Disgusted With Our Education System

Off Topic
61

nihil,

Wow. Charter schools work completely different here. We are open enrollment, and take kids on a first come/first admitted basis. Almost all of the charter schools in the state serve poor, minority students. We also get less money per student (meaning more money per student remains for regular public schools)from the state.

Regular school districts supplement the state money with local property taxes. We can’t do that, so we get grants and a lot of money from private foundations (especially for buildings).

What do you think the effect of allowing parents to choose their child’s school(public) would be?

62

Although I have no children of my own, how can I deny such a choice to parents, if they so choose? However, I see the public education system crumbling from within the minute that is offered.

Scarcity, a basic laissez faire concept, will immediate rear its ugly head. Parents will select to send their students to higher performing schools (which there will MUST be since all schools are now standardized; there must be below average and above average within a community.) This will lead to limited availability. I presume there are students waiting to get into your school.

Next, there will be a flight of competent educators from lower performing schools. If an educator is paid the same, why would she/he choose to remain at a school where the children are struggling with standardized tests? These test scores will be used against the educators as barometers of their ability to perform. Even if we judge educators based on improvement scores, I would much rather teach at the higher performing schools. The parental involvement is much higher on an aggregate level (this makes all the difference.)

Also, teachers will not want certain students in their room anymore. If a student is not likely to perform well, then they will drag your aggregate score down. Can you imagine the Summer lobbying for students by educators if this were to take place? What a nightmare for administrators.

Those students who most need to be in the rooms of highly competent educators (ESL, learning disabled, physical disabilities that effect intellectual performance)would be much less likely to get there.

I understand we already have such divisions based on home values. This continues divisions based on the “wrong side of the tracks” (we honestly have railroad tracks that divide the wealthy from the less than wealthy here.) So our current system certainly is not ideal; no one debates this question.

You can offer incentives to teach in poorer areas (I know downtown Atlanta does), but most educators are not in this profession for the money.

Here, I would say nearly half of the educators send their children to private schools. While it is a religious area, I have a feeling there is quite a bit more to do with those decisions than faith. If that is not self-condemnation, I don’t know what is.

Consequently, I see charter schools as just a baby step to inevitability of privatization. Again, perhaps that is the right step to take. However, I do not believe a national mandate sent to Seattle and Miami alike will be any lasting remedy.

Quite honestly, there is so much quick money to be made, whether performance occurs or not, I do not see how this tide will be stopped. If I strove for wealth (like my ex wanted me to do), I would set up tutoring centers for “failing” schools (which are paid by tax dollars, but are not held accountable.)

Yet it really isn’t that hard to raise standardized test scores (look at Kaplan and Princeton Review.) As an educator, do you want to become a Kaplan rep (which I have been, and am knocking, it just isn’t education to me)?

Again, it is a question of what, we as a nation, want from education. I have no quick or easy answers, and those that do want a quick return on investment.

I leave you with this: we once, as a young nation, had a privatized fire department. If you paid the fee, you got an insignia to place on your dwelling. If your house caught fire, and you didn’t have one, it would burn to the ground. The community came to understand it was not in their best interest to continue such a system.

Other buildings would catch fire and be damaged, or the local community would be damaged by having a gutted dwelling in their neighborhood. We saw, after Katrina, what happens in desperate areas when structure breaks down. I can only imagine the worst in every major metropolis if we officially abandon the poorer areas of our nation.

These are difficult questions that can’t be determined in sound bites. However, as I am sure you know very well, this is how change takes place in our country today.

63

Kids know who the winners and the “deferred winners are.” These silly little insincere actions only serve to make adults less credible in the eyes of kids. TV further instills the idea that adults are dolts. We are growing a generation that will discard everything the previous generations worked for because in their eyes we’re not worth listening to. Additionally, their future competition is fully aware that there are real winners and losers. This is going to be real interesting…

64

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
i suport publik skoolz.[/quote]

i grajuadid frum won.

65

Wanna fix the education system?

First - Outlaw teachers unions. They are nothing but PC liberral bullshit gone wild.

Secondly - Cut the number of lazy motherfuckers in administration by 2/3 and pay them half of what actual classroom teachers make.

Third - Make corporal punishment mandatory.

Fourth - abolish the Dept of Education.

