Why is this?
What’s the perfect E2? There’s a lot of doctors and researchers that would love to have that info. Do you happen to know the perfect T levels by any chance?
There is a barrier, much like the blood/brain barrier, that keeps things away from the testes. Things like anasrozole cannot pass through this barrier, so taking an AI while taking HCG results in dampening the E2 everywhere, EXCEPT the one place most affected by HCG - the testes. You will start aromatizing there, where you have not been aromatizing on exogynous test.
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Not to answer out of turn, but I think I understand this part well enough to help you with your question.
The reason for this is that an AI (Aromatase Inhibitor) does just that…inhibits aromatase (conversion from testosterone into E2).
E2 created in the testicles is not created by aromatase, it is directly produced by the testicles and therefore cannot be prevented by inhibiting aromatase.
AI’s do not kill E2, they prevent aromatase from happening. Hope this helps to answer your question.
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Nice replies above.
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So if I add in hcg and it increases my e2 from lets say 24 to 50 (with some high e2 symptoms). Does that mean that there is no point increasing AI?
I’m in the “AI’s cause way more harm than good” crowd, so I have a bias here…BUT…
To answer your question from a neutral standpoint, I would tell you that no, under NO circumstances should you increase anything unless there is a SPECIFIC reason to do so.
So if you add HCG and it increases your E2, great. So what? E2 is beneficial for you.
If you add HCG and it increases your E2, and you start having all kinds of miserable sides…then I would argue that the HCG, not the E2, is not agreeing with you. Drop the HCG or lower the dose.
If you add HCG and it increases your E2, and you have miserable sides, and you refuse to drop the HCG for whatever reason, then try what you must. Just be watchful for things aching and clicking joints and things of the like. Lowering E2 can be dangerous long term.
Edit to add…
Keep in mind that whether you are primary or secondary hypogonadism will HIGHLY dictate whether or not you will see any real changes on HCG in the first place. Depending on this, the whole discussion may be moot.
I am a person that aromatizes like insane, if I use a TRT of 150mg (that puts my testosterone in 800) without an AI, within one week, a lump in my left nipple starts growing a lot. So I am already using an AI for TRT.
I just added in HCG about a week ago at 250iu e3.5d and it has caused my nipple to become sensitive and there is a very tiny lump (that always comes when my e2 is too high). And I want to give HCG a real try.
So I am wondering if the high e2 (mainly gyno/sensitive nipples) CAN be fixed by increasing the AI just a little or if it is totally pointless since the e2 from HCG comes from intratesticular aromatization?
If I just can get a little lower e2 so that my nipples won’t be sensitive or grow that would be perfect. I am not looking to crash my e2, just get it a little bit lower.
As was already stated, an AI will not touch increased E2 from testicular production due to HCG. Now it will decrease the amount aromatased in other areas, so will that be enough to compensate for the slight increase from HCG? I really don’t know, nor would I want to try and find out. It’s playing with fire.
Are you overweight? Aromatase (especially in excess) usually happens in the fat tissue.
Do you have VERIFIED and DIAGNOSED gyno, or did you just feel a small lump and have sensitivity, and let your imagination run wild?
No, not overweight at all. The only possible explanation I could have found for my excess aromatizon is that I have chronic inflammation but I am not sure if that is the case.
And no reason to let a very painful lump that kept on growing and growing (and became very obvious when I looked in the mirror) to become full blown gyno that needs surgery to be removed. Nolva and an adding an AI again has always made it go away but as soon as I let my e2 get way too high, it starts growing again.
The reason I asked this was because LOTS of guys, including myself, have had the “Gyno” scare, only to just leave it alone and watch it go away over time with NO further issues.
You may be killing a huge benefit of your TRT by taking an AI out of fear of this “developing into full blown gyno” (what does this even mean anyway?). True gyno is genetic, and is not caused by E2.
So you have had a very painful lump in your nipple that became bigger and bigger with time and then it all of a sudden just went away?
