DU is used because it has more density than lead and tungsten and it is harder than steel or tungsten carbide. It doesn’t “shatter”. It remains essentially in one piece usually. It does oxidize with high temp quickly. The high temp from the friction of passsing through armor causes enough heat that the leading edge of the cone of the penetrator oxidizes and causes a self-sharpening effect, making it a better penetrator.
We used an incredible amount of DU during Desert Storm (no, I don’t have a figure) which makes the amount used in OIF seem negligible. Of course, this was from Northern Kuwait to Basra and hundreds of miles west.
If you want to postulate that all the Desert Storm DU that has been sitting in the desert oxidizing into uranium dioxide dust, and may have spread via that sandstorm, I’d give that more creedence (probably “Run Through the Jungle”) over the idea that OIF DU is a culprit.
Still, DU is more of a heavy metal hazard wiht increased risk for bladder cancer than anything else.
Perhaps you would like to guess at the distribution of radioactive materials from the Chernobyle event? There were no sandstorms involved that I’m aware of.[/quote]
This seems to be over the top.
It’s like comparing the amount of dust given off by a throwing a brick at a wall to the amount of dust, ash, and soot given of by the WTC.
[quote]lucasa wrote:
This seems to be over the top.
It’s like comparing the amount of dust given off by a throwing a brick at a wall to the amount of dust, ash, and soot given of by the WTC.
[/quote]
Lucasa,
All I’m trying to do is show that it is very possible for contaminants to spread via airborn channels. The following is part of an NEA report on the Chernobyl incident.
– Chapter II: The Release, Dispersion and Deposition of Radionuclides
[i]
Radioactive contamination of the ground was found to some extent in practically every country of the northern hemisphere. European commission published on the basis of local measurements an atlas of contamination in Europe (De98).
…
Radioactivity was first detected outside the Soviet Union at a Nuclear Power station in Sweden, where monitored workers were noted to be contaminated. It was at first believed that the contamination was from a Swedish reactor. When it became apparent that the Chernobyl reactor was the source, monitoring stations all over the world began intensive sampling programmes.
The radioactive plume was tracked as it moved over the European part of the Soviet Union and Europe (Figure 6). Initially the wind was blowing in a Northwesterly direction and was responsible for much of the deposition in Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Belgium and Great Britain. Later the plume shifted to the South and much of Central Europe, as well as the Northern Medi-terranean and the Balkans, received some deposition, the actual severity of which depended on the height of the plume, wind speed and direction, terrain features and the amount of rainfall that occurred during the passage of the plume.
[/i]
After people accept the point that crap can be distributed via the weather, then we can focus on the amount of material that was available for release and where it came from.
So, given the above, I would imagine that small quantities are released to the atmosphere whenever a round is used in combat and hits its target.
Whether or not enough munitions have been used to cause a detectable quantity of material to drift anywhere is indeed doubtful. However, if somebody wanted to really argue the point, this is what they would have to show.
I’m going to take a wild guess and say you’ve never actually fired one at another tank…am I right? I have.
This sentence is easily the most devastating rebuttal of weenie talking points that I have seen this year.
Ouch!!!
JeffR
[/quote]
It is? Then the rebuttals you see must be pretty pathetic. How does firing the ordnance itself make him an expert on the effects of the residual waste they produce?
Does the fact that you use a computer daily make you an expert on them? You’ve manipulated food, does that make you a chef, or a nutritionist? Since you had a few colds when you were a young, dumb lad (and not an older, dumber adult) you’re probably a renowned virologist too?
With that kind of reasoning, it’s no wonder you prefer to parrot pre-chewed arguments rather than try to think for yourself.
I’m going to take a wild guess and say you’ve never actually fired one at another tank…am I right? I have.
This sentence is easily the most devastating rebuttal of weenie talking points that I have seen this year.
Ouch!!!
JeffR
It is? Then the rebuttals you see must be pretty pathetic. How does firing the ordnance itself make him an expert on the effects of the residual waste they produce?
Does the fact that you use a computer daily make you an expert on them? You’ve manipulated food, does that make you a chef, or a nutritionist? Since you had a few colds when you were a young, dumb lad (and not an older, dumber adult) you’re probably a renowned virologist too?
With that kind of reasoning, it’s no wonder you prefer to parrot pre-chewed arguments rather than try to think for yourself.
[/quote]
pookie (nice name, by the way),
There’s no use being cross. You were man-handled. Hedo clearly illustrated the difference between some guy on the sideline throwing rocks (you) versus someone who has been there. He’s handled the munitions. He went to school for it.
