[quote]chrismcl wrote:
Goddammit!
And here I thought this was gonna be a thread about chicks that like the dick![/quote]
Monica has been in the discussions!
[quote]chrismcl wrote:
Goddammit!
And here I thought this was gonna be a thread about chicks that like the dick![/quote]
I love your Master Shake avatar.
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
And no one is here is heralding him as a hero. You wanna call him a rat, fine! It doesn’t change the fact that wrongdoing was exposed!
How impossible would it be to be President of the country or most lasrge companies if this were the case everywhere.
There has to exist a certain level of loyalty and looking the other way for the President to get things done. Look at what we’ve since learned of many of our leaders and their actions while in office.
Sometimes it’s a dirty job and in that case give me all the G. Gordon’s and Olly’s that you got. They’ll walk the wall and watch your back![/quote]
Does Olly refer to Oliver North?
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I gotta go with RJ on the loyalty thing. Deep Throat was no hero. It is not like Nixon was looting the treasury or murdering people. I do not believe Nixons crimes were large enough to justify the betrayal.
Nixon was actually a much better President than his image, but he was a scum bag.
It was the cover up that did him in, but every President covers up. It is a very bizarre chapter in history.
I love how you all make excuses for this but are ready to rape Mrs. Clinton about any issues of “conspiracy”. If Nixon was going against the rights of Americans in his actions, you all are complete hypocrites to uphold the idea of going along with it simply because you claim “loyalty”. With that in mind, no military personal should have been found guilty for any issues with Abu Gh’raib. Loyalty should have covered it up. That doesn’t mean Deep throat is without fault either. He was pardoned of his offenses, however, by President Reagan.
I thought that Ken Starr overstepped his bounds going after Clinton. Even though Clinton was in the wrong, I thought it was mostly bullshit.
Hillary has been complicit in a number of coverups and is now a Senator. Nixon was forced out of office.
All that shows me is that when push comes to shove the Republican Party does the right thing with it’s scumbags when forced to and the Democrats don’t.
Not so sure about that. Not to get the thread off track, but Tom DeLay is by most accounts a scum bag too, and Dick Cheney doesn’t have the best ethical record in the world. I don’t see either one of them being forced out of office anytime soon. Are the Democrats worse? Maybe. But the ideals of the 1994 revolution and the Contract with America seem to be drifting farther and farther away as Republicans become entrenched in power.[/quote]
Are you surprised by this?
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
And no one is here is heralding him as a hero. You wanna call him a rat, fine! It doesn’t change the fact that wrongdoing was exposed!
How impossible would it be to be President of the country or most lasrge companies if this were the case everywhere.
There has to exist a certain level of loyalty and looking the other way for the President to get things done. Look at what we’ve since learned of many of our leaders and their actions while in office.
Sometimes it’s a dirty job and in that case give me all the G. Gordon’s and Olly’s that you got. They’ll walk the wall and watch your back![/quote]
You’ve got to be kidding me! What kind of asanine reasoning is this? Yeah look the other way while we defraud and steal from you.
[quote]vroom wrote:
I don’t know… this whole schoolyard snitching thing seems a bit absurd.
Sometimes, yes, only sometimes, you are forced to look at the greater good and go against what you perceive as your duty of loyalty.
Perhaps for some, nothing would ever make you do that.
I have no idea whether or not Deep Throat is really a scumbag or a hero. Perhaps he is neither.
However, it is incredibly important that the government not act outside of the bounds of legality, abusing the rights of its citizens. This is a HUGE fucking deal.
It’s good that the information came out and it’s good that the president at the time got slapped. Given the attitudes expressed, I’d imagine Deep Throat would indeed have been killed if he had gone public – since we are so much more “enlightened” in this day and age.
Maybe he didn’t want to sacrifice being around for his family? Maybe he should have found a better way to expose the truth? Maybe he should have had a better reason?
