_guidebook/provine_1.html>.

I think the following statement (contained below) is a very crucial one to this entire debate: “The earth is only seen as “looking old” because we all take unconscious belief systems to the evidence”

The earth: how old does it look?
Even many of those who believe that the earth is ?young? think that it looks ?old?. But does it?
by Carl Wieland

The young man, a carpenter in his early twenties who had recently taken up downstairs lodging in my home, looked at me warily. ?All right then,? he said, ?how old do you guys think the earth is??

I knew he had had no Christian upbringing, knew nothing of the Bible, and would have been thoroughly ?evolutionized? at school. I had just been telling him about my work for a creation ministry, and he was most curious. But when he asked his question about the earth?s age, my inner response was, ?Uh oh, here it comes.?

Knowing how people in our culture are indoctrinated with belief in an earth millions of years old, I braced myself for the usual incredulous rejection when I said what I truly believed, ?It?s only a few thousand years old?less than 10,000, probably around 6,000 years or so.?

To my surprise, he said, ?That?s good.?

?Why?? I blurted out.

?Because,? he replied, ?I?ve always thought it looked young.?

Pondering this incident at a later date, I realized that my own reaction (it blew my mind somewhat) showed that, however strong my conviction in the biblical record, and however strong some recent-creation evidences might be, I had become unconsciously influenced by the notion that the earth, though young, looks old.

In fact, there are many firmly Bible-believing Christians who think that way. Even in the ?kosher? creationist literature there are sometimes attempts to explain why the earth has an ?appearance of age??i.e., looks old.

But in fact it?s easy to demonstrate that this cannot be true. Even if the earth really were millions or billions of years old, one could not say that it ?looked old??that one glance at rock layers and canyons just ?shouted?, ?Old Earth!?. To justify that statement, I don?t even have to get into sophisticated references to modern philosophers of science, who agree that no facts ?speak for themselves? anyway. All we need do is remember that some of the greatest minds that ever lived, the fathers of modern science?Newton, for example?looked at the same earth that we look at today, and did not ?see? millions of years. Just as the young carpenter, a truly independent thinker who had resisted the indoctrination of our age, did not ?see? the millions of years either.

The earth is only seen as ?looking old? because we all take unconscious belief systems to the evidence. In other words, it could be said that the earth looks neither old nor young?it all depends on the ?belief glasses? through which one is viewing (interpreting) the evidence. Or to put it another way, it is just as valid for me to say, looking at the world through the ?lens? of the Bible (rather than the humanistic, evolutionized lens of our culture), that it ?looks young? (i.e. thousands, not billions of years old).

Summarizing just some of the evidence that is consistent with a young age for the world:

  1. The continents are eroding too quickly.
    If the continents were billions of years old, they would have eroded by wind and water many times over. Mountain uplift and other ?recycling? processes are nowhere near capable of compensating for this.1

  2. There is not enough helium in the atmosphere.
    Helium, a light gas, is formed during radioactive alpha decay in rock minerals. It rapidly escapes and enters the atmosphere much faster than it can escape Earth?s gravity.2 Even if God had created the world with no helium to begin with, the small amount in the atmosphere would have taken at most around two million years to accumulate. This is far less than the assumed 3,000-million-year age of the atmosphere.

  3. Many fossils indicate that they must have formed quickly, and could not have taken long time-spans.
    a) Common fossils.

There are billions of fossil fish in rock layers around the world which are incredibly well-preserved. They frequently show intact fins and often scales, indicating that they were buried rapidly and the rock hardened quickly. In the real world, dead fish are scavenged within 24 hours. Even in some idealized cold, sterile, predator-free and oxygen-free water, they will become soggy and fall apart within weeks.3 A fish buried quickly in sediment that does not harden within a few weeks at the most will still be subject to decay by oxygen and bacteria, such that the delicate features like fins, scales, etc. would not preserve their form. Rapid burial in the many underwater landslides (turbidity currents) and other sedimentary processes accompanying Noah?s Flood would explain not only their excellent preservation, but their existence in huge deposits, often covering thousands of square kilometres.

b) Special examples.

We?ve often featured in this magazine instances which are particularly spectacular, like the mother ichthyosaur apparently ?freeze-framed? in the process of giving birth. Then there are the fossil fish which are found either in the process of swallowing other fish or with undigested fish intact in their stomachs (see Creation magazine for photos?we had only one-off permission for some of them).