Let’s face it, you were dominated.
Now, I must confess, I’ve been the unwilling target of a few effective verbal ripostes.
My response illustrates one of the many differences between you and I. I smiled and said, “well done.”
If you had class, you could have said something like: “Nicely done. You are correct, I don’t have equivalent first hand knowledge. However, did you think about this?”
Understand? Acknowledge, compliment, and move on.
Don’t try to water it down with lame comebacks (aka…yours).
I know, asking you to exhibit class and appreciation is like asking a worm to jump rope.
Jerffy, you are such an incompetent fuckwad I can’t even begin to imagine the situation in which you get lecture another human on how to handle oneself in a discussion.
The fact that someone issued a “smackdown” has very little to do with the value of the debating points discussed.
Hedo’s training is going to be on how to handle and fire the munitions. He is not going to get a fucking degree in nuclear energy, environmental issues or political issues in such training.
If he has training other than hands-on weapons training, then he should tell us, because it would have a chance of giving him more credibility with respect to the chemistry or physics involved in the issue.
Weapons are built to be used by any idiot. That’s what the military does when it builds weapons systems. Load. Point. Pull trigger. Not much more needs to be known. Being the happy warhawk you are, you should join, I’m sure you could get much satisfaction from the load, point and pull procedure.
How you continue to be such a complete and utter fucking idiot cheerleader with not even a fucking notion of the issues involved is amazing to me. I am surprised you haven’t won a Darwin award by this point.
Sandia completes depleted uranium study
ALBUQUERQUE, N.M.
? Sandia National Laboratories has completed a two-year study of the potential health effects associated with accidental exposure to depleted uranium (DU) during the 1991 Gulf War.
The study, ?An Analysis of Uranium Dispersal and Health Effects Using a Gulf War Case Study,? performed by Sandia scientist Al Marshall, employs analytical capabilities used by Sandia?s National Security Studies Department and examines health risks associated with uranium handling.
U.S. and British forces used DU in armor-piercing penetrator bullets to disable enemy tanks during the Gulf and Balkan wars. DU is a byproduct of the process used to enrich uranium for use in nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons. During the enrichment process, the fraction of one type of uranium (uranium-235) is increased relative to the fraction found in natural uranium. As a consequence, the uranium left over after the enrichment process (mostly uranium-238) is depleted in uranium-235 and is called depleted uranium.
The high density, low cost, and other properties of DU make it an attractive choice as an anti-tank weapon. However, on impact, DU particulate is dispersed in the surrounding air both within and outside the targeted vehicle and suspended particulate may be inhaled or ingested. Concerns have been raised that exposure to uranium particulate could have serious health problems including leukemia, cancers, and neurocognitive effects, as well as birth defects in the progeny of exposed veterans and civilians.
Marshall?s study concluded that the reports of serious health risks from DU exposure are not supported by veteran medical statistics nor supported by his analysis. Only a few U.S. veterans in vehicles accidentally struck by DU munitions are predicted to have inhaled sufficient quantities of DU particulate to incur any significant health risk. For these individuals, DU-related risks include the possibility of temporary kidney damage and about a 1 percent chance of fatal cancer.
Several earlier studies were carried out by the U.S. Department of Defense, by University Professors Fetter (University of Maryland) and von Hippel (Princeton), and by an Army sponsored team from Pacific Northwest National Laboratories and Los Alamos National Laboratory.
The conclusions from the Sandia study are consistent with these earlier studies. The Sandia study, however, also includes an analysis of potential health effects of DU fragments embedded as shrapnel in the bodies of some U.S. veterans. The Sandia study also looked at civilian exposures in greater detail, examined the potential risk of DU-induced birth defects in the children of exposed individuals, and provided a more detailed analysis of the dispersion of DU following impact with a number of targeted vehicles.
For a full copy of the report, download the following pdf file: ?An Analysis of Uranium Dispersal and Health Effects Using a Gulf War Case Study?
Nice name. When mommy teaches you the rest of your name, I bet the letters are E, T, A, R and D.
[quote](crap here…)
Hedo clearly illustrated the difference between some guy on the sideline throwing rocks (you) versus someone who has been there. He’s handled the munitions. He went
to school for it.
(more crap here…)
JeffR
[/quote]
I guess we’ll have to take it slowly, one point at a time.
Where did Hedo mention that his training included studying the residual effects of DU ammo on the environment?
Please, point it out to me, 'cause I missed it.
