With my first cycle I ran test enanthate for 10 weeks at 500 mg/wk and D-bol for the first six weeks at 50 mg ED. I loved the effect of the D-bol giving me a great pump and strength boost, but man I blew up too much. I put on fat easily (former fat ass) and gained way too much fat and water on this cycle.
For my second cycle I’m running test prop at 100 mg EOD and Winstrol tabs at 50 mg ED plus Nolvadex at 20 mg ED. Other “cutting” steroids are not available in my part of the world, so I’m using what’s here. I’m going to keep the cycle down to only six weeks.
I would LOVE to still run D-bol on my second cycle because of the nice results I got with it but I’m concerned about fat gain and water bloating. Do you think the Nolvadex would keep the D-bol in check? I’m thinking of running 5 mg a couple hours pre-workout and 5 to 10 mg right after my workouts. I’ve got plenty of 5 mg tabs on hand. I think at this low dose maybe I’ll still get some decent protein retention for after my workouts and keep the estrogen side effects in check. Your thoughts?
Some AAS tend to make you hold more water than others but I’ve never heard about a steroid making you fat! If you gain too much fat buring a cycle your calorie intake is too high and/or you’re eating the wrong carbs at the wrong time.
How’s your diet now compared to the Test and D-bol cycle?
[quote]Mr. Moose wrote:
Some AAS tend to make you hold more water than others but I’ve never heard about a steroid making you fat! If you gain too much fat buring a cycle your calorie intake is too high and/or you’re eating the wrong carbs at the wrong time.
How’s your diet now compared to the Test and D-bol cycle?[/quote]
Exactly. Steroids can help you gain muscle, but only if you work out right and eat enough. But gaining fat… unless there was a lot of estrogen in your body, this couldn’t really be anything the steroids did. Too many calories cause you to become fat.
In fact, Dbol may cause you to hold water if you’re not using an anti-e or aromatase inhibitor along with it, but there are compelling reasons why Dbol could actually help you lose body fat.
Dbol is a potent glucocorticoid receptor antagonist, therefore it greatly reduces cortisol levels. Cortisol causes increases in LPL (lipoprotein lipase). Now, LPL induces lipid deposition. So, Dbol can make it more difficult for your body to deposit fat.
How’s your diet now compared to the Test and D-bol cycle?[/quote]
I did a typical bulking cycle consuming about 4,000 calories per day. My normal maintenance diet which I’m on now is about 2,500 cal/day of clean eating. I assume the high estrogen from the T and D-bol along with the higher calories are what blew me up. I don’t know if the estrogen is really going to make you get fat directly but it sure didn’t seem to help with fat deposition.
What I want to do with my next cycle is only up the calories to 3,000/day and run steroids that are less likely to cause bloat and high E while also running an anti-E (Nolvadex). I’m hoping to put on some moderate mass without the fat or water gain. Basically a bulking cycle with a focus on LEAN mass gains only.
So would a small dose of D-bol be helpful or non-harmful in this scenario?
If you’re prone to bloating try .5 mg ED of Arimidex; it’s very potent in its ability to prevent estrogen conversion, and it will keep you dry. I’m on a cutting cycle right now using testosterone (400 mg. EW), Dbol (15 mg. ED), and Boldenone (400 mg. EW). I’m running 1 mg. EOD of Arimidex, and I’m dry and bloat free.
Now I am pissed, I just blanked out my previous post. Anyway, What I was saying is that I seriously doubt you put on any appreciable fat. AAS’s are pretty forgiving regarding fat gain even with a somewhat crappy diet. D-bol does tend to cause alot of water weight gain and so does Enanthate. So he combo, make be causing water weight gain beyond what you are used to; I did a light,short of d-bol and felt like a water balloon, but I did make some nice gains. I am not a person who retains water typically. After I was done, I had some good piss sessions once it wore off and looked pretty good once the water was gone. The combo of d-bol and Enanthate may be folling you in to thinking you have gained fat because the water retetion is so severe. You probably won’t have the good piss sessions until the Enanthate is gone.
The E factor, as others have mentioned, is a possiblity given you self described propensity to gain fat. This indicates to may have accelerated E conversion mechanism in your body. I don’t really think so, but it is possible. The amounts your are taking really shouldn’t amotorize(sp?) all that much.
My recommendations to curb the side effects are pretty simple. I would consume some where in the neighborhood of 32 oz. or more of lemon or lime added to some typical black tea (unsweetened. It won’t fix it completely, but it will help. Also, per haps some Biotest M to curb any possible E conversion. I don’t think clomid, novaldex, etc. is necessary concidering your posted doses. And stay away from diuretics if you are gone, they are really bad for you.
I am not a big fan using other drugs to combat the side effects of the origional drugs unless necessary. It put undue stress on the body (which is another reason I don’t dig high dose, long cycles).
The bottom line to my long bloated post is this: a) I wouldn’t worry about the percieved fat gain, it should go away by way of your blatter. You won’t really know about the fat gain honestly until you cycle completely off the juice and your T levels return.
Sorry about the long post.
[quote]crowbar524 wrote:
If you’re prone to bloating try .5 mg ED of Arimidex; it’s very potent in its ability to prevent estrogen conversion, and it will keep you dry.
