Critique of The Critic

Off Topic
41

[quote]TC wrote:
I guarantee you, if you sat down with (or trained with) any of them, you’d be hugely impressed and become a devotee.
[/quote]

Truth is, it’s now CW’s workouts that “irk” me. It’s his dogmatism. He reminds me a lot of Mike Mentzer. “Total body is the ONLY way to gain massive muscle. Anyone who uses another program and gets success is on steriods!”

Mentzer was rightly lampooned in the “interview” with him that appeared on this very site. Now, I’d bet you’d be the first to admit that HIT has some value. It’s Mentzer’s One True Way of presenting HIT that irked you, me, and just about every other thinking person.

So if CW simply said, “I’m the TBT guy. I’ve had a lot of luck with these programs, though lots of other guys think there are better ways. Heck, there are quite a few natural big guys out there who use a split-based program,” few of the people here who’ve been around for a while would get so annoyed.

Hell, I’ll bet if you pulled order histories, the guys most annoyed by CW are the ones with the most history with Biotest/T-Nation. My history with you guys goes back to 1998. We’ve seen gurus come and go. We cried when Dan Duchaine and Mel Siff died. We saw Lyle McDonald go from a frequent poster to the lowcarb-l to an all-star in the business. We’ve been in enough gyms to know that there is no One True Way.

So once CW decides to stop channeling Mentzer, I imagine the “critics” will be silenced.

42

[quote]TC wrote:
CL, I gotta’ take issue with this.

My “super power” (other than being able to tell when meat is cooked just by lookin’ at it) is detecting ability in others.

I find coaches/trainers/writers based on their knowledge of training, and their ability to write has almost no bearing on whether there stuff appears on Testosterone.

We have editors. Good ones. They re-write stuff.

I remember when I first started getting “articles” from Poliquin. Some weren’t much more than notes scribbled on a cocktail napkin. (Okay, I exaggerate slightly, but not much).

My guys are all, without exception, brilliant.

I guarantee you, if you sat down with (or trained with) any of them, you’d be hugely impressed and become a devotee.

I spend a lot of time looking for talent, and it’s not easy. There aren’t that many really good guys out there, but I’m proud to have collected the best training minds in the universe.[/quote]

I’m not CL, but I have an opinion on this.

I agree with what your saying, as far as T-Nation is concerned. But when I pick up some of these lame ass bodybuilding rags it makes you wonder what it really takes to be a fitness writer.

As for your super power- I thought it was choosing really crappy hookers?

43

[quote]eengrms76 wrote:

As for your super power- I thought it was choosing really crappy hookers?[/quote]

Wait a minute, your sister, while not the best, really puts her heart and soul into the task at hand, so calling her “crappy” is way out of line!

(Har-har-har!)

44

[quote]TC wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:

I want my coach to be a trainer first, and a writer second. These days, it sees that here is what happens:

  1. Person writes articles.
  2. People assume person must speak with authority. (How else could he have been published?)
  3. Writer gets clients.

This new trend is certainly something worth criticizing! Of course, it’s not something I expect The “Critic” to address.

CL, I gotta’ take issue with this.

My “super power” (other than being able to tell when meat is cooked just by lookin’ at it) is detecting ability in others.

I find coaches/trainers/writers based on their knowledge of training, and their ability to write has almost no bearing on whether there stuff appears on Testosterone.

We have editors. Good ones. They re-write stuff.

I remember when I first started getting “articles” from Poliquin. Some weren’t much more than notes scribbled on a cocktail napkin. (Okay, I exaggerate slightly, but not much).

My guys are all, without exception, brilliant.

I guarantee you, if you sat down with (or trained with) any of them, you’d be hugely impressed and become a devotee.

I spend a lot of time looking for talent, and it’s not easy. There aren’t that many really good guys out there, but I’m proud to have collected the best training minds in the universe.

[/quote]

Oh nooo! I can’t stop myself…aaaggghh…then how do you explain Anthony Roberts??

45

[quote]TC wrote:
eengrms76 wrote:

As for your super power- I thought it was choosing really crappy hookers?

Wait a minute, your sister, while not the best, really puts her heart and soul into the task at hand, so calling her “crappy” is way out of line!

(Har-har-har!)

[/quote]

Oh snap! TC is insult master. That made me LOL considerably.

46

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
TC wrote:
I guarantee you, if you sat down with (or trained with) any of them, you’d be hugely impressed and become a devotee.