Because, you see, the discussion here is in two parts. 1: Whether DU has an effect as a post-battle “residue” and 2: Whether Britain can be contaminated by DU used in Iraq.
I think you want to wait until we get to point 3: How do you actually pick up and insert the round in the cannon, where hedo’s training is quite relevant. No disrespect meant to Hedo for his service or his competences, but his training appears not to apply (from his own admission) for discussing 1 and 2.
But hey, I guess you enjoy, in your own special way, the parts you think you understand.
Jerffy, you are such an incompetent fuckwad I can’t even begin to imagine the situation in which you get lecture another human on how to handle oneself in a discussion.
The fact that someone issued a “smackdown” has very little to do with the value of the debating points discussed.
Hedo’s training is going to be on how to handle and fire the munitions. He is not going to get a fucking degree in nuclear energy, environmental issues or political issues in such training.
If he has training other than hands-on weapons training, then he should tell us, because it would have a chance of giving him more credibility with respect to the chemistry or physics involved in the issue.
Weapons are built to be used by any idiot. That’s what the military does when it builds weapons systems. Load. Point. Pull trigger. Not much more needs to be known. Being the happy warhawk you are, you should join, I’m sure you could get much satisfaction from the load, point and pull procedure.
How you continue to be such a complete and utter fucking idiot cheerleader with not even a fucking notion of the issues involved is amazing to me. I am surprised you haven’t won a Darwin award by this point.
Ignorance surely is bliss.[/quote]
Yes it is.
Yes Military Combat Commanders are all fucking idiots. Point and shoot. That’s all there is too it. What a tool. Do you have any idea the the level of technolgy it takes to hit a target a mile away, while travelling at 30 mph…while he is shooting at you. It’s a little more involved then the naive may think.
I posted an article from Sandia National labs. It’s a year old. DU rounds were not even used extensively in the latest Iraq war. The risks of DU are nearly close to zero.
Even a rudimentary knowledge of munitions and how they are used in a combat situation is enough to see that the issue is political and nothing more.
However, on impact, DU particulate is dispersed in the surrounding air both within and outside the targeted vehicle and suspended particulate may be inhaled or ingested.
…[/quote]
This should settle the question of whether DU ammo breaks up in large chunks or minute dust.
While this seems to indicate a reasonable amount of safety for those who manipulate and operate around those rounds; it does not address the possible effects on the local populations who spend a lot more time around the residues.
You’re both making your original posts look weaker with this rhetorical garbage, just in case you don’t realize it.
Neither one of you has a shred of experience or education the fields of weapon design, weapon use, ballistic effects, heavy metal toxicology, radiation poisoning, or meteorology.
I was a medical officer in a US Army Armor battalion during OIF1 specially trained in screening for and medically managing cases of suspected DU exposure. You have better credentials? Back them up.
hedo has more experience and training with it than either of you. Period. It was a legit slam, so accept it. And he is not an idiot. All soldiers I know learn all the details of their weapons and how they work. Their lives depend on them. And no one wants to go home and have funny looking kids after using those weapons, so they become familiar with the exposure risks associated with them. As far as hedo being an idiot? Get real. The technology in an Abrams is phenomenal. Who do you think maintains it? Guys like hedo. That includes all the electronic targeting computers, weapon firing systems, suspension, transmission, oh yeah, the gas turbine (that means jet engine for you ignorant two) that powers the thing. No idiot is working on that. American soldiers aren’t perfect. But they are generally not idiots or stupid. That’s why their the best, not just because of technology. I don’t know much about the Canadian Army, but if your soldiers are the simpletons you think ours our, you were right to keep them at home.
The simple point is this. You cannot provide a shred of evidence to prove DU is the culprit behind reported increase disease rates in Southern Iraq. Nobody I found on the internet, including my medical journals I subscribe to, report any trends of abnormally high urine uranium test (the test for uranium contamination) results on the population in that area. Find me one. Just one. Please. Or find me pictures of 2 headed lambs or baby camels with 3 eyes who have been grazing in those areas. Not even one?
Maybe it was from the oil fires Saddam set? Maybe it’s better reporting because the Shiites have better access to health care than they had under Saddam? Maybe it’s all a farse sponsored by Iran, who influences the Basra area so heavily, in order to further destabilize American support for the new Iraqi Democracy.
However, on impact, DU particulate is dispersed in the surrounding air both within and outside the targeted vehicle and suspended particulate may be inhaled or ingested.