  1. Many processes, which we have been told take millions of years, do not need such time-spans at all.
    a) Coal formation.

Argonne National Laboratories have shown that heating wood (lignin, its major component), water and acidic clay at 150?C (rather cool geologically) for 4 to 36 weeks, in a sealed quartz tube with no added pressure, forms high-grade black coal.4

b) Stalactites and stalagmites.

Many examples in Creation magazine have shown that cave decorations form quickly, given the right conditions. The photo (in Creation magazine) is of a mining tunnel in Mt Isa, Queensland, Australia. The tunnel was only 50 years old when the photo was taken.

c) Opals.

Despite the common teaching that it takes millions of years to form opal, Australian researcher Len Cram has long been growing opal in his backyard laboratory. His opal (photo right, by Dr Cram) is indistinguishable, under the electron microscope, from that mined in the field. He was awarded an honorary doctorate (by a secular university) for this research. All he does is mix together the right common chemicals ? no heat, no pressure, and definitely no millions of years.

d) Rock and fossil formation.

Scientists have long known that petrifaction can happen quickly. The ?petrified? bowler hat (below right, by Renton Maclachlan) is on display in ?The Buried Village?, an open air museum dedicated to the Mt Tarawera eruption, in New Zealand. The photo (below left) shows a roll of no. 8 fencing wire which, in only 20 years, became encased in solid sandstone, containing hundreds of fossil shells. Petrified wood can also form quickly under the right conditions?one process has even been patented.5

The famous multiple levels of ?fossil forests? in America?s Yellowstone National Park (photo right, by Clyde Webster) have now been shown to have formed in one volcanic event.6 Successive mudflows transported upright trees (minus most of their roots and branches) whose tree-ring signatures confirm that they grew at the one time.

  1. The oceans are nowhere near salty enough.
    Each year, the world?s rivers and underground streams add millions of tonnes of salt to the sea, and only a fraction of this goes back onto the land. Using the most favourable possible assumptions for long-agers, the absolute maximum age of the oceans is only a tiny fraction of their assumed billions-of-years age.7

Despite some inevitable unsolved problems in such a complex issue (see below for why radiometric dating is not infallible), it is thus not hard to establish:

i) The reasonableness of believing what the Creator of the world says in His Word, the Bible, about the world being thousands, not millions or billions, of years old.

ii) The fact that the earth neither ?looks old? nor ?looks young? as such?it all depends on the ?glasses? through which the evidence is interpreted. We all need to be aware of how much we have been conditioned by our culture to ?see? geological things as ?looking old?.

The earth is old!
But let us stretch our minds still further. It concerns the way we use words such as ?old? or ?young? for the earth?s age. I actually believe that the earth is old?very old. It is thousands of years old?as many as six thousand, in fact. Does that angle surprise you? My point is to make us aware of how we have allowed our culture to condition us into thinking that a thousand years is a very short time, and that ?old? always means millions or billions of years.

That is why tourists, coming across the ?petrified waterwheel? in Western Australia gawk in amazement. ?It only took sixty years to cover this thing in solid rock?? Sixty years, with water carrying dissolved limestone dripping night and day onto an object, is actually an incredibly long time. It is our culture, soaked in the myth of ?deep time?, that has indoctrinated us into the belief that a million years (an unimaginable time period, in reality) is only like ?yesterday?.

We need to recapture our thoughts from this enslavement to secular philosophy (see Colossians 2:8, 2 Corinthians 10:4?5). The Bible concurs with this way of looking at things. In 1 Chronicles 4:22, it refers to human records as ?ancient?. But it is clear from the Bible?s genealogies that at the time of its writing, ?ancient? meant no more than some 4,000 years?certainly not billions. This realization puts things in perspective when Scripture also talks of ?ancient mountains? (Deuteronomy 33:15), an ?ancient? river (Judges 5:21) and ?ancient times? (Isaiah 46:10). Compared to a person?s lifetime, these things are indeed ancient?thousands of years old. The ?millions of years? idea is nowhere found in the Bible.