66

[quote]nihil wrote:

You can offer incentives to teach in poorer areas (I know downtown Atlanta does), but most educators are not in this profession for the money.

[/quote]

It’s hard for me to comment on most of what you wrote, because our school systems seem very, very different. Private schools here (especially Catholic schools) are pretty much for fuck-up kids of rich or lazy parents who’d rather write a check than raise their kids. The dumbest people I know went to Catholic high schools.

The quote above, though, hits really close to home. I wouldn’t teach for $1 a year less than I make now (and I make way more than the average teacher in Texas). I think teachers have hurt themselves by pretending teaching is some type of sacred calling. If you act like you are doing some kind of noble, charitable deed people think the experience is reward enough. It’s not.

I don’t teach for the joy of lighting up that one “hard to reach” kid’s brain. I teach for the money. The reason I make sure my student’s learn is ONLY because I want my contract renewed so I can feed my kids. I tell my students this during the first week of school. I tell them that if they pass or fail, the only reason I care is that it will /help hurt my wallet. I tell them that if I go to McDonalds five years from now and see that they are wiping tables, I won’t care. I let them know that if they want to fuck around and ruin their lifes, I won’t shed a tear for them. However, if they want to learn, make something of themselves, and move out of the colonia, I’ll bust my ass day in and day out to make sure they do. Once they really believe that I don’t care but that I will kill myself (staying late, Saturday schools, home visits) to help them if they WANT to learn, the rest of the year is easy.

I gave this speech to a PTA meeting a couple of years ago. I don’t know if the translator got it 100% correct or not, but I had to stay an hour after the meeting shaking the torn up hands of parents who spent their days hunched over picking onions.

I’m pretty sleep-happy (up until 4am putting together presents from Santa), so I’m gonna try make my point. I think teaching is not something inherently noble. I feel no shame when I take my student’s results to the school board and say, “I want a raise”. Pretending that teaching is some calling from god hurts everyone involved.

I just remembered that you said you imagine we turn down students. WRONG! We hustle our asses off to get kids. It’s first applied/first enrolled but they have to write an essay explaining why they want to attend. The students and their parents have to sign a contract saying they will attend school from 7:30 to 5:00 (with Saturday tutoring from 9-1 if needed), their parents have to check a homework log and sign off on it every night, the students have to agree to our discipline system. We offer anyone who wants it a great education. It’s just a shame how few want it (although we are opening two new campuses next year–thanks to Bill and Melinda Gates).

67

HS science/math teacher here.

It’s all about the money. Teacher pay and working conditions are so miserable! Try teaching in some hellhole for $30,000. Know that after 20 years and a Masters Degree, you’ll make less than a newly-minted Computer Engineer.

I am a teacher. If my wife didn’t work, I’d have to live in a hovel. I have to wonder where to get the money to fix my car. I hope my kids get scholarships, or they better get big loans.

I realize that most of the rest of the world has it tough too. But why does our society pay doctors tons of cash to care for their children’s bodies, but a pittance to care for their minds?

If this continues, we are doomed. We will have a country of barely literate individuals voting for brain-dead politicians. Guess what follows next. (Hey, maybe this is a conspiracy! Where’s Just the Facts? :slight_smile:

68

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wanna fix the education system?

First - Outlaw teachers unions. They are nothing but PC liberral bullshit gone wild.

Secondly - Cut the number of lazy motherfuckers in administration by 2/3 and pay them half of what actual classroom teachers make.

Third - Make corporal punishment mandatory.

Fourth - abolish the Dept of Education. [/quote]

Most of the growth in expenditures in the last 10 or so years has been in the number of administrators, all of whom make way more than a teacher (except perhaps us old goats). I don’t remember where I saw this stat, but RJ makes an excellent point.

Teacher unions will never go away – they are a linchpin support group for Dems.

Considering how how federal government runs things (like FEMA), I hardily endorse #4.

69

OK, I’m compelled to rant.

Last year was my first year of teaching in an urban high school in Denver. I got out of there after being completely and utterly miserable for the entire year, for a dozen reasons.