…
This should settle the question of whether DU ammo breaks up in large chunks or minute dust.[/quote]
Nope. Wrong. The leading edge of the penetrator rod oxidizes leaving a relatively small amount in the vehicle as dust. The bulk of the rod passes through the vehicle intact. It does not disintegrate upon impact.
[quote]Marshall?s study concluded that the reports of serious health risks from DU exposure are not supported by veteran medical statistics nor supported by his analysis. Only a few U.S. veterans in vehicles accidentally struck by DU munitions are predicted to have inhaled sufficient quantities of DU particulate to incur any significant health risk.
While this seems to indicate a reasonable amount of safety for those who manipulate and operate around those rounds; it does not address the possible effects on the local populations who spend a lot more time around the residues.
[/quote]
If this last statement doesn’t address the possible effects on a local population, fine.
But do the following.
Find a reputable source stating ground and water sample uranium levels in the Basra area.
Find a reputable source stating the rate of grazing animal birth defects in the area (goats, sheep, camels).
Find a reputable study that shows increased urine uranium content of persons in the Basra area indication uranium ingestion or inhalation.
I tried on the internet and in my medical journals, and I can’t find any.
[quote]Patrick Williams wrote:
hedo has more experience and training with it than either of you.[/quote]
I don’t doubt hedo’s training nor his expertise. But I still don’t think his training involved studying the effects of DU on the populations local to the battlefields. He hasn’t said otherwise.
And while my personal work doesn’t involve DU in any shape or form, it’s possible to read reports and papers about those subjects. (Ex: Teratogenicity of depleted uranium aerosols: a review from an epidemiological perspective - PubMed ) While it does not make me “an expert” I still think an educated layman is able to discuss the topic without having to show credentials constantly. If only “experts” get to discuss the various topics, these threads are going to get awfully quiet.
Note also that I didn’t claim any soldier to be an idiot at any time. Please don’t lump me in with stuff vroom says just because we happen to agree on some other points.
However, on impact, DU particulate is dispersed in the surrounding air both within and outside the targeted vehicle and suspended particulate may be inhaled or ingested.
…
This should settle the question of whether DU ammo breaks up in large chunks or minute dust.
Marshall?s study concluded that the reports of serious health risks from DU exposure are not supported by veteran medical statistics nor supported by his analysis. Only a few U.S. veterans in vehicles accidentally struck by DU munitions are predicted to have inhaled sufficient quantities of DU particulate to incur any significant health risk.
While this seems to indicate a reasonable amount of safety for those who manipulate and operate around those rounds; it does not address the possible effects on the local populations who spend a lot more time around the residues.
[/quote]
I don’t think the occupants of the vehicle hit by the DU round would be alive to ingest any of the dust.
Patrick correctly pointed out that very few DU rounds were used in the current Iraq war. There was no reason to do so after the initial three weeks.
[quote]hedo wrote:
I don’t think the occupants of the vehicle hit by the DU round would be alive to ingest any of the dust. [/quote]
They mention that they were “accidentally hit”, so presumably the round had lost enough velocity or hit at some awkward angle or whatever to explode but leave survivors. Probably not a common occurence, I’ll grant you that.
[quote]Patrick correctly pointed out that very few DU rounds were used in the current Iraq war. There was no reason to do so after the initial three weeks.
[/quote]
This discussion has veered somewhat offtrack.
While discussing the original article, some posts where made claiming that DU rounds didn’t create dust and that “depleted” uranium meant 0% radiation.
There was a side discussion concerning the possible long-term effects on local populations, but there appears to be little to no data to settle that debate one way or the other. Those who wouldn’t mind their kids playing in an area where DU rounds had been used, raise your hands.
As for the DU rounds, I think enough URLs and articles (many from the Army) have been posted to establish that DU round do create some dust on impact and that inhaling it is hazardous. DU also has low radiation levels, not zero, and some studies have shown that birth defects are increased in humans exposed to the stuff.
As for blowing the stuff from Iraq to Britain, the available evidence is, how shall we say? Weak? Anyway, it doesn’t convince me.
The rest of the crap can pretty much be attributed to JeffR’s lackluster reading comprehension and me being stupid enough to actually think I could explain what we’re talking about to him.
Nice name. When mommy teaches you the rest of your name, I bet the letters are E, T, A, R and D.
(crap here…)[/quote]
Well, that wasn’t very kind. Nor was making fun of my last name very clever.
Now, unless your name is trully “pookie,” one has to wonder at the mindset of one who chooses it on a forum called Testosterone.
If, however, your name is trully pookie, one has to wonder at your parents.