What?s more, accepting a billions-of-years time-span for creation (very common among evangelical leaders) undermines the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Creator of the world (see Q&A: Jesus Christ for evidence) ? see below. Not only that, but it turns the whole logic of the Gospel upside down, by putting the effects of the Curse before the Fall. Death, thorns, cancer, suffering and bloodshed millions of years before sin must be accepted if the fossils were laid down before people were created. Such thinking twists the Bible into foolish self-contradiction, because it would put death, the ?last enemy? (1 Corinthians 15:26) into a creation which God calls ?very good? (Genesis 1:31).

So next time you hear someone say that the earth ?looks old?, you can respectfully disagree?it can look almost ?any age you want?, depending on how you interpret the factual evidence through the belief system in your mind.

And if someone says the earth is old?you can agree with them, so long as you define what you mean by old?it?s really, really old, in fact it?s ancient. Some six entire millennia have elapsed since God made the world (once perfect, now corrupted due to sin and the Curse) in six real days.

Recommended Resources

The Young Earth (Softcover)
Explains in easy-to-understand terms how true science supports a young age for the Earth.
The Mythology of Modern Dating Methods (Softcover)

References
Walker, T., Eroding ages, Creation 22(2):18?21, 2000. Return to text.

Sarfati, J., Blowing old-earth belief away, Creation 20(3):19?21, 1998. Return to text.

Zangerl, R. and Richardson, E.S., The paleoecological history of two Pennsylvanian black shales, Fieldiana: Geology Memoirs 4, 1963 cited in Garner, P., Green River blues, Creation 19(3):18?19, 1997. Return to text.

Organic Geochemistry 6:463?471, 1984. Return to text.

Snelling, A., Instant petrified wood, Creation 17(4):38?40, 1995. Return to text.

Sarfati, J., The Yellowstone petrified forests, Creation 21(2):18?21, 1999. Return to text.

Sarfati, J., Salty seas: evidence the earth is young, Creation 21(1):16?17, 1998. Return to text.

“We all take unconscious belief systems to the evidence.”

I really believe this is true for both sides of this argument. Those of you on the other side who are truly objective should agree.

Evidence exists for both sides. How you view the evidence hinges on which pair of glasses you’re wearing. We all wear some type of glasses in this scenario whether you like that idea or not.

We are dealing with things that happened in the past and for the most part cannot be subjected to experimentation in the present. Despite what has been trumpeted to the contrary on this thread that presents a major hurdle when dealing with this evidence regardless which side of the debate you are on.

For those of you interested in more evidence for a young earth, click on the following link:

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
Since the topic at hand seems to have shifted to the “Young Earth” theory, I thought I’d post some evidence for it.

[/quote]

Your pulling all of that from the website that has stated it’s mission is to use a literal translation of the Bible to explain natural phenomena and not objective scientific methods. Rather than discovering the natural world, they are beginning with the premise that there is an ID, or more to the point of the website, that the God of the Bible is the creator. The Native Americans I posted about earlier may have something to say about that.

Secondly much of what you posted is either inaccurate or refuted with better time tested evidence. I knew that from reading the first one on galaxies and speed. It’s inaccurate.

You can read more here.

I can go to a “white pride” site and post evidence that the Holocaust is a sham. But the evidence of the millions who died cannot be ignored.

Also, if you want to start a new topic perhaps start a new thread.

[quote]Floortom wrote:
orion wrote:
Floortom wrote:
I’m going to dissent a bit here. Take a look at that list of scientists posted by Throttle and you can see that almost all of them are creationists who believe that the world is approximately 6,000 years old.

How else to describe that belief other than stupidity?? At best maybe it’s some sort of dissociative disorder. To actually believe such an absurd idea in the face of mountains and mountains of evidence…well, you guys call it what you want but I think you’re being a bit too kind in taking stupidity out of the equation.

Look at personality disorders, especially those involving some kind of “ascetic” narcissism. If you manage to put the things you would believe anyway into the frame of religion, suddenly it is accepted and no longer seriously questioned by society. Convenient, isn?t it?

An allmighty father figure, ready to crush those who disobey him, a holy Mary pure, untouched, clean, completely asexual and not frightening, fear of homosexuality, the desperate need to persuade/persecute others…

You think stupidity is all that is going on? If you need to believe something, because everything else means triggering raw primal fear, you will believe it.