Truth is, it’s now CW’s workouts that “irk” me. It’s his dogmatism. He reminds me a lot of Mike Mentzer. “Total body is the ONLY way to gain massive muscle. Anyone who uses another program and gets success is on steriods!”

Mentzer was rightly lampooned in the “interview” with him that appeared on this very site. Now, I’d bet you’d be the first to admit that HIT has some value. It’s Mentzer’s One True Way of presenting HIT that irked you, me, and just about every other thinking person.

So if CW simply said, “I’m the TBT guy. I’ve had a lot of luck with these programs, though lots of other guys think there are better ways. Heck, there are quite a few natural big guys out there who use a split-based program,” few of the people here who’ve been around for a while would get so annoyed.

Hell, I’ll bet if you pulled order histories, the guys most annoyed by CW are the ones with the most history with Biotest/T-Nation. My history with you guys goes back to 1998. We’ve seen gurus come and go. We cried when Dan Duchaine and Mel Siff died. We saw Lyle McDonald go from a frequent poster to the lowcarb-l to an all-star in the business. We’ve been in enough gyms to know that there is no One True Way.

So once CW decides to stop channeling Mentzer, I imagine the “critics” will be silenced.[/quote]

Counselor, Chad is anything but dogmatic. Trust me.

Sweet. Good natured. Fun to talk to. Willing to hear the other guy’s opinion. Sews all his own clothes.

Really. Trust me. If he’s dogmatic in this particular interview, it’s because the format called for it.

And Mentzer? I knew Mentzer. I was a friend of Mentzer’s (briefly). Believe me, Chad is no Mentzer.

Mentzer was nuts!

One more thing: Lyle McDonald a “superstar”? Really?

I swear to God I didn’t even know he was still working in the business. I heard he had a blog or something with five guys on it, but that’s all I know.

If he’s that good, maybe he shold work here. Got any links you can PM me?

47

[quote]TC wrote:
One more thing: Lyle McDonald a “superstar”? Really?

I swear to God I didn’t even know he was still working in the business. I heard he had a blog or something with five guys on it, but that’s all I know.

If he’s that good, maybe he shold work here. Got any links you can PM me? [/quote]

He has his own little world, but he’s still in the industry: www.bodyrecomposition.com/

Also, Alwyn Cosgrove features him in “Strength and Conditioning Interrogations,” a handy little ebook.

I also liked Lyle. His low-carb book was excellent and I consider him second only to Duchaine on such matters.

Cosgrove mentions McDonald’s new book here (scroll down, as it’s a omnibus-type post):
alwyncosgrove.blogspot.com/2006/11/return-on-investment-stem-cells-ufc_22.html

48

I thought I’d repost part of what I posted in the Critic thread. I adapted it for this thread and yes I am lazy.

I know very few people outside of the T-Nation guys/girls that train using HFT and/or full body training for that matter.

These are guys that are jacked and strong (mostly drug free too). Most of the guys I see in gyms that aren’t progressing are that way becasue they smoke weed, drink, train with little intensity, eat like shit, and dont total enough cals to gain weight. Add to that list the curl, bench, crunch crowd. I have been in the non progressing crowd due to lack of intensity and low test.

It just seems like chad is on the war path to destroy split training.

49

[quote]TC wrote:
Counselor, Chad is anything but dogmatic. Trust me.

Sweet. Good natured. Fun to talk to. Willing to hear the other guy’s opinion. Sews all his own clothes.

Really. Trust me. If he’s dogmatic in this particular interview, it’s because the format called for it.

And Mentzer? I knew Mentzer. I was a friend of Mentzer’s (briefly). Believe me, Chad is no Mentzer.

Mentzer was nuts!

One more thing: Lyle McDonald a “superstar”? Really?

I swear to God I didn’t even know he was still working in the business. I heard he had a blog or something with five guys on it, but that’s all I know.

If he’s that good, maybe he shold work here. Got any links you can PM me?

[/quote]

With all of that said, are you honestly saying you simply don’t understand the problem that some seem to be having with what was specifically said? I responded to it directly, not generally. By the way, I walked up AND DOWN some stairs today without getting winded. Proud of me?

50

[quote]TC wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
TC wrote:
I guarantee you, if you sat down with (or trained with) any of them, you’d be hugely impressed and become a devotee.

Truth is, it’s now CW’s workouts that “irk” me. It’s his dogmatism. He reminds me a lot of Mike Mentzer. “Total body is the ONLY way to gain massive muscle. Anyone who uses another program and gets success is on steriods!”

