Deja Jew

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Regardless of it being a codified system of beliefs and behavior for a group of people? lol. Okay. [/quote]

  1. Outside of your head who in their right mind considers criminal law a religion?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

So the qualification is the peace of society? So, human rights are out? But again, on what authority is the peace of society important? I don’t think the peace of society has anything to do with morality, so that would instantly put us at an impasse on agreement of your moral code.

And again, I know you don’t believe anything is certain, you already admitted that you aren’t sure if raping a child is wrong. And further that you are willing to punish and take the liberty of someone based on a belief that you aren’t sure of. How that makes the world a better place, I’m not sure.

I also don’t know how being unsure of something and willing to go back on it, means you can’t worship it. Lots of people worship Christ and every one of them has doubts. If doubting disqualifies it from worship. No one worships religion. [/quote]

Where did I say I’m not sure about child rape? I said I’d be willing to change my mind on any law if it was accompanied by sound reasonable arguments. I just don’t claim absolute certainty. You’re honestly reading what you want to read at this point.

How did you come to the conclusion human rights would not play a factor in what rules should govern society? Stop bullshitting

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I’d say they worship government. I’d also say I’d rather live here. If you locked everyone in a cell and had machines keep everyone alive, the crime rate would be 0. Would the world be a better place?

Or if you made everything legal, the crime rate would be 0.

Uniformity and conformity. Freedom has consequences.

But the truth is that you are entirely failing to see the other side. You’re judgment between Japan and the US is only valid if your Atheistic beliefs are true. If Christian beliefs are true, then a US murder victim going to heaven is way better of than a rich Japanese guy getting drunk and sleeping with random women his whole life.

For all your “open mindedness” you don’t seem to be willing to step back and truly look at your beliefs, or the beliefs of others.
[/quote]

LOL

The Japanese worship the government huh? Yeah and I’m the one not making sense.

The Japanese do not have extremely lax laws where rape and murder are legal. So why bring up the fact if everything were legal the crime rate would be 0? How does that have any bearing in this example? Stop pulling crap out of your ass. They are an excellent example of a well functioning highly secular society. Deal with it.

Atheism is a lack of a belief. Try again.

62

[quote]pushharder wrote:
What was the atheist position on slavery over the past 18 centuries, Raj?

You’re close to losing me as a debating opponent soon, man. You’re headed toward Pittbull-dom. You’ve got to step up your game. FWIW.
[/quote]

Atheism is a lack of belief in a god.

It has no stance on slavery.

63

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Regardless of it being a codified system of beliefs and behavior for a group of people? lol. Okay. [/quote]

  1. Outside of your head who in their right mind considers criminal law a religion?

[/quote]
How many people have ever rationally considered the possibility and objectively evaluated it. I logically showed why it is, You haven?t addressed the substance in any way. It is because it fits the definition.

?Where did I say I’m not sure about child rape? ? ?I just don’t claim absolute certainty?? uh, why ask a question and then answer it.

?We come up with acceptable laws so we can live peacefully together in society?

cause you said the peace of society is the justification for laws. That is in direct contradiction to human rights.

LOL

The Japanese worship the government huh? Yeah and I’m the one not making sense.

The Japanese do not have extremely lax laws where rape and murder are legal. So why bring up the fact if everything were legal the crime rate would be 0? How does that have any bearing in this example? Stop pulling crap out of your ass. They are an excellent example of a well functioning highly secular society. Deal with it.

Atheism is a lack of a belief. Try again.[/quote]

I pointed it out, because it logically shows that lowest crime rate doesn?t mean the best. But again, you latched on to the semantics of once sentence and ignored all the points I made.

Okay you addressed one of my sentences (even if poorly) address the rest.

So tell me, without belief, how can you believe that Japan is better?

64

  1. Sorry but a religion includes worship of some sort. No one worships criminal law. Maybe only in your head

  2. I claim to know child rape is wrong in relative world, things relative to us.

  3. I mean the rules that best benefit society overall. Ones that contribute to Human rights, peace, etc. You’re just splitting hairs

  4. I hold beliefs, just a lack of a god belief. That’s what atheism is. Nothing more.

65

Why has this thread turned into another debate on religion?

Anyway, back to the topic. Unfortuntately anti-Semitism in Europe is not limited to Muslims:

"A survey conducted last year for the Friederich Ebert Foundation, a German think tank linked to Germany’s Social Democratic Party, was eloquent. To the question: Do you think that Jews abuse their status as victims of Nazism? positive responses reached proportions hardly imaginable: 72.2% in Poland, 48% in Germany, 40.2% in Italy, 32.3% in France.

Another question, Do you understand why people do not like Jews , generated results that must be faced. Number of positive responses: 55.2% in Poland, 48.9% in Germany, 40.2% in Italy. The question was not asked in France. In several polls conducted in Europe over the last decade, Israel was identified as the most dangerous country for world peace, tied with Iran.

The question, Do you think that Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians, was asked. Positive responses : 63% in Poland, 47.7% in Germany."