I must add that your politics do reflect someone with the name of pookie. I’ll bet you have friends named: Cornflower, or maple, or starlight.
But, I digress…
Go as fast as you can.
But, don’t trip over the Gingerbread man (another of your pals’ names).
[quote]Where did Hedo mention that his training included studying the residual effects of DU ammo on the environment?
Please, point it out to me, 'cause I missed it.[/quote]
Why don’t you simply ask him?
I know the answer already.
I’m sorry, pookie, there is no discussion. Guys who know about it are telling you and you aren’t listening.
Open your eyes, young wall-flower. They are telling you.
Again, I’m not going to ask him foolish questions. I’ll leave that up to you.
[quote]But hey, I guess you enjoy, in your own special way, the parts you think you understand.
[/quote]
Ok, sprinkle, I’ll make it plain: You are way out of your league. I wouldn’t dare employ your tactic with these guys. They are giving you first hand accounts (PERSONAL PICTURES FOR GOD’S SAKE), links, and hints at their training.
That means, by default, they are at least fifty-percent more informed than you are.
Therefore, it might be a good idea, butttercup, to employ a more respectful tone.
Why don’t you ask them questions? They seem very receptive to a civil discussion. However, it is the height of hubris for you to assume an air of superiority.
You are being schooled and apparently cannot take my friendly advice: I suggest you either change your tone, or bow out gracefully.
However, if you choose to continue, I want to extend my thanks for the amusement.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
Why don’t you simply ask him? [/quote]
hedo’s following the thread. I’m sure he’s quite able to address any mistake I make without me having to ask him specific questions about everything I write.
Actually, hedo himself said previously that he though I was right on some points and wrong on others. We were discussing that “other” part before you barged in with your pompoms to cheerlead from the back benches.
He also said that his training was from 20 years ago and that it was “pretty basic stuff.” From that I get that while he’s surely an expert on operating and commanding a tank on the battlefield; he doesn’t have that much more info than anyone who can operate a search engine when it comes to the long term effects of exploded DU rounds. In fact, as far as we’ve been able to establish, no one has.
And why should he? The Army doesn’t set up camp and stay there for 30 years. They do the job and move on; when the tour is over, they come home.
Why would he post articles from Sandia National Labs if his first-hand experience was enough to settle the issue?
Yeah, that’s why hedo says I’m right on some points… Making up your own reality as you go along must be a blast.
Pictures? We’re discussing microscopic DU dust and its effect. How is a picture of a dump in Iraq relevant in any way?
Fuck, have you even the most basic understanding of what a discussion is? Are you able to identify the topic by yourself?
You’ve reached an impressive level of stupid.
I see that your math ability is in keeping with your other shortcomings.
Actually, I don’t recall using a disrespectful tone with anyone contributing something to this thread.
What the fuck are you talking about? We’re having a discussion. We don’t agree on some points, so we debate them.
Of course, in your case, where everyone is smarter than you, it’s probably safer to immediately bow down the moment anyone claims any credentials, no questions asked.
It probably explains why most of your contributions tend to be to paste stuff from biased media and cheer on others who, for some reason or another, you happen to like.
Schooled? Show me one thing I posted that has shown to be wrong.
Well, morons are easily amused. You might try flinging your own poo, I’m sure that’s good for a few months of guffaws.
Yes Military Combat Commanders are all fucking idiots. Point and shoot. That’s all there is too it. What a tool. Do you have any idea the the level of technolgy it takes to hit a target a mile away, while travelling at 30 mph…while he is shooting at you. It’s a little more involved then the naive may think.[/quote]
Hedo, I wasn’t insulting people who serve in the military. No matter how complex the task is, it doesn’t involve physics or chemistry, and I think you are aware of that.
Let me know when you have to pull out your calculator and physics/chemistry textbook to fire a round. That is all I’m saying. Don’t be so damned sensitive over nothing.
[quote]I posted an article from Sandia National labs. It’s a year old. DU rounds were not even used extensively in the latest Iraq war. The risks of DU are nearly close to zero.
Even a rudimentary knowledge of munitions and how they are used in a combat situation is enough to see that the issue is political and nothing more.[/quote]
Hedo, whether or not it is political has nothing to do with whether or not you’ve handled the rounds. Sometimes health conditions take time to make themselves known. In such cases, it can be difficult to discover the source of problems, or even realize that there was a common source.
If people in the medical industry were to be as sensitive as you, they’d be bitching that there is much more to determining health risks than living through an initial exposure.