I was given some advice recently from someone whose opinion I normally trust, but the advice given is opposite of what I’ve normally done so I wanted to get some opinions.
I competed a few weeks ago and am now reverse-dieting into the off-season mass gain phase. For this next phase I was asked to stop taking Test altogether and instead take a moderate amount of Deca per week along with a daily dose of GH. This struck me as odd because somewhere along the way I got the idea in my head that every cycle should have Test as the base. Has anyone else done or heard of a protocol like this?
That’s an old school cycle right there. It was done for a lot of years and guys got great results. But… you don’t need to go that route anymore because test is cheap and plentiful. Now, if you’re the kind of guy who reacts badly to test then a nandrolone-based cycle is an option. Otherwise you may be asking for trouble.
Now here’s the OJ Simpson version of “How I would do it”
Deca as your base at a high enough dose that you’re getting serious mass and that it is worth the risk(s). Then add in masteron for the benefits of DHT. Part of the danger of nandrolone comes from conversion to DHN which some speculate is what causes deca dick. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but smarter people than me have made a compelling case. Anyway, add in some low dose dbol for the added benefit of increased e2 (and as a sort of testosterone-like proxy) and you’ve got a modern version of an old style cycle. (Old versions would have primo instead of mast, but primo is crazy expensive by comparison)
Anyway, yeah, that’s how you’d do. I don’t think I would advise it, but it’s been done before and will be done again.
Can you ask your friend for a detailed reason as to why you should stop the test. What benefits you get from stopping it and what negatives you will get if you don’t stop it.
Iron touched on this but I feel the need to state and ask this directly.
This as stated has old school written all over it. By any chance is your trusted friend an old head? Like pretty much anyone around forty and older, depending on when they started in this could be considered an old head and thus running cycles from the old school. The other one is it’s very possible your friend learned from an old school guy. Nothing specifically wrong with any of it you should just be aware of where your advice is coming from. Just be aware we are learning new stuff every day and I would be hesitant to run just deca heck I won’t even run it by i will use NPP. Just too many horror stories. Of course then there are the huge chunk of the population that tolerates deca just fine and has no issues with it alone or in a stack. If you have never used deca or npp then using just deca without any other hormone is a significant choice.
Similarly to what many have said, deca only was a staple old school cycle for mass gains in the off season… that or deca/dbol (very famous stack), in theory, this would work very efficiently for mass provided the dose is high enough to ellict adequate amounts of aromatisation, in actual reality however… the answer is still yes… it’ll pack on lean mass very efficiently, esp if combined with GH, however the side effects for some may be intolerable given the lack of androgenicity, neurological sides and whatnot. Given the inherent cardiotoxicity of nand + the far high predispensity for causing neurological abormalities/ psychological instability, I’d personally opt for something milder if we are contemplating long term use here.
I’d probably prefer high test alone (then again I’m not competing and never have).
@gear_and_taxes what doses did you have to delve into in order to compete. a few months ago I put off the notion of competing permanently after looking on various forms and seeing the sheer doses people use to compete in minor levels. However I’m going back to bodybuilding (not competitive) however putting more of an emphasis on bodybuilding once again following two weeks of partying/trying out the traditional “teenage” lifestyle… It’s very fun… at times (there were a few times due to my lack of social skills/ social anxiety where it downright sucked… but it’s a waste of time and the recovery (i.e feeling shit for a good day and a half after all is said and done) makes it seem not worth it for me. I could understand going for a (very) good time on occasion, however the frequency of which these kids manage to continually destroy themselves is beyond me. Furthermore I couldn’t help but continually regret the decisions I was making… as in “I feel good, VERY good, but I’m clearly killing myself here. I’d rather kill myself over something more productive”.
Post appifiny I’m probably going to abandon going on schoolies entirely… I’m partied out, I don’t regret this though, it was an experience/experiment I feel I needed to partake in to kill lingering curiosity. I’ll still frequent concerts though when my favourite bands stop through, I love music.
Are you particularly prone to androgenic and/or estrogenic side effects (wondering as to why such a recommendation would be given.)
I think @iron_yuppie hit the nail on the head. I personally wouldn’t use deca, NPP instead. I’m currently on a stack without test incorporating NPP with Mast and low dose Dbol. I would keep the Dbol low as iron suggested, it aromatises heavily and since you wont be using an AI, be careful with gyno. I have started developing lumps at 30mg/d so I will bring it down to 20mg/d.
Compared to a test blast, I feel so much better and more “stable”. I don’t have the typical alpha male douchey feeling that comes with Test, just a calm controlled disposition. Joints feel great, erections are so hard they’re painful and libido is very high, but manageable (I prefer this to the uncontrollable test libido). Strength is also through the roof and appetite is good (very important but overlooked aspect when on AAS).
I appreciate the thoughtful replies from everyone here. Truthfully I feel better now than I did before, and I will ask him his reasoning and will share here.
He is a non-practicing MD who now does bodybuilding coaching full-time (cool huh?). I hired him after this last show because I wanted to try something new vs what I was doing with the prior coach. Anyway, this all might be TMI. Bottom line is he’s more qualified than the average dude in the gym, and I am appreciative of the replies here on T-Nation.
Will probably just get worse. I think that’s why a lot of bodybuilders end up on opiate pain medications they don’t talk about it a lot but being someone who has used these drugs I know damn well rich and Lee were fucked up on them in some of those videos they made. And I’m sure plenty others.
I wonder whether Lee Priest lied about his dosages. I assume there’s no way he could’ve gotten to Mr Olympia on 1g/wk (or less). He could have some type of genetic mutation, Flex Wheeler has been demonstrated to have a mutation in regard to myostatin regulation.