Here’s what I’ve learned from the experience thus far:

1.) I know very few teachers that use the weeks / months off to relax or vacation. A vast majority either a.) work another job, or b.) pursue graduate studies, as they only way they’ll gain significant increases in salary is to get graduate credits or a Master’s/PhD degree. Case in point; if I had returned to my former school for my second year, I would have earned roughly $150 more than I had earned in my first year. That’s what, about $10-15 after taxes per month. That’s going to make a HUGE dent in my apartment rent.

2.) Many students immersed in urban culture firmly believe: I deserve an A (success) for doing nothing (being an asshole). Some more enlightened students believe they deserve a C (passing grade) instead of an F (failing grade) for doing nothing (being an asshole).

3.) Parents of these students fully support and nurture this belief.

4.) Students don’t want to be educated; they want to be entertained. The idea that school should be a place of entertainment, not of education, is a common mindset.

5.) “I’m bored” is as common a phrase as white on rice. When asked to pay attention, it’s “too hard.” to do so.

6.) Students spell bored ‘B-O-R-D’.

7.) Students never throw away their trash. In their enlightened opinion, it’s the custodian’s job to do so.

8.) I’m no English teacher, but it is my opinion that many of these students read and write at roughly a 6th grade level (give or take a grade). It got to a point where I wouldn’t assign a written assignment, as if I had to read any more of their crap, I would lose all remaining sanity.

9.) Chris Rock’s comedy, based on black stereotypes, are not stereotypes. Each and every one is true.

10.) All arts classes (electives) are treated as dumping grounds.

11.) To truly survive in this environment, a teacher must be fully empowered by the administration to be in charge of his or her classroom. Without the ability to get the shitheads out of your classroom, you’re guaranteed for misery.

12.) One fight is guaranteed to break out once a week. Usually in a hallway, occasionally in a classroom.

13.) I sincerely wish that the one starting the fight was me. Many of these students honestly deserve to get their asses kicked.

14.) One fight is guaranteed to break out in the audience of at least one football game per year.

15.) One drive-by shooting (bullets shot in the air) is guaranteed to occur once every 1-2 years.

Maybe I should have gone to med school after all.

70

[quote]Actarus wrote:
OK, I’m compelled to rant.

Last year was my first year of teaching in an urban high school in Denver. I got out of there after being completely and utterly miserable for the entire year, for a dozen reasons.

Here’s what I’ve learned from the experience thus far:

1.) I know very few teachers that use the weeks / months off to relax or vacation. A vast majority either a.) work another job, or b.) pursue graduate studies, as they only way they’ll gain significant increases in salary is to get graduate credits or a Master’s/PhD degree. Case in point; if I had returned to my former school for my second year, I would have earned roughly $150 more than I had earned in my first year. That’s what, about $10-15 after taxes per month. That’s going to make a HUGE dent in my apartment rent.

2.) Many students immersed in urban culture firmly believe: I deserve an A (success) for doing nothing (being an asshole). Some more enlightened students believe they deserve a C (passing grade) instead of an F (failing grade) for doing nothing (being an asshole).

3.) Parents of these students fully support and nurture this belief.

4.) Students don’t want to be educated; they want to be entertained. The idea that school should be a place of entertainment, not of education, is a common mindset.

5.) “I’m bored” is as common a phrase as white on rice. When asked to pay attention, it’s “too hard.” to do so.

6.) Students spell bored ‘B-O-R-D’.

7.) Students never throw away their trash. In their enlightened opinion, it’s the custodian’s job to do so.

8.) I’m no English teacher, but it is my opinion that many of these students read and write at roughly a 6th grade level (give or take a grade). It got to a point where I wouldn’t assign a written assignment, as if I had to read any more of their crap, I would lose all remaining sanity.

9.) Chris Rock’s comedy, based on black stereotypes, are not stereotypes. Each and every one is true.

10.) All arts classes (electives) are treated as dumping grounds.

11.) To truly survive in this environment, a teacher must be fully empowered by the administration to be in charge of his or her classroom. Without the ability to get the shitheads out of your classroom, you’re guaranteed for misery.

12.) One fight is guaranteed to break out once a week. Usually in a hallway, occasionally in a classroom.

13.) I sincerely wish that the one starting the fight was me. Many of these students honestly deserve to get their asses kicked.

14.) One fight is guaranteed to break out in the audience of at least one football game per year.

15.) One drive-by shooting (bullets shot in the air) is guaranteed to occur once every 1-2 years.