66

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
A law is held as incontrovertibly true. So, because Christianity changed it’s law on stoning people, the law and belief in stoning people wasn’t dogmatic?[/quote]

Couple of points:

  1. The “cast the first stone” crew in that story were acting illegally under Jewish law. A proper tribunal and finding was necessary (where lienency was generally applied), and there was much more necessary than simple prostitution for the death penalty to be imposed. This was a lynch mob.

  2. Most of the Old Testament stuff (like stoning adulterers) were never applicable to gentiles, which most Christians are. Non-Jews were (and remain) subject to the Laws of Noah.
    In fact, for most of the REALLY weird stuff, applied only to Jewish people, living in Israel, under a King of the line of David, with the Holy Temple open and in full swing.

Am I the only Catholic who paid attention in Confirmation class?

67

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Why has this thread turned into another debate on religion?
[/quote]

Honestly, it’s friday and work is slow.

I was just bored and felt like arguing. lol

68

Lulz, Raj you should just start over. You’ve totally lost the argument by letting them put words in your mouth and twisting the few that they didn’t place there.

You’ve let them equate law to religion by letting them state that believing in something codified equates to religion (it doesn’t).

You’ve let them get away with all morality stems from religion and wouldn’t exist without it (not true).

The fact of the matter is you don’t have to be fearful of a higher power whether it be god(s) or the government to realize hey I probably shouldn’t do this shit. If you fear the repercussions of acting a certain way then you don’t understand why you shouldn’t do it, only that you don’t want to get in trouble so you won’t.

This is a pretty interesting topic though. If you guys like it you should do a little free reading. I have some good sources of historical fiction I’d recommend: Bible, Koran, Old Testament, etc.

69

the radical islamist wants to off your heads and take your countries over. only takes a few bad ones to eff up the country…

70

japan doesnt worship govt. they treasure govt and worship there ways of life. they put the whole ahead of the individual.

71

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
Lulz, Raj you should just start over. You’ve totally lost the argument by letting them put words in your mouth and twisting the few that they didn’t place there.

You’ve let them equate law to religion by letting them state that believing in something codified equates to religion (it doesn’t).

You’ve let them get away with all morality stems from religion and wouldn’t exist without it (not true).

The fact of the matter is you don’t have to be fearful of a higher power whether it be god(s) or the government to realize hey I probably shouldn’t do this shit. If you fear the repercussions of acting a certain way then you don’t understand why you shouldn’t do it, only that you don’t want to get in trouble so you won’t.

This is a pretty interesting topic though. If you guys like it you should do a little free reading. I have some good sources of historical fiction I’d recommend: Bible, Koran, Old Testament, etc.[/quote]

I’ve been saying a lot of the stuff here for a while.

I pointed out several times codified law = religion is just bullshit.

Only in DoubleDeuce’s mind does that exist.

He thinks Japan worships the government and criminal law is a religion. I should’ve just stopped after he said that.

I will agree that it wasn’t my best work.

72

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Why has this thread turned into another debate on religion?

Anyway, back to the topic. Unfortuntately anti-Semitism in Europe is not limited to Muslims:

"A survey conducted last year for the Friederich Ebert Foundation, a German think tank linked to Germany’s Social Democratic Party, was eloquent. To the question: Do you think that Jews abuse their status as victims of Nazism? positive responses reached proportions hardly imaginable: 72.2% in Poland, 48% in Germany, 40.2% in Italy, 32.3% in France.

Another question, Do you understand why people do not like Jews , generated results that must be faced. Number of positive responses: 55.2% in Poland, 48.9% in Germany, 40.2% in Italy. The question was not asked in France. In several polls conducted in Europe over the last decade, Israel was identified as the most dangerous country for world peace, tied with Iran.

The question, Do you think that Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians, was asked. Positive responses : 63% in Poland, 47.7% in Germany."[/quote]

Well, good on you for trying, but I think this thread is thoroughly derailed… =/

73

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]StevenF wrote:
Imagine a world with no religion. [/quote]

First thing. John Lennon was an asshole. The world is better off without him.

Second. They listened to him in Europe and this is what has happened. They have abandoned Christianity and now they are being over run by muslims who are being just as prejudiced and hateful there as they are everywhere else. The Third Reich didn’t make Europe Judenfrei but the caliphate will. [/quote]

Sweden and other Scandinavian countries have some of the lowest violent crime rates in the world.

What does abandoning their religion have to do with them being “over-run” by Muslims? They are not reproducing at a high enough rate and need immigrants to increase their labour force. Many of these immigrants coming over are muslim.[/quote]

According to the EU, Sweden has one of the highest instances of reported rapes in Europe.

74

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]StevenF wrote:
Imagine a world with no religion. [/quote]

OK. I am picturing a Soviet Gulags, the killing fields of Cambodia, almost a billion dead Chinese, and millions of children killed in their mothers’ wombs.

Ah, the atheist utopians![/quote]

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

[/quote]

Raj’s remark is truer than he will ever realize.

75

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]StevenF wrote:
Imagine a world with no religion. [/quote]

First thing. John Lennon was an asshole. The world is better off without him.