Who cares? The real issues is that the government learned that it wasn’t always able to be above the law and do what it wishes. Assuming the lesson actually took, which is questionable, this is priceless – and worth much more than a possible broken loyalty between people we don’t know anything about.[/quote]
Did you just suggest that Deep Throat may have been knocked off for doing what he did? Now that would be a conspiracy and we know those things don’t happen in this country.
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
It is true that my original intent was to gather info on the scandal. As is the want of most threads, they go certain ways. More often than not, a different way than intended.
At this point-yes- I think the guy came out for the glory or the money. What other motive exists? If Woodward and Bernstein were willing to go to the gravew with it why not him? Do you think it was strictly a cathartic move at this point?
I understand the other ocurring events–though I would like you or someone else to fill me in more-but Nixon was brought down for the wiretapping and cover-up–re: of the motive to bring those charges. Is that correct? I don’t want to lessen it if more is involved. You are right, that is what I want to know–that was my original intent.
Were those others in power so intent on removing Nixon for bigger reasons than this? Was he an obstacle to the war effort? Were there bigger national-international issues behind the move to oust the President?
As far as other people wanting Nixon out of office I do know that he talked about bringing in the reigns on the C.I.A. and there are heavy consequences to such statements. Kennedy said the same thing and also wanted to pull troops out of Vietnam alot sooner. The C.I.A. was also heavily involved in the October Surprise scandal against Carter who fired 700 operatives including the then director Bush Sr. when he was elected.
Off topic slightly
Are you suggesting that Kennedy’s desires played into the assassination? Are you one of the many conspiracy kings out there that believe this was more than one man? I’m not bashing here–I must admit while most of the evidence points a certain way–like the Bible, many things can be interpreted to fit a given theory.
October Surprise? Was this the failed rescue attempt of American hostages in Iran?[/quote]
So because I believe that Oswald wasn’t the lone killer and more or less a patsy then that makes me a “conspiracy king”. There are plenty of people including University Professors, law enforcement officials and citizens of this country who don’t believe the “official” version. As far as the October Surprise scandal you can google it if you’d like to find out.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
Elkhntr1 wrote:
And no one is here is heralding him as a hero. You wanna call him a rat, fine! It doesn’t change the fact that wrongdoing was exposed!
How impossible would it be to be President of the country or most lasrge companies if this were the case everywhere.
There has to exist a certain level of loyalty and looking the other way for the President to get things done. Look at what we’ve since learned of many of our leaders and their actions while in office.
Sometimes it’s a dirty job and in that case give me all the G. Gordon’s and Olly’s that you got. They’ll walk the wall and watch your back!
You’ve got to be kidding me! What kind of asanine reasoning is this? Yeah look the other way while we defraud and steal from you.[/quote]
So it’s not the way the real world works? Have you been in a boardroom or meeting? I’m not suggesting it is Utopia, just that it ocurrs and maybe needs to to do business and politics.
And Yah, I’m talking about Olly North. I’ll take all the Olly’s you got, and my army will whip your army any day. He’s a patriot and a leader and can play on my team any time he asks.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
sasquatch wrote:
It is true that my original intent was to gather info on the scandal. As is the want of most threads, they go certain ways. More often than not, a different way than intended.
At this point-yes- I think the guy came out for the glory or the money. What other motive exists? If Woodward and Bernstein were willing to go to the gravew with it why not him? Do you think it was strictly a cathartic move at this point?
I understand the other ocurring events–though I would like you or someone else to fill me in more-but Nixon was brought down for the wiretapping and cover-up–re: of the motive to bring those charges. Is that correct? I don’t want to lessen it if more is involved. You are right, that is what I want to know–that was my original intent.
Were those others in power so intent on removing Nixon for bigger reasons than this? Was he an obstacle to the war effort? Were there bigger national-international issues behind the move to oust the President?
As far as other people wanting Nixon out of office I do know that he talked about bringing in the reigns on the C.I.A. and there are heavy consequences to such statements. Kennedy said the same thing and also wanted to pull troops out of Vietnam alot sooner. The C.I.A. was also heavily involved in the October Surprise scandal against Carter who fired 700 operatives including the then director Bush Sr. when he was elected.