Maybe I should have gone to med school after all.[/quote]

The first year teaching is probably one of the worst professional experiences anyone can have. You get the cretins, crack heads, and other assorted clowns.

If it is really that bad, you can head for teaching at a private school or at a military school. The pay is lower but the environment is many times better. If you have a spouse who makes the big paycheck (wife is a tenured college prof), you can teach where YOU want. If you love teaching, this is the way to go.

Otherwise, in all honesty, I’d bail. Life is tough enough – get in med school, law school, etc. Think of the stories you’ll be able to tell, about your year in hell :slight_smile:

71

I went to law school. It is three years. Many people say it is difficult. It is a grind. It is not that any one piece of information is that difficult to comprehend, it is just the VOLUME of information can be nearly overwhelming for those uninspired.

Doogie: I teach for fulfillment. As a licensed attorney in my state, I could be making a load more defending the scum of the earth. I do teach the little ones, however. Each week there are a handful of moments that let me know I am having a lasting affect on these children (for many, I am the only sober male they see on a day to day basis).

Getting rid of unions will cause the working conditions to worsen even further. I can tell you, quite honestly, where I teach, 95% of the educators would leave the profession if they were not protected by their union contract. I am sure many would say, “Good, fuck 'em,” yet these are educators I would send my own children to. Can you imagine the quality of those would replace them?

I can’t imagine teaching for the money alone. I made more money delivering pizza when I was 20. Teaching is a very noble profession. I have a very direct and close impact with the children I teach. The only reason I know this is from parental contact from previous students. Most of the educators I know feel it is a calling. Those who do not usually leave in five years. Much of that has to do with being thrown into hell holes as Actarus was. If I was him, I would get out now as well. There are many close friends I know who grind it out for three years in places like Actarus works, and then find a better place. However, I would not work for a system such as his/hers.

I think we all agree federal involvement in education is a waste of time. As a public institution, it would be irresponsible to rely on private donations to solve local education problems. It wouldn’t take long for the private institution to create parameters to keep the money. Then they control the school. This is why so many churches do not want faith-based funding from the federal government. Sure, it is great to get the cash in the beginning. But then, slowly, strings are attached. Soon, control of the organization is lost to those with the cash. This is the same as privatization.

72

[quote]nihil wrote:
I went to law school. It is three years. Many people say it is difficult. It is a grind. It is not that any one piece of information is that difficult to comprehend, it is just the VOLUME of information can be nearly overwhelming for those uninspired.

Doogie: I teach for fulfillment. As a licensed attorney in my state, I could be making a load more defending the scum of the earth. I do teach the little ones, however. Each week there are a handful of moments that let me know I am having a lasting affect on these children (for many, I am the only sober male they see on a day to day basis).
[/quote]

I got halfway through law school and then knocked up my wife. I started teaching ONLY to feed my family. My dad taught and my mom is a secretary for the school, so there was no way I was ever going to teach. I fell into a great spot at a charter school that is willing to pay for results (even though I’m not certified). Teaching has rewards that I can’t even explain to my wife. However, the money isn’t worth it to me (in relation to the hours I put in). I’m now completing nursing school online. I’ll be an RN next year, and I’ll have more time to spend with my kids. My wife is an RN, works less than me and makes twice as much.

We don’t really have active unions here. I don’t know anyone who belongs to one. I do know that the best teachers I’ve met far and away are Teach For America kids. They are amazing, and I’ve learned so much from them.

Really? That is completely insane. Charter schools here pay well as long as you produce. They can afford to because they don’t have the administration overhead (or the insane sports budgets).

The belief that it is noble or “a calling” is what helps keep the pay so low.

[quote]
I have a very direct and close impact with the children I teach. [/quote]

Why shouldn’t that be rewarded with cash? You know it’s not easy. Honestly, how many of the teachers around you have that same impact?

[quote]
The only reason I know this is from parental contact from previous students.[/quote]

I’m required to do home visits for 30 students a year. I know that feeling you get when parents thank you for helping Juan or Maria care about their future. I know I’ll never get that feeling professionally again (hopefully I can feel it with my own kids).

When you look at the teachers around you, do you think they all have the same impact on their students that you have?

Are the ones who leave “bad” teachers or are do they just value their time more? Would they have stuck around for my money? You said you don’t have kids, but I promise you when you have your own you will value your time differently than you do now.