Second. They listened to him in Europe and this is what has happened. They have abandoned Christianity and now they are being over run by muslims who are being just as prejudiced and hateful there as they are everywhere else. The Third Reich didn’t make Europe Judenfrei but the caliphate will. [/quote]

Sweden and other Scandinavian countries have some of the lowest violent crime rates in the world.

What does abandoning their religion have to do with them being “over-run” by Muslims? They are not reproducing at a high enough rate and need immigrants to increase their labour force. Many of these immigrants coming over are muslim.[/quote]

According to the EU, Sweden has one of the highest instances of reported rapes in Europe.
[/quote]

How does the rape rate compare to the US? Why are you comparing Sweden a mostly secular nation to other mostly secular nations?

It doesn’t matter though, Scandinavian countries in general have a lower overall VIOLENT CRIME RATE compared to the US. Rape is only one aspect of that.

76

[quote]cwill1973 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]StevenF wrote:
Imagine a world with no religion. [/quote]

OK. I am picturing a Soviet Gulags, the killing fields of Cambodia, almost a billion dead Chinese, and millions of children killed in their mothers’ wombs.

Ah, the atheist utopians![/quote]

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

[/quote]

Raj’s remark is truer than he will ever realize.
[/quote]

That should give you a head start. Since I’m guessing you’re theist, you will probably ignore all points made in the thread.

77

[quote]GhorigTheBeefy wrote:
Lulz, Raj you should just start over. You’ve totally lost the argument by letting them put words in your mouth and twisting the few that they didn’t place there.

You’ve let them equate law to religion by letting them state that believing in something codified equates to religion (it doesn’t).

You’ve let them get away with all morality stems from religion and wouldn’t exist without it (not true).

The fact of the matter is you don’t have to be fearful of a higher power whether it be god(s) or the government to realize hey I probably shouldn’t do this shit. If you fear the repercussions of acting a certain way then you don’t understand why you shouldn’t do it, only that you don’t want to get in trouble so you won’t.

This is a pretty interesting topic though. If you guys like it you should do a little free reading. I have some good sources of historical fiction I’d recommend: Bible, Koran, Old Testament, etc.[/quote]

“You’ve let them equate law to religion by letting them state that believing in something codified equates to religion (it doesn’t).”

No, not what I said. This is a great example of twisting words. A Codified morally based legal system is religion. It is a codified system agreed upon be a group of people establishing mandates of behavior and practices defining good and bad. Any agreed upon system of morality is religion. Can anyone give any better rationalization other than to blindly claim it isn’t?

“You’ve let them get away with all morality stems from religion and wouldn’t exist without it (not true).”

Wrong. This is also a twisting of words. I never claimed morality stemmed from religion in the least. I claimed moral codes are a religion. There is a huge difference. Christianity didn’t beget morally based laws, the 2 are siblings.

“The fact of the matter is you don’t have to be fearful of a higher power whether it be god(s) or the government to realize hey I probably shouldn’t do this shit. If you fear the repercussions of acting a certain way then you don’t understand why you shouldn’t do it, only that you don’t want to get in trouble so you won’t.”

Okay, now you are just inventing things. No one said anything about a fear of a higher power. It seems you have a magic ass you like to pull things out of too.

And the Bible and old testament are overlapping sources. And more properly they are ancient historical sources, not historical fiction. All sources from ancient history must be read for what they are. The bible is more historically accurate than many other secular sources that no one ever seems to call works of fiction.

78

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And the Bible and old testament are overlapping sources. And more properly they are ancient historical sources, not historical fiction. All sources from ancient history must be read for what they are. The bible is more historically accurate than many other secular sources that no one ever seems to call works of fiction.
[/quote]

Which other secular sources?

Anyways it doesn’t matter. The fact that certain events the Bible talks about actually happened does not mean the miracles reported did as well. There is no evidence to suggest any of the supernatural or god claims are true.

79

Pretty much all the ancient historical sources have miracles. And I never claimed it meant that the miracles happened. Any of the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, est. sources all have crazy miracles and feats in them. Just pointing out that no one seems to call them fiction.

Egyptian history calls men gods and never recorded any Egyptian defeats. Much of what we know of the druids was written by roman sources who were essentially engaged in a propaganda smear campaign. The sources on Alexander the great are second or third hand and written 600 or more years after the fact and include entirely contradicting stories and miracles. And on and on and on. That’s how pretty much how all ancient historical sources are.

80

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Pretty much all the ancient historical sources have miracles. And I never claimed it meant that the miracles happened. Any of the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, est. sources all have crazy miracles and feats in them. Just pointing out that no one seems to call them fiction.

Egyptian history calls men gods and never recorded any Egyptian defeats. Much of what we know of the druids was written by roman sources who were essentially engaged in a propaganda smear campaign. The sources on Alexander the great are second or third hand and written 600 or more years after the fact and include entirely contradicting stories and miracles. And on and on and on. That’s how pretty much how all ancient historical sources are.[/quote]

That’s fine, but no one believes the miracle parts as facts. That’s what I was trying to get at. If you’re not claiming they happened that’s fine.