Creationism vs Evolution

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Thought this exchange on the “Eat Your Lungs Out…” article (the article du jour) was appropriate for inclusion on this thread:

pushharder wrote:
I see a bigger story here i.e., the integrity of the scientific community, that goes beyond the gist of the article.

Many people now worship at the altar of “Science”, the alleged au courant purveyor of all that is Right and True. Science is researched, practiced and disseminated by scientists. At that point many people fail to remember the distinction that these scientists are really just People. And People tend to tote their agendas, which among other things include their hopes and fears, around with them wherever they go. Sometimes overtly. Sometimes covertly. Sometimes for political reasons. Sometimes for religious ones. Or financial ones. Or matters of prestige. Or socio-economic ones. Or…simply crazy ones.

Science itself may be infallible but the people associated with it are not. Never ever underestimate the power of a hidden agenda.

BobParr wrote:
Very true, Push! Back in college I took a course on the history of science and it’s philosophical underpinnings. Scientists gather data to establish a theory. As experiments continue, it’s actually normal to come across some data that doesn’t fit the theory and can’t be explained away. They call that an anomaly. When you get more and more anomalies, there comes a tipping point - called a paradigm shift - where the old theory must be abandoned. The undercurrent in all this is that there is a lot of peer pressure on scientists to toe the line. It’s actually risky to point out anomalies as potential holes in a well-established theory. Often, the peer-reviewed journals won’t publish contrarian research, and getting your research papers repeatedly rejected can be a career-killer for most scientists.
[/quote]

God, this is so incredibly true. I’m not even talking about evolution/ID at all here…it happens in many, many different fields of biological research as well as physical research. It makes me sick. There are always crazy theories that don’t deserve to see the light of day, but often times there are legitimate questions that get snuffed out because they don’t toe the line exactly. As much as scientists are supposed to be impartial and objective, they are prone to getting very biased-- I mean, who wants to be wrong about his life’s research?

If you doubt this reality, all you have to do is look at one of the most well founded theories we have today—relativity. Einstein introduced it in 1906, and it only gained acceptance about years later. He was ridiculed by a large part of the scientific community. Yes he became something of a celebrity with the populace shortly after the publication of his article, but serious and commited opposition in the science community was everywhere. Oftentimes histories of science will underplay or omit just HOW MUCH opposition there was to Einstein.

Or better yet, look at black holes–the first detailed descriptions of black holes happened in 1915. Yet as late as the 1940s Einstein himself along with others refused to accept them. And this was over something that was part and parcel of Einstein’s legacy, not something opposed to it or poking holes in it.

Werner Israel, a modern day physicist, has written “There is a curious parallel between the histories of black holes and continental drift {the relative drifting motion of the Earth’s continents}. Evidence for both was already non-ignorable by 1916, but both ideas were stopped in their tracks for half a century by a resistance bordering on the irrational.”

There are other examples from biology, but those are two off the top of my head.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
All you hens (Jab) squawkin’ about the dearth of creationists being published in peer-reviewed journals need to read Bob Parr’s post above.[/quote]

Funnily enough, I just recently went through this. I co-authored a paper on something that was routinely downplayed by the established scientists in our field simply because “they hadn’t seen it.” It took three years to get through the peer review process, and if it weren’t for one of the other authors being absolutely adamant about getting the paper and research out there, it likely would have just been shelved.

It was almost scary to see how often the data was dismissed, even though it was meticulously documented and was reproducible, just because the old guard had missed the signs for 40 years.

Three years is a looong time to be in peer-review.

totally off topic, here is the article, finally published last month, woohoo!: Electron Channeling: A Problem for X-Ray Microanalysis in Materials Science | Microscopy and Microanalysis | Cambridge Core

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Wow! A primate skeleton! Yeah? What about it?

What’s next? Evidence of an extinct bird? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodo[/quote]

lol. Just keeps your eyes and ears closed pal, as long as you don’t like reality you can always substitute your own I guess; whatever works for you.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:

Wow! A primate skeleton! Yeah? What about it?

What’s next? Evidence of an extinct bird? Dodo - Wikipedia

lol. Just keeps your eyes and ears closed pal, as long as you don’t like reality you can always substitute your own I guess; whatever works for you.

QFT.
“We found a primate skeleton indicating a species not seen on earth at this time!”

“Must be a missing link, huh?”

“Sure thing! Gotta be! It fits the model!”

“What if it’s just a species that is extinct?”

“No, man. No way! It fits the model!”

“Hmmmmmm…”

“Hmmmmmm all you want. It IS conclusive proof! It has to be! It fits the model!”