Off topic slightly
Are you suggesting that Kennedy’s desires played into the assassination? Are you one of the many conspiracy kings out there that believe this was more than one man? I’m not bashing here–I must admit while most of the evidence points a certain way–like the Bible, many things can be interpreted to fit a given theory.
October Surprise? Was this the failed rescue attempt of American hostages in Iran?
So because I believe that Oswald wasn’t the lone killer and more or less a patsy then that makes me a “conspiracy king”. There are plenty of people including University Professors, law enforcement officials and citizens of this country who don’t believe the “official” version. As far as the October Surprise scandal you can google it if you’d like to find out.
[/quote]
So what! There are university profs that believe they have spooted a U.F.O. That doesn’t make it so. What kind of asinine reasoning is that?-to use your phrase.
And thanks for the mature response to October Sirprise–from the rest of your posts I shouldn’t have expected a conversation or discussion. Just little hit and run shards from you.
I’ve asked you fair questions and got no responses. You want to stand by a snitch–go ahead. Actually snitching for the right reason may be acceptable, I don’t personally believe this mans’ justification warranted his ‘ratism’
Ummmm… I didn’t write a response about Oct. Surprise because I didn’t have the time so I really didn’t think it would be all that difficult to google it. If you really want to talk about it I will.
People(including Profs) who believe in UFO’s are essentially on the fringe. This isn’t so with the Kennedy assasination.
Olly North should be locked up in prison with thr rest of those crimminals who were involved in Iran-Contra affair and the brutal war in Nicuragua. He’s a patriot my ass!
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
And Yah, I’m talking about Olly North. I’ll take all the Olly’s you got, and my army will whip your army any day. He’s a patriot and a leader and can play on my team any time he asks.[/quote]
A great many of his brother officers consider that Oliver North violated his own oath of allegiance to the Constitution of the United States. They figure he’s on a different team than they’re on.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Ummmm… I didn’t write a response about Oct. Surprise because I didn’t have the time so I really didn’t think it would be all that difficult to google it. If you really want to talk about it I will.
People(including Profs) who believe in UFO’s are essentially on the fringe. This isn’t so with the Kennedy assasination.[/quote]
I do want to discuss the above. Your original post made no such mention of time constraints, I thought you were just blowing me off–sorry.
I still like Olly North–sorry. I’ll agree he’s no angel, but I stand by my assertion that I’d take him on my team any day. i think most of those who would say he deserves prison would be those politically correct people worried about their own ascention through the ranks.
Now to what this post was going to be about originally.
How about the nobleness(sp) of Mark Felt. Just out today–he signs a book and movie deal to discuss his role as Deep Throat and the impact it had on America politics. Looks like he maybe was interested in the fame at the end. Does this lessen the high moral pedastal that some wanted to place him on? Does this have any revisioinst value wrt his actions at the time? Is he simply cashing in on what others would have anyways? Is it his daughter and family who have more say than he at his advanced age?
sasquatch:
As far as Deep Throat is concerned I never put him on a pedastal. I’m glad that Nixon went down for the sake of justice. Felt certainly was no angel. He did go to prison in relation to his “duties” to break the Constituion under command of COINTELPRO. Reagan pardoned him for just “doin his job”. I would think that his transgressions in COINTELPRO were worse than that of Watergate.
I guess one would like to have Olly on his team if it includes lying to Congress, the American public, helping to wage a unnecessary war in Latin America, breaking laws and…on and on. I assume you say those positive things about North because you ahve no idea what he was involved in back in the 80’s except what the American press has stated. In which case you only know mostly propraganda.
October Surprise was a CIA-generated scheme to corrupt the 1980 election in favor of the Reagan/Bush ticket. The election was rather close for awhile and those in the R/B camp were afraid of losing to Carter and certainly thought it was possible if he got the hostages freed before the election. To help ensure Carter’s defeat members of the reagan/Bush team met with Iranian officials to delay the release of the hostages until after the election to make Carter look weak and ineffectual.
