But I have seen a lot of those programs out there and that is why I am giving it a shot because there must be something to it if it works for so many people.
It simply isnāt true. Yes, to develop maximal strength you need to periodically work around the 85 per cent mark. Maybe once a month for a few sets. Any more and the recovery burden becomes too high.
So the majority of the time doing the main lifts is spent in the 50 to 80 per cent window practising technique and accumulating fatigue. The vast majority of actual work (around 65 to 80 per cent of total work) is assistance to build muscle.
That seems to be what I am seeing in a lot of powerlifting programs. I assume a lot of the disconnect is because a lot of research studies are performed on untrained lifters and not over a long period of time i.e. maybe a month or two.
Thanks for the info!
Youāve got it. Seems like youāre a pretty smart guy whoās actually prepared to use his brain.
There is, I understand, another aspect to the idea of 85 per cent and up being necessary. It comes from weightlifting, where there isnāt really much of a lowering phase to any of the lifts and this in turn - unless I misunderstood what I read - makes them less taxing than a lift with both a raising and lowering component. If you think about it, it does make sense. I know the deadlift is probably the most taxing lift on recovery - which has no real lowering phase unless you make it so that seems contradictory - but when we train the deadlift we train it to improve our deadlift, so we push the weights higher more often than a weightlifter will on the deadlift, and we also deadlift more often anyway. A weightlifter arguably performs many deadlifts each time they pick a weight up, but relative to their maximal deadlift they are very light.
Pendlay (RIP) wrote something about his findings regarding this; programs (such as those based around weightlifting) with a concentric-heavy focus has the ability to let the athlete train more frequently with less burn out. I think Thibs also wrote something regarding that too, specifically about using sleds for leg training.
But as the majority of us are not weightlifters, yeah, training at a high(er) intensity most of the time will burn you out quickly.
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Yeah, definitely something to think about and not the first time I have heard that eccentric portions of lifts are more taxing. Thanks again for the info guys.
Iām curious though Mark, what are your thoughts on programs that advocate frequent maximal work such as the Bulgarian method and conjugate method. Surely many people have seen plenty of results with both of those systems. I know drugs are frequently purported to be a big factor here but I know not everyone on here who uses conjugate is on drugs and Iām sure the same can be said fo the Bulgarian method.
They tend not to compare well with submax systems in most cases.
The Bulgarian method as far I remember relied on a large pool of lifters to pull from, with the majority being weeded out with injuries. The ones who succeeded were either genetic outliers (like a lot of champions) or lucky. Iām fairly sure Abadjiev had the attitude that if he broke a lifter, it wasnāt an issue because he had plenty more. There is also the matter of it being developed for weightlifting rather than powerlifting. A similar approach in powerlifting in terms of frequency would be Sheikhoās, although that is almost the archetypal submax system.
Conjugate is an interesting one. Here Iām going to call on @corstijeir to call out any errors I make, as he uses this method himself with rather respectable results.
First of, the vast majority of the actual work is assistance (the Westside page actually posted about this not long ago). Actual max effort work takes up very little of the total volume, I understand combined with dynamic effort work is takes up around 20 per cent of total volume. This has a massive impact on the burden it places on recovery.
Secondly, the movements used for max effort work are rotated anywhere between one and three weeks. This means youāre not doing the same max effort weight or movement for more than, at most, three weeks. Because some movements will necessarily require much less weight than the main lift, this means a fair portion of your max effort work will be done with a lot less weight than what you would need for the main lift.
Thirdly, a lot of the successful users of conjugate complete in multiply. While the weights are heavier, the equipment does protect the body much more; and, because a lot of the time max effort work isnāt done in full gear or is done over a shorter range of motion, either less weight is used (for less gear) or the weight is moved over a shorter distance. It is worth noting that Louie also has mentioned that Chuck V may well have achieved even greater things had he not pushed so hard in terms of max effort training.
There is also the matter of accommodating resistance used in max effort work, which means that the load isnāt constant throughout the movement. While bands are known to place significant stress on the joints and are therefore used sparingly, chains are much more recoverable. This will also mean that overall, the load placed on the body is reduced.
Assuming all those requirements are met, there is no barrier to a raw lifter using the conjugate method successfully. However, it appears that there are relatively few who manage to do this.
One thing my coach mentions (who trained at Westside for some time and held or holds a number of all time world records) is that the demands on the lifter between raw and equipped are different. Specifically, raw lifters require more muscle as a general rule, as muscle does not only provide strength but can also provide protection to the joints (in the absence of equipment this becomes a significant factor). Another thing he mentions is that the conjugate method was developed at a time when Westside was home to just about the best and most savagely committed lifters imaginable. This alone will make it difficult to implement the method successfully using much less insane people; significant changes would need to be made to account for the fact that the majority of trainees do not take the view that death in their mid 30s, living in their car and being exposed to intense psychological and physical pressure on a daily basis is an acceptable tradeoff for athletic success.