I can’t take opiates, they make me pass out and/or throw up (in therapeutic dosages)… I was actually on them (after TRT) via prescription for a good 3 months round the clock, multiple times per day (I assume after TRT as opiate induced hypogonadism wasn’t a risk). Worst experience with opiates ever was when I took codeine at age 15 (broken ankle prior to surgery). I’m a cyp2d6 hypermetaboliser (enzyme of which codeine converts to morphine) right… so 1 hr after taking it in the doctors office I start feeling nauseous and clammy. The doc is talking about the surgical procedure I’m going to require (and asking me if I’ve broken my ankle before as my growth plates are strangely fused at a young age lololol). I start saying “I don’t feel right”, and my aunt is like “you’re having a panic attack, you’re just nervous, you’ll be fine” and my father says “stop acting dammit, you’re fine, sit up straight etc.”
So thirty seconds later I’m in such severe pain I lose consciousness, wake up and throw up copiously (projectile), feeling like my ribs are about to break…!!! No… I wasn’t fine, nor was I acting lol… bile duct spasm wooooot
Ofcourse. I almsot feel insulted when he trys to go on his rants about how little gear he took. I’m not saying an impressive physique is not possible with small doses and yearsssss of training but no one wins Olympia with an impressive physique. Genetic mutation or not that type of body takes big doses and the ability to handle big doses (of course wirh a shit ton of hard work) it also helps I think that he’s a rather short fella. But is whole less then a gram a week crap is bullshit. More like a couple grams a week bunch of insulin and 10+ ius of growth per day.
Well i guess that’s sort of a blessing and a curse. Good in the sense you don’t have to worry much about getting strung out on them bad in the sense that later in life if the pain gets to bad your gonna be shit out of luck.
Not all opiates convert most of them don’t actually most of the synthetic ones shouldn’t be an issue. Throwing up and nodding out are common side effects along with constipation, itchyness, dependency, bone issues etc usually the dose just needs to be regulated or the drug switched. But that’s irrelevant right now i always tell people deal with pain until you absolutely can’t before taking opiates. I deal with a nice bit of back pain I know a couple oxys would take care of but I don’t even wanna go back down that path. I’d rather feel daily pain and know I’m alive then feel numb 24/7 merely existing in a drug induced stupor.
I’m talking about codeine though, codeine is metabolised to morphine primarily via cyp2d6. Bile duct spasm is a known complication of codeine use.
Oxy’s are not a drug to mess with, the addictive/dependence forming potential is extreme. I was close with someone who got hooked on them and switched to heroin. VERY sad, clean now but said persons life is fuuuuuccckkked now.
Have you tried cannabis to deal with pain? Aside from the potentially permanent cognitive deficits it can cause from prolonged use it appears to be good for pain and relatively side effect free aside from the potential for cannabinoid hyperemisis syndrome, psychosis in those predisposed etc (though the verdict regarding cardiovascular toxicity is out)… actually it isn’t side effect free at all, better than opiates though XD
I understand I was just stating not all are derived from morphine like fentanyl and methadone I believe are 100% synthetic and should not metabolize into morphine for future options of pain relief if you might need them. But I’m sure you probably already know this.
It never did anything back in the day. But then again I was a heavy opiate user so ofcourse when your body is used to something that strong nothing else would even work. Now that my body is cleaned and refreshed so to speak I’m amazed at the pain relief I get from Tylenol or ibuprofen for common things altho I try to stay away from those as well for obvious reasons. So no I haven’t tried cannabis recently iv considered dabbling in cbd for pain and I probably will sometime soon there seems to be more and more promising testimonials coming out daily. Altho my cynical side make me wonder how many of these people are just hippy idiots who have no idea what pain really is and are trying to promote thier own agenda. Using thc doesn’t really appeal to me for the simple reason I enjoy a clear mind for most of my day. A joint at night sounds appealing sometimes but I couldn’t imagine smoking during the day especially having a newborn now.
Were you hooked on opiates related to pain relief or recreational use? No judgement either way. I was interestingly able to quit them cold turkey without withdrawal symptoms when I’d had enough
Started from a accident real young. This lead to addiction which lead to heroin which lead to selling heroin which lead to benzos which lead to benzos mixed with heorin thru all this I manged to start to gamble and using cocaine and drinking liquor because when your in that life making tons of money you want to spend it stupidly. so then it was just a major shit show of using and selling a lot of drugs while spending too much time in the casino drinking free liquor. Ultimately this lead to federal prison where I had an epiphany of sorts and decided to change my life. Fast forward years later and life has never been better. Happily married, financially successful, kid, etc all the good shit.
Cold turkey is how I did it but had major withdrawal along with seizures from the benzo withdrawal. I don’t regret a thing tho the experience and knowledge I gained is priceless along with the mental fortitude. and will hopefully be able to pass it down to my son to not repeat my path which is especially concerning with the opiate epidemic that’s taken my country by the balls.
@unreal24278@zeek1414
I think many of the major bodybuilders back in the day were shooting nubain IM for pain relief which eventually turned into life relief. It’s a pain killer used during child birth and other surgery. Works really well until you get addicted
I wouldn’t ever do low test high deca, I just wouldnt use deca at all. But I’m currently on no test NPP/Tren with Dbol and havent had any issues in regards to sexual function.
That’s what most user experience suggests, adding test to 19-nors causes more sides. I’ve not used test with NPP so I cannot comment on that but have used test and deca years ago and got the dreaded deca dick. Now I’m 3 weeks into NPP and I’m fine. @cts.jake