They(Iranians) were promised $40 million plus all the weapons they could buy if they agreed. Suddenly the Iranians broke off their talks with Carter and that was essentially it for him. There is more to it than just what I’ve written but you get the gist of it.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
sasquatch:
As far as Deep Throat is concerned I never put him on a pedastal. I’m glad that Nixon went down for the sake of justice. Felt certainly was no angel. He did go to prison in relation to his “duties” to break the Constituion under command of COINTELPRO. Reagan pardoned him for just “doin his job”. I would think that his transgressions in COINTELPRO were worse than that of Watergate.
I guess one would like to have Olly on his team if it includes lying to Congress, the American public, helping to wage a unnecessary war in Latin America, breaking laws and…on and on. I assume you say those positive things about North because you ahve no idea what he was involved in back in the 80’s except what the American press has stated. In which case you only know mostly propraganda.
October Surprise was a CIA-generated scheme to corrupt the 1980 election in favor of the Reagan/Bush ticket. The election was rather close for awhile and those in the R/B camp were afraid of losing to Carter and certainly thought it was possible if he got the hostages freed before the election. To help ensure Carter’s defeat members of the reagan/Bush team met with Iranian officials to delay the release of the hostages until after the election to make Carter look weak and ineffectual.
They(Iranians) were promised $40 million plus all the weapons they could buy if they agreed. Suddenly the Iranians broke off their talks with Carter and that was essentially it for him. There is more to it than just what I’ve written but you get the gist of it. [/quote]
Interesting how you assume that because I’d want him on my team I don’t know much about him or his transgressions. Quite honestly that is exactly why I’d want him on my team. Not directly for those actions–but for his willingness to get the job done-PER instructions. Or did you assume that he decided to do these things on his own. I know you’re gonna go off on this, but the bottom line is for the sake of war and national security, things need to get done, shall we say. You probably don’t agree or see this as so, but dirty jobs need to get done and, again, Olly followed his orders and got the job done.
Enough about him. Somewhat insignificant in the scope.
Explain to me why the CIA wanted Reagan instead of Carter? I knew of this supposed operation, though didn’t know the lingo. I’ve never seen it as more than a possibility as opposed to gospel.
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
sasquatch:
As far as Deep Throat is concerned I never put him on a pedastal. I’m glad that Nixon went down for the sake of justice. Felt certainly was no angel. He did go to prison in relation to his “duties” to break the Constituion under command of COINTELPRO. Reagan pardoned him for just “doin his job”. I would think that his transgressions in COINTELPRO were worse than that of Watergate.
I guess one would like to have Olly on his team if it includes lying to Congress, the American public, helping to wage a unnecessary war in Latin America, breaking laws and…on and on. I assume you say those positive things about North because you ahve no idea what he was involved in back in the 80’s except what the American press has stated. In which case you only know mostly propraganda.
October Surprise was a CIA-generated scheme to corrupt the 1980 election in favor of the Reagan/Bush ticket. The election was rather close for awhile and those in the R/B camp were afraid of losing to Carter and certainly thought it was possible if he got the hostages freed before the election. To help ensure Carter’s defeat members of the reagan/Bush team met with Iranian officials to delay the release of the hostages until after the election to make Carter look weak and ineffectual.
They(Iranians) were promised $40 million plus all the weapons they could buy if they agreed. Suddenly the Iranians broke off their talks with Carter and that was essentially it for him. There is more to it than just what I’ve written but you get the gist of it.
Interesting how you assume that because I’d want him on my team I don’t know much about him or his transgressions. Quite honestly that is exactly why I’d want him on my team. Not directly for those actions–but for his willingness to get the job done-PER instructions. Or did you assume that he decided to do these things on his own. I know you’re gonna go off on this, but the bottom line is for the sake of war and national security, things need to get done, shall we say. You probably don’t agree or see this as so, but dirty jobs need to get done and, again, Olly followed his orders and got the job done.
Enough about him. Somewhat insignificant in the scope.