I dont think stupidity is ALL that is going on, but it is a factor to consider.

Of course, this is dependent on how one defiens stupidity. I am not using the term as one might use it to describe a a mentally handicapped individual or an individual with a sub 80 IQ.

I think it’s important to also realize that with many of these individuals, you obviously have a dissociative syndrome. They HAVE to accept and reject certain ideas–they have no other choice and it’s the only way they can cope. That is certainly why you can get a well-educated individual believing in a 6,000 year old earth. I also think stupidity is another reason–the inability or refusal to consider the mountains of evidence in direct opposition to one’s preconceptions.

[/quote]

If being stupid means believing in complete BS, we are all stupid. I don?t like the idea but I have come to accept that we are all completely gaga, to some degree, depending on the subject and on our daily mood.

?t?s not that I agree with ID, I think they are all wrong, but what does it matter if we are all bat-shit insane?

Okay, some of us try harder than others. But we are lucky. Shouldn?t that be enough?

Some of you complained about a lack of presentation of evidence for I.D. on this thread. Fair enough. Here is a book on I.D. and the human body.

The Human Body:
An Intelligent Design

by Alan L. Gillen, Frank J. Sherwin and Alan C. Knowles
Published by the Creation Research Society (CRS)

When we first examine the human body, complexity and diversity overwhelms the mind. Continuous study and patient research reveal repeating physiological patterns in the eleven body systems. This book describes these patterns and discusses their meaning. It will help the teacher or serious student of biology appreciate the Creator’s design principles and plan for human body. The various body systems are discussed, such as the circulatory system, in the context of these design themes. It teaches about the biological basis for blood clotting, the immune response, recent research on spilt-brain studies, the physiology of flight, the body’s adaptation to high altitudes and much more. The book is built around the basic universal patterns and themes in human biology that include:

the relationship of structure to function;
homeostasis, or steady state of metabolism;
the interdependence among body parts;
short-term physiological adaptation;
maintenance of boundaries; and
the triple scheme of order, organization, and integration.
Most popular books on the human body, as well as most anatomy and physiology texts, assume an evolutionary origin of man. This book is unusual in that it is built around the widely accepted physiological themes, but provides a distinct, creationist approach to the human body. It challenges the reader to evaluate whether the creation or evolution model makes more sense. the subject chapters presented within this book are:

Design Principles of the Human Body
Two Views of Origins and Perspectives on Human Body Plans
Human Cells and Development
Structure and Function: A Planned Relationship
Homeostasis: The Body in Balance
Multifaceted Systems in the Human Body
Clotting Cascades
“All or None” Systems in the Human Body
The Wonder of Adaptation
Understanding Man’s Uniqueness
Maintaining Boundaries
Order, Organization, and Integration
Patterns in Physiology
The Unseen Hand

What counts as evidence for design?

[quote]orion wrote:
Floortom wrote:
orion wrote:
Floortom wrote:
I’m going to dissent a bit here. Take a look at that list of scientists posted by Throttle and you can see that almost all of them are creationists who believe that the world is approximately 6,000 years old.

How else to describe that belief other than stupidity?? At best maybe it’s some sort of dissociative disorder. To actually believe such an absurd idea in the face of mountains and mountains of evidence…well, you guys call it what you want but I think you’re being a bit too kind in taking stupidity out of the equation.

Look at personality disorders, especially those involving some kind of “ascetic” narcissism. If you manage to put the things you would believe anyway into the frame of religion, suddenly it is accepted and no longer seriously questioned by society. Convenient, isn?t it?

An allmighty father figure, ready to crush those who disobey him, a holy Mary pure, untouched, clean, completely asexual and not frightening, fear of homosexuality, the desperate need to persuade/persecute others…

You think stupidity is all that is going on? If you need to believe something, because everything else means triggering raw primal fear, you will believe it.

I dont think stupidity is ALL that is going on, but it is a factor to consider.

Of course, this is dependent on how one defiens stupidity. I am not using the term as one might use it to describe a a mentally handicapped individual or an individual with a sub 80 IQ.

I think it’s important to also realize that with many of these individuals, you obviously have a dissociative syndrome. They HAVE to accept and reject certain ideas–they have no other choice and it’s the only way they can cope. That is certainly why you can get a well-educated individual believing in a 6,000 year old earth. I also think stupidity is another reason–the inability or refusal to consider the mountains of evidence in direct opposition to one’s preconceptions.