[quote]
Much of that has to do with being thrown into hell holes as Actarus was. If I was him, I would get out now as well. There are many close friends I know who grind it out for three years in places like Actarus works, and then find a better place. However, I would not work for a system such as his/hers.[/quote]

Neither would I. What would you do to fix such a system?

[quote]
I think we all agree federal involvement in education is a waste of time. [/quote]

I’m not completely sure of this. Federal involvement desegregated the schools. Unless federal funds are hung over their heads, what motivation do local school districts have to reform?

[quote]
As a public institution, it would be irresponsible to rely on private donations to solve local education problems. It wouldn’t take long for the private institution to create parameters to keep the money. Then they control the school. [/quote]

You can’t rely on it, but their is no harm in taking full advantage of it. For the most part, though, private money is a reward for a job well done. Most foundations give it to you after you’ve proved yourself. I don’t know of many that give it with strings attached.

[quote]
This is why so many churches do not want faith-based funding from the federal government. [/quote]

Not here. Around here faith-based schools are the crappiest education you could get. They don’t want to have to perform, and that is why they don’t take federal funds around here.

Strings like educating ALL of your students, not just the rich, white kids? Before Bush’s reforms here in Texas, well-off white kids were the only ones that mattered because everything was reported in one big lump. School districts could say 90% passed!!! Forget the 80% of Blacks and Hispanics who failed along with 99% of the special-ed kids who made no progress. Now we are responsible for the education of every sub-group imaginable. We can’t just write off anyone. Those types of strings don’t bother me at all. That’s my job.

73

Yeah, I don’t have children. I don’t plan on having any either. I am relatively sure even educators at charter schools will have to “highly qualified” under NCLB, so getting out now might not be a bad idea if you don’t want the further schooling and testing that will be required.

Here, if the union is gone, pay will decrease and hours will increase. From what you have said, you would never work here if such conditions took place.

The pay is low here because our union is so weak and it cannot negotiate proper pay and benefits. I do agree on your points concerning administration. Here, if you are hard working, you are forced to pursue an administrative job because of the extreme pay differential.

I also agree many of the other educators around me are unable to do what I do with my time (go to the extra curricular activities of my students, spend extra time after school to ensure success, etc.) This is mainly due to the fact they have families just like you.

I imagine being an RN is also professionally satisfying on some level. Certainly your wife knows much more about this than I.

There are a myriad of reasons why so many leave the field in the first five years. Pay has to be the first reason when one realizes how much true work is involved. Second, I would say, is due to the conditions first year teachers are thrown into on their own.

It was the federal “activist judges” than ended segregation in Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, not federal legislation.

That was a great line about not relying on the private funds but you should use it to your advantage. However, once suckling the nipple of funds, strange things happen in large institutions. I am certainly not against private grants, just extremely hesitant when relied upon (as most of our charter schools are here.)

I grew up in a western suburb of Cleveland, Ohio. The Cathollic schools were strong, along with the uber-wealthy private schools. I suppose it matters where you are. Here, where Southern Baptists rule, the schools are adequate, as far as I have seen.

I wholeheartedly agree minorities and the poor students must be accounted for in all school systems. However, the one-size-fits-all high stakes testing system is horrendous. There are a variety of other assessments that provide a much better view on the develop of a student.

Quite frankly, I find standardized testing one of the worst ways to determine the value of a student’s education. When you attach harsh penalties to scores not considered adequate you discourage the professionals in the field from engaging in true education. If I, personally, followed NCLB, I would ignore all arts based education. I would take away recess from the eight year olds. Any school based extra curricular activity would be a waste of time and resources. Technology? No time or money for that.

This is all absurd, and it is written facetiously. I am sure most parents would not desire their own children to go to a school where arts, technology, and athletics are completely ignored. Yet, as NCLB is currently written, this is what is encouraged.

Look, is NCLB inherently evil? No, the ideas behind them are noble (which means less money to some, ;). If we are going to continue with it, it definitely needs to be altered. For example, who creates the tests? What financial incentives do they have? Who do they send their campaign contributions to? Here, McGraw Hill creates our standardized tests, and they also create text books that are geared to teach to the test. Amazingly, that is not seen as a conflict of interest by anyone, which is absurd.