Explain to me why the CIA wanted Reagan instead of Carter? I knew of this supposed operation, though didn’t know the lingo. I’ve never seen it as more than a possibility as opposed to gospel.[/quote]
Yes of course Olly was following instructions but don’t the outcome of his actions count? If someone higher up in the chain of command told Olly to dismember a baby and rape the women of the enemy your logic says it’s okay because he’s just following orders. Nonsense! Also using your reasoning, what Felt did while working for COINTELPRO was just a-okay because he was following orders even if he was breaking the Constitution.
I’d be weary of the cloak of “national security”. It’s used to justify just about everything that the government knows the public would be dead set against. It’s mostly a ruse. Just like the war against Iraq.
Carter issued what was known as the October Massacre. He fired Bush Sr. as the CIA director along with 700 operatives. The CIA desperately wanted someone who could put them back in the covert-ops business. The Reagan/Bush team were all too happy to make it happen.
[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
…
Carter issued what was known as the October Massacre. He fired Bush Sr. as the CIA director along with 700 operatives. The CIA desperately wanted someone who could put them back in the covert-ops business. The Reagan/Bush team were all too happy to make it happen.[/quote]
We are still paying the price for the Democrats gutting the CIA.
Would 9/11 have happened if the CIA wasn’t gutted by Carter and Congress?
Would we have invaded Iraq?
What does this have to do with Deep Throat?
Thanks for the reasoning behind Carter/Reagan.
I take offense to your analogy above though. obviously we are talking apples and oranges there. I would not condone that, and neither would most anybody else. You can extrapolate any situation to the extreme and bizarre to counter taking orders, but let’s stick with the actual ‘crimes’ having taken place. And I have no problem with what Felt did as an agent of the FBI to the weather underground. I knoe, I know, I’m a bad person because this doesn’t bother me that much. But I have said before and i’ll say again the world ain’t perfect and we don’t live in some fairy tale book. You call it the ‘cloak’ of national security, I call it national security. It may be overused, yes. I don’t believe that means it is never justified.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Zeppelin795 wrote:
…
Carter issued what was known as the October Massacre. He fired Bush Sr. as the CIA director along with 700 operatives. The CIA desperately wanted someone who could put them back in the covert-ops business. The Reagan/Bush team were all too happy to make it happen.
We are still paying the price for the Democrats gutting the CIA.
Would 9/11 have happened if the CIA wasn’t gutted by Carter and Congress?
Would we have invaded Iraq?
What does this have to do with Deep Throat?[/quote]
In reference to the CIA it’s a conversation between sasquatch and I.
You’re really reaching with the “gutting of the CIA”. The corruption in the CIA is endemic and that has far more to do with 9/11 than Carter’s firing of operatives. The CIA causes far more harm than good.
The CIA was against this invasion if I remember correctly and they did predict the increase of terroristic actions due to the invasion. They also predicted correctly(not to hard) that the recruitment into terrorist organizations would flourish. And it has.
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Thanks for the reasoning behind Carter/Reagan.
I take offense to your analogy above though. obviously we are talking apples and oranges there. I would not condone that, and neither would most anybody else. You can extrapolate any situation to the extreme and bizarre to counter taking orders, but let’s stick with the actual ‘crimes’ having taken place. And I have no problem with what Felt did as an agent of the FBI to the weather underground. I knoe, I know, I’m a bad person because this doesn’t bother me that much. But I have said before and i’ll say again the world ain’t perfect and we don’t live in some fairy tale book. You call it the ‘cloak’ of national security, I call it national security. It may be overused, yes. I don’t believe that means it is never justified.[/quote]
Your point is well taken but I’m not sure I see a huge difference between what I used as an example and what North was involved in. His actions helped to bring about the deaths of many innocent people by helping to wage a unnecessary war in Latin America. He made a pretty penny along with many others for seeling arms illegally behind the backs of most of the Congress. Have you ever heard of the drug smuggling operations that came out of the Nicuraguan War? The cost in lives were enormous.