If being stupid means believing in complete BS, we are all stupid. I don?t like the idea but I have come to accept that we are all completely gaga, to some degree, depending on the subject and on our daily mood.

?t?s not that I agree with ID, I think they are all wrong, but what does it matter if we are all bat-shit insane?

Okay, some of us try harder than others. But we are lucky. Shouldn?t that be enough? [/quote]

???

Forgive me and with all due respect, are you having trouble translating your thoughts from German to English?

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
“We all take unconscious belief systems to the evidence.”

I really believe this is true for both sides of this argument. Those of you on the other side who are truly objective should agree.[/quote]

Either we have a working philosophy based on a questioning method to explain why we believe the things we do, or we allow the creation of our souls to fall to chance (yes I know, I’m paraphrasing Mentzer but it’s true). Know thyself, question your questions, re-evaluate all values.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
Evidence exists for both sides. How you view the evidence hinges on which pair of glasses you’re wearing. We all wear some type of glasses in this scenario whether you like that idea or not.[/quote]

2+2=4 no matter what eye ware you use.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
We are dealing with things that happened in the past and for the most part cannot be subjected to experimentation in the present. Despite what has been trumpeted to the contrary on this thread that presents a major hurdle when dealing with this evidence regardless which side of the debate you are on. [/quote]

It’s a hurdle that most biologist and archaeologist are able to get over. Other scientists as well, for example as was posted earlier on quarks and photons. They have to get over the hurdle of not being able to “see” these particles yet the evidence points to their existence.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
orion wrote:
Floortom wrote:
orion wrote:
Floortom wrote:
I’m going to dissent a bit here. Take a look at that list of scientists posted by Throttle and you can see that almost all of them are creationists who believe that the world is approximately 6,000 years old.

How else to describe that belief other than stupidity?? At best maybe it’s some sort of dissociative disorder. To actually believe such an absurd idea in the face of mountains and mountains of evidence…well, you guys call it what you want but I think you’re being a bit too kind in taking stupidity out of the equation.

Look at personality disorders, especially those involving some kind of “ascetic” narcissism. If you manage to put the things you would believe anyway into the frame of religion, suddenly it is accepted and no longer seriously questioned by society. Convenient, isn?t it?

An allmighty father figure, ready to crush those who disobey him, a holy Mary pure, untouched, clean, completely asexual and not frightening, fear of homosexuality, the desperate need to persuade/persecute others…

You think stupidity is all that is going on? If you need to believe something, because everything else means triggering raw primal fear, you will believe it.

I dont think stupidity is ALL that is going on, but it is a factor to consider.

Of course, this is dependent on how one defiens stupidity. I am not using the term as one might use it to describe a a mentally handicapped individual or an individual with a sub 80 IQ.

I think it’s important to also realize that with many of these individuals, you obviously have a dissociative syndrome. They HAVE to accept and reject certain ideas–they have no other choice and it’s the only way they can cope. That is certainly why you can get a well-educated individual believing in a 6,000 year old earth. I also think stupidity is another reason–the inability or refusal to consider the mountains of evidence in direct opposition to one’s preconceptions.

If being stupid means believing in complete BS, we are all stupid. I don?t like the idea but I have come to accept that we are all completely gaga, to some degree, depending on the subject and on our daily mood.

?t?s not that I agree with ID, I think they are all wrong, but what does it matter if we are all bat-shit insane?

Okay, some of us try harder than others. But we are lucky. Shouldn?t that be enough?

???

Forgive me and with all due respect, are you having trouble translating your thoughts from German to English?[/quote]

yes that is one part. The other part is you using that, so you do not have to understand…

:slight_smile:

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
Some of you complained about a lack of presentation of evidence for I.D. on this thread. Fair enough. Here is a book on I.D. and the human body.

The Human Body:
An Intelligent Design

[/quote]

Again, they are starting with a creator rather than seeing the evolution of the human. See also: mole eyes, ostrich wings.

[quote]IagoMB wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
Since the topic at hand seems to have shifted to the “Young Earth” theory, I thought I’d post some evidence for it.