There are, in fact, many aspects of conjugate training that are used by a lot of the successful submaximal systems. One is the use of short rests between sets to simulate maximal effort. It is a much safer way to force a lifter to strain than loading maximal weight (my coach uses this, as does Josh Bryant I believe, and I also suspect 5th Set may do as well). Another is the use of variations of the main lift to attack weaknesses by changing stance, grip width, ROM, etc. These are what I believe can be referred to as special exercises, or simply supplemental exercises. Yet another is to challenge the lifter to complete a total number of reps at a higher percentage in as few sets as possible (apart from my coach I donāt know who else does this), where the load is kept around the 85 per cent mark. For this particular method, it is used sparingly (around once every four weeks).
All told this generally means that while the conjugate method can be used successfully, it tends to work better when the following condition is met: that it is implemented by someone with a deep understanding of the method (outside Westside, EliteFTS and Ludus Magnus there are few such people). This will mean the required adaptations are made to accommodate the lack of equipment and the individual lifterās strengths and weaknesses.
Sorry, this turned out really long. Iām running a fever and took some decent painkillers to boot.
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Looks great.
Conjugate works great for raw lifters who understand their weaknesses and recovery.
You can find plenty of generalize templates that can work really well.
5th set is amazing and if I ever decide to do a pure raw cycle, Iāll probably run it to see how it goes. Iāve done Conjugate raw and it worked really well.
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No, definitely a good read and a lot of good points. The only thing I donāt agree with is your second point, and I have heard this from others, that using lift variations that require less weight seems to positively affect recovery. It sounds good on the surface, but from a physics standpoint most of the lighter weight lift variations are lighter because the lift mechanics are different, but this doesnāt necessarily mean that force produced by the muscles involved is less. So how would this affect recovery?
It sucks that you are sick. I hope you feel well soon.
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In powerlifting itās rarely ( in my experience especially with conjugate ) that your muscles are whatās not recovered, itās your CNS, joints and accumulative fatigue.
For example if I squat 750 this coming Monday, the following week if I did front squats and end up doing like 365 while 365 is hard and heavy it doesnāt tax your system the same as a 750 squat.
Also thereās no direct spinal loading so it allows for extra recovery on the spine. Itās not super wide so my hips get a break, etc.
90-100% against bands fatigues totally different than 90-100% against chains even if the weight at the top with the chains is more than the weight at the top with the bands. ( within reason anyhow )
For bench it would be using a swiss bar , the instability leads to less weight. While sure the muscles work hard itās a different āhardā than if it was a power bar with plates.
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Yes, joints and cumulative especially. Thatās the killer. I have rarely found my muscles unable to do something, but sure as shit have found my joints unable or my nerves unable to get my muscles to work.
Ok makes sense.
Got rained out yesterday and because of scheduling, tomorrow will be squat day and Monday will be bench day for the first week. After that it will be Monday and Tuesday, respectively. So pretty much no workout for 5 days or so sadly. Excited to see how bbb goes though.
27 October 2019
Squats
5x 190 lb
5 x 220 lb
5 x 250 lb
5 sets x 10 reps x 190 lb
Superset
Pullups
5 sets x 5 reps x BW +15 lb
With
Pushups
5 sets x 20 reps
Finished the first three sets in 10 min rested around 5 min so my wife could catch her breath and then finished the next 5 sets in 20 min.
So, this was a lot tougher for my wife and I than I originally expected. I have done 3 sets of 10 before with a lot higher of a percentage than this but the 3 sets of five, the two extra sets of 10, and the time constraint made all the difference. The pump in my legs and lower back was real. Excited to see how this pans out. Definitely going to be tough once I hit 5x10 for 75% of my tm. @tlgains I can see why you had a hard time with this.
yhe only thing I donāt agree with on this program is doing upper body work two days in a row. I guess I will see how it works though. It is only pushups and pullups.
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Hey man in for your log, looks like thereās some good lifting in here.
Talking about weight and what weights you should use, Try to read this article
Iāve been lifting very submaximal weights since summer and have never felt better.
Iām all in for Jims work, thatās really great stuff.
Thanks man! Just read this a couple of days ago actually and it was very eye opening. Definitely giving submaximal work a fair shot.
28 October 2019
Bench
8 sets x 1 rep x 250 lb
60 seconds rest
Bench grip rows
5 sets x 10 reps x 155 lb
Bb curls
8, 8, 4 x 65 lb
Bulgarian split squat
3 sets x 10 reps x BW
Planks
3 sets x 45 sec
25 sec
60 sec rest
Triceps, lats , and legs were pretty sore. I donāt think it affected bench too much though. I decided to try rows at bench grip instead of deadlift grip. A little weaker at that distance but I like them. Good session overall. Hopefully this gives me good gains on the bench.
I second this, training submaximally has lead to most of my strength increases over the past few years. It also helped me not get injured as frequently as I was before lol
How are you liking training bench with singles cstan?
@kuda
I like it a lot. The program is something I have seen good progress with in the past and I am hoping it will work for bench. It only got a little tougher on the last set but as the rest goes down Iām sure more of the later sets will become tough.
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First session looked like hell