I think I am outlier since on 250mg Pharma Test E (1200 in testosterone) EW, even on 25mg Pharma Aromasin e3.5d (And yes, I bought the test and aromasin from the pharmacy), my sensitive e2 was 35.
Not quite… I had a small lump that got slightly bigger over time for a few weeks, and then stayed that way and then reversed…started getting smaller and now it’s gone…
I think the biggest misconception here is that these anomolies are CAUSED by E2. That’s really not true…
The best correlation I can find in any literature is that, in males with diagnosed gyno there have been found very high levels of E2 along with very low levels of testosterone …well NO SHIT! LOL
If you were diagnosed with gyno, then I would be singing a much different tune, but if you just have a fear, then I’m challenging you to consider whether that fear is warranted…
@dextermorgan can also give you some insight on nipple lump scares I believe… I may be confusing him with someone else though, so I apologize if I am mistaken…
If that was the case then there would be no bodybuilders with gyno since they have very high levels of testosterone.
And if the nipple growth/pre-gyno wasn’t caused at all by high e2, then nolva won’t do shit at all.
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Not true. There a few bodybuilders who have had gyno, but there even more that haven’t. If what you are saying is true, then EVERY bodybuilder who has done a cycle without an AI (and there are PLENTY that do this) would have gyno.
Also, don’t try to compare TRT to what bodybuilders are doing on cycle. It’s not even in the same wheelhouse… The levels don’t even come close to comparing, nor do the number of compounds that these guys are taking.
Nolva doesn’t do shit, other than bring down E2 levels. Let me try to clarify…
If your T to E2 ratio is such that E2 is too high, then it also stands to reason that your T is too low. You could live with low T and bring E2 down to a level where the T to E2 ratio is balanced (the dangerous and very non-beneficial way), or…
You could raise T levels a bit, or maybe even just change injection frequency and have less peaks in serum T levels (probably a better choice for excess aromatase) and balance the equation that way…
I have no dog in the hunt either way, other than to caution guys who take an AI (especially guys like you who take an elephant’s dosage worth lol) to be very careful with the harm they are doing to their bodies…
Why are you using the HCG? I’ve always struggled with it and just don’t find it worth the hassle.
100% this. I also believe a lot of the issues are because people become obsessed with TRT. I do it myself. Every time I have an off day or my libido is even slightly off, my mind tells me “E2 is too high“ or “E2 is too low”, or “my dose is too higH” or “too low” or “frequency is wrong“, etc etc etc. I needed to get out of my own head and stop over analyzing every single issue. In general, I feel much better than before TRT, simple as that. Obviously I’m not discounting the fact that people have real problems, I accept that. For me, life sometimes happens and TRT isn’t meant to make me feel like Superman, it’s meant to make me feel normal.
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It actually does, at least somewhat, aromatise to produce E2 there as well. The enzyme was found to be in the cells there, I think, in the late 1990’s.
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Interesting… So is it just that an AI cannot make the jump into testicular armatasing cells?
The fact that you quickly and easily form a lump that sounds like (And probably is, I am not arguing with your assessment) gyno, does not mean that you aromatise like crazy. It means that you in particular are prone to it. Nolvadex blocks E2 in breast tissue (So it would not likely have any effect on your actual E2 levels, it just blocks the E2 in breast tissue), and so is effective against gyno in those predisposed to it.
Some guys get sensitive and maybe begin to get a lump initilly, and then the body adjust to the new hormone levels and things calm down, Some guys get gyno and treat it with nolva or get surgery to remove the gland. Body builders use a lot of drugs to do what they do. Bot just testosterone, so it would be very hard to draw a correlation here, as it’s difficult to separate out what did what, if you know what I mean. If HCG has some significant impact for you, I would actually be willing to bet thatit’s the E2 being generated in the scrotum that’s bringing the benefit more than anything else, because you are blocking the hell out of E2 everywhere else.
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