Your pulling all of that from the website that has stated it’s mission is to use a literal translation of the Bible to explain natural phenomena and not objective scientific methods. Rather than discovering the natural world, they are beginning with the premise that there is an ID, or more to the point of the website, that the God of the Bible is the creator. The Native Americans I posted about earlier may have something to say about that.

Secondly much of what you posted is either inaccurate or refuted with better time tested evidence. I knew that from reading the first one on galaxies and speed. It’s inaccurate.

You can read more here.

I can go to a “white pride” site and post evidence that the Holocaust is a sham. But the evidence of the millions who died cannot be ignored.

Also, if you want to start a new topic perhaps start a new thread.[/quote]

Counterpoint: The Talk Origins website is also a group with an agenda. It explores the creation/evolution controversy from the other side. With all due respect, big deal.

More evidence on I.D. (hey, you guys whined about not gettin’ any (LOL) so don’t whine now that you’re gettin’ it in spades):

Common design points to common ancestry
Evolutionists say, ?Studies have found amazing similarities in DNA and biological systems?solid evidence that life on earth has a common ancestor.?

by Jonathan Sarfati, with Michael Matthews

First published in Refuting Evolution 2
Chapter 6

Common structures = common ancestry?
In most arguments for evolution, the debater assumes that common physical features, such as five fingers on apes and humans, point to a common ancestor in the distant past. Darwin mocked the idea (proposed by Richard Owen on the PBS dramatization of his encounter with Darwin) that common structures (homologies) were due to a common creator rather than a common ancestor.

But the common Designer explanation makes much more sense of the findings of modern geneticists, who have discovered just how different the genetic blueprint can be behind many apparent similarities in the anatomical structures that Darwin saw. Genes are inherited, not structures per se. So one would expect the similarities, if they were the result of evolutionary common ancestry, to be produced by a common genetic program (this may or may not be the case for common design). But in many cases, this is clearly not so. Consider the example of the five digits of both frogs and humans?the human embryo develops a ridge at the limb tip, then material between the digits dissolves; in frogs, the digits grow outward from buds (see diagram below). This argues strongly against the ?common ancestry? evolutionary explanation for the similarity.

Development of human and frog digits
Stylized diagram showing the difference in developmental patterns of frog and human digits.

Left: In humans, programmed cell death (apoptosis) divides the ridge into five regions that then develop into digits (fingers and toes). [From T.W. Sadler, editor, Langman?s Medical Embryology, 7th ed. (Baltimore, MD: Williams and Wilkins, 1995), p. 154?157.]

Right: In frogs, the digits grow outward from buds as cells divide. [From M.J. Tyler, Australian Frogs: A Natural History (Sydney, Australia: Reed New Holland, 1999), p. 80.]

The PBS program and other evolutionary propagandists claim that the DNA code is universal, and proof of a common ancestor. But this is false?there are exceptions, some known since the 1970s, not only in mitochondrial but also nuclear DNA sequencing. An example is Paramecium, where a few of the 64 codons code for different amino acids. More examples are being found constantly.1 The Discovery Institute has pointed out this clear factual error in the PBS program.2 Also, some organisms code for one or two extra amino acids beyond the main 20 types.3

The reaction by the PBS spokeswoman, Eugenie Scott, showed how the evolutionary establishment is more concerned with promoting evolution than scientific accuracy. Instead of conceding that the PBS show was wrong, she attacked the messengers, citing statements calling their (correct!) claim ?so bizarre as to be almost beyond belief.? Then she even implicitly conceded the truth of the claim by citing this explanation: ?Those exceptions, however, are known to have derived from organisms that had the standard code.?

To paraphrase: ?It was wrong to point out that there really are exceptions, even though it?s true; and it was right for PBS to imply something that wasn?t true because we can explain why it?s not always true.?

But assuming the truth of Darwinism as ?evidence? for their explanation is begging the question. There is no experimental evidence, since we lack the DNA code of these alleged ancestors. There is also the theoretical problem that if we change the code, then the wrong proteins would be made, and the organism would die?so once a code is settled on, we?re stuck with it. The Discovery Institute also demonstrated the illogic of Scott?s claim.4 Certainly most of the code is universal, but this is best explained by common design. Of all the millions of genetic codes possible, ours, or something almost like it, is optimal for protecting against errors.5 But the exceptions thwart evolutionary explanations.