Crowbar[/quote]
Yeah I hear you bro. If I was on a serious cutting cycle I would go that route. I’m lucky in that I can get Arimidex from a pharmacy in Hong Kong without a prescription (along with test, deca, Proscar, and Nolvadex!). But Arimidex is really expensive - around $100+ for enough for a cycle while the Nolvadex is only $30 for enough for a cycle. I don’t tend to have any gyno problems so I’ll just run the Nolvadex for now to keep the water bloating down and to save some cash. If my next cycle is a cutter though I’ll take your recommendation and go the Arimidex route to really kill any extra E in my system.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
The combo of d-bol and Enanthate may be folling you in to thinking you have gained fat because the water retetion is so severe.
Also, per haps some Biotest M to curb any possible E conversion. I don’t think clomid, novaldex, etc. is necessary concidering your posted doses.
[/quote]
Thanks for the input. Yeah I definitely retained a lot of water - had the fat “moon face” going and all. But it’s been two months since my last cycle ended and I’m done with PCT. I definitely put on a few pounds of fat, more than what I would like. I think the typical “bulking” diet is just too much for me and my body’s normal tendency to store fat. So even a moderate bulking diet of 4,000 cal/day porked me out quickly.
As for the Nolvadex… well I’m an American working and living in China. It’s really difficult here to get any Biotest products or anything beyond protein and creatine (which I have to go to Hong Kong for). But non-addictive prescription drugs are easy to get! Crazy huh?
Any way, thanks everyone for your input. I’m going to go ahead with my next cycle as planned, run Nolvadex throughout and add in a little D-bol around my workouts. I won’t worry about the drugs and water gain so much but instead I’ll focus more on my diet. I’ll try to keep my calories just a little higher than normal (+500 cal/day) and continue to eat super clean. Hopefully that will keep the fat gain low.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
If I ever end up going to China i’ll look you up, where are you Bejing?[/quote]
I’m in the south of China near Guangzhou (Canton). It’s not as culturally appealing as Beijing. Mostly just lots and lots of industry/factories. People only come here for business or for the whores…
O.k, another resident genius here who can’t even spell. The short of it is I disagree with pretty much everything this post said. Bottom line is you need at least nolva, during your cycle, And regardless of what steroids you do, The amount of water you retain, and fat that you put on, is more a direct cause of the calories you intake. Keep your fat intake low, and your carb intake low, and you will be just fine.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Now I am pissed, I just blanked out my previous post. Anyway, What I was saying is that I seriously doubt you put on any appreciable fat. AAS’s are pretty forgiving regarding fat gain even with a somewhat crappy diet. D-bol does tend to cause alot of water weight gain and so does Enanthate. So he combo, make be causing water weight gain beyond what you are used to; I did a light,short of d-bol and felt like a water balloon, but I did make some nice gains. I am not a person who retains water typically. After I was done, I had some good piss sessions once it wore off and looked pretty good once the water was gone. The combo of d-bol and Enanthate may be folling you in to thinking you have gained fat because the water retetion is so severe. You probably won’t have the good piss sessions until the Enanthate is gone.
The E factor, as others have mentioned, is a possiblity given you self described propensity to gain fat. This indicates to may have accelerated E conversion mechanism in your body. I don’t really think so, but it is possible. The amounts your are taking really shouldn’t amotorize(sp?) all that much.
My recommendations to curb the side effects are pretty simple. I would consume some where in the neighborhood of 32 oz. or more of lemon or lime added to some typical black tea (unsweetened. It won’t fix it completely, but it will help. Also, per haps some Biotest M to curb any possible E conversion. I don’t think clomid, novaldex, etc. is necessary concidering your posted doses. And stay away from diuretics if you are gone, they are really bad for you.
I am not a big fan using other drugs to combat the side effects of the origional drugs unless necessary. It put undue stress on the body (which is another reason I don’t dig high dose, long cycles).
The bottom line to my long bloated post is this: a) I wouldn’t worry about the percieved fat gain, it should go away by way of your blatter. You won’t really know about the fat gain honestly until you cycle completely off the juice and your T levels return.
Sorry about the long post.
You have the right to disagree with my post and you have the right to insult me, but I think listing the points you disagree with and discussing them would be more beneficial and we both may learn something.
I think AE’s are over used. Up to a certain amount of dosing they are just simply unnecessary. AE’s do have side effects too, nasty ones; why would you want to put more stress on your body unless you really need? Counteracting drugs with other drugs should only be done when truly necessary and for short periods of time. With the recent onset of high quality OTC supplements, restoring T levels isn’t the problem it once was. You don’t have to mix together HCG and feel sick all the time to get your test levels back.
Recomending use of nutritional supplements in place of ancillary medication is irresponsible. Nutritional supplements and Steroids do not mix. ‘Vitex’ is not going to prevent a case of gyno. And Tribulis isn’t nearly as effective as nolvadex for pct.
I question your knowledge and experience in these areas. I question whether you in fact work for a supplement company for that matter, as it is the only reason I can see for you making those ‘recomendations’.
You give advice to someone who is trying to reduce their bodyfat %, by recomending what ‘ancillary supplementation’ they should be using, instead of the obvious - what their diet is like.
Bottom line is you are spreading misinformation here, and I am putting a stop to it.