Mentzer was rightly lampooned in the “interview” with him that appeared on this very site. Now, I’d bet you’d be the first to admit that HIT has some value. It’s Mentzer’s One True Way of presenting HIT that irked you, me, and just about every other thinking person.

So if CW simply said, “I’m the TBT guy. I’ve had a lot of luck with these programs, though lots of other guys think there are better ways. Heck, there are quite a few natural big guys out there who use a split-based program,” few of the people here who’ve been around for a while would get so annoyed.

Hell, I’ll bet if you pulled order histories, the guys most annoyed by CW are the ones with the most history with Biotest/T-Nation. My history with you guys goes back to 1998. We’ve seen gurus come and go. We cried when Dan Duchaine and Mel Siff died. We saw Lyle McDonald go from a frequent poster to the lowcarb-l to an all-star in the business. We’ve been in enough gyms to know that there is no One True Way.

So once CW decides to stop channeling Mentzer, I imagine the “critics” will be silenced.

Counselor, Chad is anything but dogmatic. Trust me.

Sweet. Good natured. Fun to talk to. Willing to hear the other guy’s opinion. Sews all his own clothes.

Really. Trust me. If he’s dogmatic in this particular interview, it’s because the format called for it.

And Mentzer? I knew Mentzer. I was a friend of Mentzer’s (briefly). Believe me, Chad is no Mentzer.

Mentzer was nuts!

One more thing: Lyle McDonald a “superstar”? Really?

I swear to God I didn’t even know he was still working in the business. I heard he had a blog or something with five guys on it, but that’s all I know.

If he’s that good, maybe he shold work here. Got any links you can PM me?

[/quote]

If TC says so then it is good enough for me. People look too far into stuff. Just because someone tells you what you are used to doing may not be the best even though you have done pretty well with it is no reason to get upset.

People’s arguments would sound alot better if they actually applied themselves to a full body routine and came back and told us how it went. Just bitching about it isn’t cool.

51

[quote]TC wrote:
Chad is anything but dogmatic. Trust me.
[/quote]

Sure, but, he SEEMS to be extremely dogmatic.

Just like Mentzer, Chad SEEMS to be repeatedly saying that if someone’s making great gains on a non-Chad approved method of training then that person is either a genetic freak or using a boat load of drugs or both.

I always find it funny when I read this kind of horse shit. Any coach worth their salt knows that hard work, commitment level, nutritional strategy, recovery methods, mental toughness, and abstaining from detrimental activities is far more important for success than ANY training method. So when I read nonsence like “you’ll only make gains if your on drugs or a freak with program XYZ” I always think to myself, what a load of complete fucking crap.

It’s certainly how I preceive Chad’s views and it appears as if many others have been thinking the same thing as I have.

If what you say is true, he’s really not that way, then at the very least Chad has a public relations problem.

And don’t get me wrong, if people are getting results using his ideas then that’s great, I’m not against his training methods (ok, I think some of his ideas could use some clarification, such as the 10x3 @ 85% of someone’s one rep max protocol), only his SEEMINGLY obstinate Mentzer like dogmatism.

52

[quote]TC wrote:
eengrms76 wrote:

As for your super power- I thought it was choosing really crappy hookers?

Wait a minute, your sister, while not the best, really puts her heart and soul into the task at hand, so calling her “crappy” is way out of line!

(Har-har-har!)

[/quote]

Hey I said [i]really[/i] crappy hookers, not just below average…

53

How often do you use Just your bicep, or just your shoulder, ot just you traps. Almost never.

What I find sort of funny is that the people who bash fullbody have usually never even tried it! Your splits work, you would be a fool to not think this, but until you have done both, then you dont know.

Some of the best bodies have been made with split routines, sure. Many bodybuilders have also some from powerlifting backgrounds… thats not usually body part splits.

Its funny that the author on this site that is very pro-split built 80% of his physique using a non-split method.

Guess what, full body works. Splits work. full body works for me, splits may work for you. The problem exists when someone does a ‘body part split’ using only movements like leg extensions and curls.

54

Can’t we just be friends?

55

[quote]Frank.S wrote:
Guess what, full body works. Splits work. full body works for me, splits may work for you. The problem exists when someone does a ‘body part split’ using only movements like leg extensions and curls.[/quote]

Guess what, 99% of successful bodybuilders use compound movements like squats, bench press, deadlift, rowing movements, and military presses. So with your definition, 99% of successful bodybuilders don’t use a ‘body part split’ training method.

Other people, however, choose to define ‘body part split’ differently than you do.