DNA comparisons?subject to interpretation
Scientific American repeats the common argument that DNA comparisons help scientists to reconstruct the evolutionary development of organisms:

Macroevolution studies how taxonomic groups above the level of species change. Its evidence draws frequently from the fossil record and DNA comparisons to reconstruct how various organisms may be related. [SA 80]

DNA comparisons are just a subset of the homology argument, which makes just as much sense in a biblical framework. A common Designer is another interpretation that makes sense of the same data. An architect commonly uses the same building material for different buildings, and a car maker commonly uses the same parts in different cars. So we shouldn?t be surprised if a Designer for life used the same biochemistry and structures in many different creatures. Conversely, if all living organisms were totally different, this might look like there were many designers instead of one.

Since DNA codes for structures and biochemical molecules, we should expect the most similar creatures to have the most similar DNA. Apes and humans are both mammals, with similar shapes, so both have similar DNA. We should expect humans to have more DNA similarities with another mammal like a pig than with a reptile like a rattlesnake. And this is so. Humans are very different from yeast but they have some biochemistry in common, so we should expect human DNA to differ more from yeast DNA than from ape DNA.

So the general pattern of similarities need not be explained by common-ancestry (evolution). Furthermore, there are some puzzling anomalies for an evolutionary explanation?similarities between organisms that evolutionists don?t believe are closely related. For example, hemoglobin, the complex molecule that carries oxygen in blood and results in its red color, is found in vertebrates. But it is also found in some earthworms, starfish, crustaceans, mollusks, and even in some bacteria. An antigen receptor protein has the same unusual single chain structure in camels and nurse sharks, but this cannot be explained by a common ancestor of sharks and camels.6 And there are many other examples of similarities that cannot be due to evolution.

Debunking the ?molecular clock?
Scientific American repeats the common canard that DNA gives us a ?molecular clock? that tells us the history of DNA?s evolution from the simplest life form to mankind:

Nevertheless, evolutionists can cite further supportive evidence from molecular biology. All organisms share most of the same genes, but as evolution predicts, the structures of these genes and their products diverge among species, in keeping with their evolutionary relationships. Geneticists speak of the ?molecular clock? that records the passage of time. These molecular data also show how various organisms are transitional within evolution. [SA 83]

Actually, the molecular clock has many problems for the evolutionist. Not only are there the anomalies and common Designer arguments I mentioned above, but they actually support a creation of distinct types within ordered groups, not continuous evolution, as non-creationist microbiologist Dr Michael Denton pointed out in Evolution: A Theory in Crisis. For example, when comparing the amino acid sequence of cytochrome C of a bacterium (a prokaryote) with such widely diverse eukaryotes as yeast, wheat, silkmoth, pigeon, and horse, all of these have practically the same percentage difference with the bacterium (64 ?69%). There is no intermediate cytochrome between prokaryotes and eukaryotes, and no hint that the ?higher? organism such as a horse has diverged more than the ?lower? organism such as the yeast.

The same sort of pattern is observed when comparing cytochrome C of the invertebrate silkmoth with the vertebrates lamprey, carp, turtle, pigeon, and horse. All the vertebrates are equally divergent from the silkmoth (27?30%). Yet again, comparing globins of a lamprey (a ?primitive? cyclostome or jawless fish) with a carp, frog, chicken, kangaroo, and human, they are all about equidistant (73?81%). Cytochrome C?s compared between a carp and a bullfrog, turtle, chicken, rabbit, and horse yield a constant difference of 13?14%. There is no trace of any transitional series of cyclostome → fish → amphibian → reptile → mammal or bird.

Another problem for evolutionists is how the molecular clock could have ticked so evenly in any given protein in so many different organisms (despite some anomalies discussed earlier which present even more problems). For this to work, there must be a constant mutation rate per unit time over most types of organism. But observations show that there is a constant mutation rate per generation, so it should be much faster for organisms with a fast generation time, such as bacteria, and much slower for elephants. In insects, generation times range from weeks in flies to many years in cicadas, and yet there is no evidence that flies are more diverged than cicadas. So evidence is against the theory that the observed patterns are due to mutations accumulating over time as life evolved.