While we may disagree, I truly appreciate the non-combative tone of your posts. It is encouraging in a time of bitter division within our nation. I don’t have answers, only concerns and personal experiences.

Next year will be my fourth as an elementary school teacher. It will be my last. Since I am no longer married (thank God, for me personally, it was a mess) I am heading back to the university to acquire my PhD in Education Policy now that I can relocate freely. From your posts I can tell you are committed professionally and torn personally. It would be great to have you as a colleague (I know we teach different age levels, have differing opinions, but your thoughts speak volumes about your character.)

From what you have said, I will tell you something someone I respect dearly taught me not too long ago. I was torn about something, and this is what he said to me, “You, faith, your family, community, nation, the world, in that order, always in that order.”

While I am agnostic, these words always made sense to me. I am sure there are many who disagree, but I always made a better informed choice when I thought of that quote.

On a personal note, I would love to know where you teach. Perhaps I could come to visit your school to observe (we have a kick ass Principal at our school that may be able to swing it.) Also, how many children do you have and what ages? You can PM that info if you want. If not, I understand.

74

The education system nowadays is more concerned with a student’s self esteem instead of assuring that a student is prepared for college or the working world.

When I was a graduate student in college, I taught high school for one year. My teaching philosophy was to make sure my students were prepared for college when they left my class; this included heavy emphasis on reading and writing. I thought other teachers shared my viewpoint; however,when I attended a teacher’s workshop, my colleagues talked about making education “fun” for the students. This included allowing seniors to color pictures in their history class or building a marshmellow castle. Not once was reading and writing mentioned.

I will tell you that administrators pressure teachers to “dumb down” the class assignments because they don’t want to have students to fail or parents to complain. Also, teachers are encouraged to inflate grades so that students can pass. In essence, schools have become nothing but diploma factories. Students may think easy teachers and coloring picutres are cool now, but when they are 30 years old and can only find jobs that pay minimum wage or are struggling through remedial math in college, they’ll regret that they didn’t have teachers that were tough on them.

75

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wanna fix the education system?

Third - Make corporal punishment mandatory.

[/quote]

I am a big fan. Had it at my school back in South Africa. Let me tell you, when the varsity rugby coach is the person that canes you, you don’t fuck around. Unfortunately I can see a teacher getting shot by a student for doing this…

76

I’m too a big supportive of corpal punishment in schools. Unfortunately, parents think their little darlings can do no wrong and threaten you with lawsuits if you punish their child. In essence, a teacher’s hands are tied when it comes to discipline.

77

[quote]dolph76lftr wrote:
My teaching philosophy was to make sure my students were prepared for college when they left my class;
[/quote]

I think I asked this earlier in the thread, but nobody took the bait. Perhaps somebody will this time.

Is the goal of education to prepare a person for college?

I really am interested to hear what others think.

-FC

78

[quote]FlawlessCowboy wrote:
dolph76lftr wrote:
My teaching philosophy was to make sure my students were prepared for college when they left my class;

I think I asked this earlier in the thread, but nobody took the bait. Perhaps somebody will this time.

Is the goal of education to prepare a person for college?

I really am interested to hear what others think.

-FC[/quote]

That’s how we approach it. Because almost all of our students are low S-E-S Hispanics (who drop out of college at a horribly high rate), this is our focus. To get their high school diploma they have to be accepted to a four year college and matriculate.

I don’t know if that is the right approach, but if we hope to make a difference in this community it’s the most logical for now. In a more perfect world I think the focus would be more on maximizing individual ability.

79

High school education should prepare a student to be a functional and productive member of society, whether its going to college and getting a degree in business or going to a technical school and learning a trade. Regardless of the career path chosen, the person should be able to read and write and to have analytical thinking skills.

An education doesn’t end with a diploma or college degree. It’s a lifelong process, and the purpose of high school and college is to give a person the tools for this lifelong journey. Remember, give a man a fish and feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifeime.

[quote]FlawlessCowboy wrote:
dolph76lftr wrote:
My teaching philosophy was to make sure my students were prepared for college when they left my class;

I think I asked this earlier in the thread, but nobody took the bait. Perhaps somebody will this time.

Is the goal of education to prepare a person for college?

I really am interested to hear what others think.

-FC[/quote]

80

A blow to the poor.