P.S. over the last couple of decades of lifting weights I’ve used a myriad of training methods including full body routines and a variety of splits setups. I’ve done both and I do know. They all worked. They all had their pros and cons.

56

I hate to do this. I don’t like it when people flame other people because they’re not at a physical peak, or they’re new to lifting. I’m going to do it, though.

[quote]Frank.S wrote:
How often do you use Just your bicep, or just your shoulder, ot just you traps. Almost never.[/quote]

How often do you use your brain?

[quote]Frank.S wrote:
What I find sort of funny is that the people who bash fullbody have usually never even tried it! Your splits work, you would be a fool to not think this, but until you have done both, then you dont know.[/quote]

How could you possibly know this? What a stupid fucking comment.

Do you honestly think that someone like Professor X has never performed a full body routine? Or CL? All the bodybuilders who are cited as having done split routines?

I’ve been dicking around with programs since I was 14, and I’ve only been lifting seriously for the last 3 1/2 - 4 years. You’ve been lifting “almost 1.” Considering that TBT is 2 months, and HFT can be whatever you design (I would guess generally double that), I don’t even know how you could have had time to do any other program.

Most people here, especially the ones who are critical of Waterbury’s perceived zealotry without being trolls, have experimented before.

It’s funny that you’re pigeon-holing the most knowledgable writer on this site as far as most of us are concerned. Dave Tate did bodybuilding work when he was younger. Are you going to say that 80% of his physique is a result of bodybuilding?

The problem exists when people make generalizations about split routines who have been training for an incredibly short time. How’s your full body program going? With the smith machine bench, ez bar curls, tricep kickbacks, leg press and pulldowns 3 times a week? Just because you can cite shitty split programs doesn’t mean I can’t cite shitty full body programs.

I like Waterbury. HFT is very good, I’ll probably grab his book for Christmas. But how about you come back and suck his dick when you actually have enough experience to know what works for you, eh?

57

[quote]Frank.S wrote:
How often do you use Just your bicep, or just your shoulder, ot just you traps. Almost never.

What I find sort of funny is that the people who bash fullbody have usually never even tried it! Your splits work, you would be a fool to not think this, but until you have done both, then you dont know.

Some of the best bodies have been made with split routines, sure. Many bodybuilders have also some from powerlifting backgrounds… thats not usually body part splits.

Its funny that the author on this site that is very pro-split built 80% of his physique using a non-split method.

Guess what, full body works. Splits work. full body works for me, splits may work for you. The problem exists when someone does a ‘body part split’ using only movements like leg extensions and curls. [/quote]

What bodybuilder do you know of that centers his lifts around leg extensions and curls? Do you think squats, deadlifts, T-Bar Rows, and overhead presses are avoided in “split routines”? Because someone like Ronnie Coleman is just doing leg extensions?

Is this really that hard for those like you to comprehend? I don’t need to “try” full body routines published by an author. I was in the gym before most of these guys jumped on this web site to put brand names on these simple concepts.

No one called any of this shit “body split routines” or “full body routines”. Why? because there was no need to approach training as if it was either one or the other. It was common knowledge that all of it needed to be performed to be great.

Putting this shit in a specific order and slapping your name on it has now become a fast track to book sales. I guess it will be another 20 years before some of you understand that and think beyond it.

Why, pray tell, would I need to try a “Waterbury routine”? Because I can’t put together a routine for myself? Because my arms aren’t quite big enough? Because I need to shoot for a XXXXL shirt size? WTF? I’m not a newbie.

I know what works for me…by doing what works long enough to pass most people up in terms of progress. It seems you are still finding what works for you.

Here’s a tip…that will change as you progress. Be smart enough to realize that outside of the context of anyone’s brand name program.

Here’s another one…quit assuming that because someone speaks out against something specifically said by your “favorite author” that their stance is baseless.

58

Wooo, what a backlash this has received lol.

59

my 0.000025 cents:

i am going to have to agree with the guy who said earlier that what is more important than whether you do a body-part split vs a TBT(insert even more echo effects here, LOL), is that you use compound exercises, use progressivly larger loads and volume, and eat enough.

look at all the westside guys. most are fucking jacked! they train the big three lifts often and heavy. they eat tons of food.

hell, look what happens to one of them who decides to diet down(dave tate), shazam! lots and lots of muscle is revealed.

uh-oh, wait a minute, a westside template is ACTUALLY TBT!!! upper back work is done just about every workout!! holey shit! who knew?

60

No matter how much we beat it, the horse is still dead

(and beginning to not even resemble a horse anymore…)