References and notes
National Institutes of Health <www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Taxonomy/wprintgc?mode=c>, 29 August 2002.
10 September 2001 press release, PBS Charged with ?False Claim? on ?Universal Genetic Code,? <A Critique of PBS's Evolution. php>.
Certain archaea and eubacteria code for 21st or 22nd amino acids, selenocysteine and pyrrolysine?see J.F. Atkins and R. Gesteland, The 22nd Amino Acid, Science 296(5572):1409?10, 24 May 2002; commentary on technical papers on p. 1459?62 and 1462?66.
20 September 2001, press release, Offscreen, ?Evolution? Spokesperson Tries to Tar Scientific Critics Who Are Ignored, </www.reviewevolution.com>.
J. Knight, Top Translator, New Scientist 158(2130):15, 18 April 1998. Natural selection cannot explain this code optimality, since there is no way to replace the first functional code with a ?better? one without destroying functionality.
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 95:11,804; cited in New Scientist 160(2154):23, 3 October 1998.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
IagoMB wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
Since the topic at hand seems to have shifted to the “Young Earth” theory, I thought I’d post some evidence for it.

Your pulling all of that from the website that has stated it’s mission is to use a literal translation of the Bible to explain natural phenomena and not objective scientific methods. Rather than discovering the natural world, they are beginning with the premise that there is an ID, or more to the point of the website, that the God of the Bible is the creator. The Native Americans I posted about earlier may have something to say about that.

Secondly much of what you posted is either inaccurate or refuted with better time tested evidence. I knew that from reading the first one on galaxies and speed. It’s inaccurate.

You can read more here.

I can go to a “white pride” site and post evidence that the Holocaust is a sham. But the evidence of the millions who died cannot be ignored.

Also, if you want to start a new topic perhaps start a new thread.

Counterpoint: The Talk Origins website is also a group with an agenda. It explores the creation/evolution controversy from the other side. With all due respect, big deal. [/quote]

Nope.

"Talk.origins is a Usenet newsgroup devoted to the discussion and debate of biological and physical origins. Most discussions in the newsgroup center on the creation/evolution controversy, but other topics of discussion include the origin of life, geology, biology, catastrophism, cosmology and theology.

The Talk.Origins Archive is a collection of articles and essays, most of which have appeared in talk.origins at one time or another. The primary reason for this archive’s existence is to provide mainstream scientific responses to the many frequently asked questions (FAQs) that appear in the talk.origins newsgroup and the frequently rebutted assertions of those advocating intelligent design or other creationist pseudosciences."

You don’t want mainstream scientific responses? How about Flying Spaghetti Monster then?

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
More evidence on I.D. (hey, you guys whined about not gettin’ any (LOL) so don’t whine now that you’re gettin’ it in spades):

[/quote]

As I’ve posted earlier, no we’re not.

[quote]IagoMB wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
“We all take unconscious belief systems to the evidence.”

I really believe this is true for both sides of this argument. Those of you on the other side who are truly objective should agree.

Either we have a working philosophy based on a questioning method to explain why we believe the things we do, or we allow the creation of our souls to fall to chance (yes I know, I’m paraphrasing Mentzer but it’s true). Know thyself, question your questions, re-evaluate all values.
[/quote]
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh yeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Whatever you do, DON’T QUOTE MENTZER! LOL

(Interesting and ironic that you mention Mentzer here. He was also a “My way or the highway” guy. With him also, everybody who didn’t toe his line was wrong, wrong, wrong. He promoted the idea that his thoughts should be universally accepted or you are “stupid”. Woe be unto you if you disageed with him. I wouldn’t think that quoting one noted for his narrow-mindedness would be in the best interests of arguing your point here but… you did. Thanks.)

Yes, but we are not discussing mathematics - we’re discussing history.

[quote]
throttle132 wrote:
We are dealing with things that happened in the past and for the most part cannot be subjected to experimentation in the present. Despite what has been trumpeted to the contrary on this thread that presents a major hurdle when dealing with this evidence regardless which side of the debate you are on.

It’s a hurdle that most biologist and archaeologist are able to get over. Other scientists as well, for example as was posted earlier on quarks and photons. They have to get over the hurdle of not being able to “see” these particles yet the evidence points to their existence. [/quote]

I agree but I believe that they use that eeeeeeeeeeeevil concept of faith as their means “to get over” those hurdles.