[/quote]

lol. I’m sure that’s how it went.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:

Wow! A primate skeleton! Yeah? What about it?

What’s next? Evidence of an extinct bird? Dodo - Wikipedia

lol. Just keeps your eyes and ears closed pal, as long as you don’t like reality you can always substitute your own I guess; whatever works for you.

QFT.

Yea I tend to be pretty spot on most of the time.

Well, you definitely were this time. You perfectly described the attitude of many evolutionists.[/quote]

Which attitude would that be? Also, I find the term ‘evolutionist’ incredibly silly, as it is almost exclusively used by creationists or proponents of intelligent design. I’m as much a gravitationalist, or germist, or atomist as I am an evolutionist. So it’s sort of pointless to address me as such, instead you can just call me a realist if you want to group them all together.

[quote]borrek wrote:
pushharder wrote:
All you hens (Jab) squawkin’ about the dearth of creationists being published in peer-reviewed journals need to read Bob Parr’s post above.

Funnily enough, I just recently went through this. I co-authored a paper on something that was routinely downplayed by the established scientists in our field simply because “they hadn’t seen it.” It took three years to get through the peer review process, and if it weren’t for one of the other authors being absolutely adamant about getting the paper and research out there, it likely would have just been shelved.

It was almost scary to see how often the data was dismissed, even though it was meticulously documented and was reproducible, just because the old guard had missed the signs for 40 years.

Three years is a looong time to be in peer-review.

totally off topic, here is the article, finally published last month, woohoo!: Electron Channeling: A Problem for X-Ray Microanalysis in Materials Science | Microscopy and Microanalysis | Cambridge Core
[/quote]

And on a related note things like your struggle is why I dismiss the notion that science is all powerful and trumps all. I hear all the time “well Science says this” and “Science says that”. People simply do not understand what they are saying. Science is NOT monolithic. People really think science is sooo perfect–if not in its every finding or theory, really, then at least in the almost altruistic, “quest for truth” of it’s practitioners. This is not so—we are curious creatures and want to understand as much as we can, yes—but there are too many politics and too much posturing, and too many downright DIRTY games, to put either science or scientists on a pedestal as so many have. And this happens not just in hot button fields like “global warming” or whatever. This is in everything.

Scientists are NOT a breed apart from others–they just have more formal training and skills. In fact, as of now there are several non MDs and non-scientists whose endocrinology expertise I would take over most “experts” that I know of.

Up until the early 20th century, It was assumed the layman could understand science. Was expected to understand science. Science publications were spread all over. Then as Einstein’s theories came out, there was a gradual sort of move by scientists to kind of downplay the amount of science a layperson could understand. It sort of cemented a niche for scientists being considered “special” or unique in their abilities–like it was something normal people couldn’t do. Ever hear the word “Einstein” bandied about in a derogatory manner? That’s how it came to be. Sure, the level of biochem or physics now can’t be done at home like with Ben Franklin, but that’s not to say laypeople can’t understand or follow the “experts”. Or that they should remain skeptical of them! They should.

Ever since the early 20th century that illusory gulf between scientist and “normal” person has grown wider, until the point that we’re at now where people just take whatever scientists say as a prescription on their lives that must be right, or at least better than any alternative, because hey! they’re SCIENTISTS man.

Just to be clear—this has nothing to do with this thread. I just had to get that off my chest because it pisses me off. It’s also one of the reasons why I refuse to downplay the importance of philosophy and philosophical argumentation and put “science” above that level.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:

Wow! A primate skeleton! Yeah? What about it?

What’s next? Evidence of an extinct bird? Dodo - Wikipedia

lol. Just keeps your eyes and ears closed pal, as long as you don’t like reality you can always substitute your own I guess; whatever works for you.

QFT.

Yea I tend to be pretty spot on most of the time.

Well, you definitely were this time. You perfectly described the attitude of many evolutionists.

Which attitude would that be? Also, I find the term ‘evolutionist’ incredibly silly, as it is almost exclusively used by creationists or proponents of intelligent design. I’m as much a gravitationalist, or germist, or atomist as I am an evolutionist. So it’s sort of pointless to address me as such, instead you can just call me a realist if you want to group them all together.

How about we compromise and I call you a real evolutionist?

[/quote]

Well that would just be redundant; I prefer to air on the side of brevity.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:

Wow! A primate skeleton! Yeah? What about it?

What’s next? Evidence of an extinct bird? Dodo - Wikipedia

lol. Just keeps your eyes and ears closed pal, as long as you don’t like reality you can always substitute your own I guess; whatever works for you.

QFT.

Yea I tend to be pretty spot on most of the time.

Well, you definitely were this time. You perfectly described the attitude of many evolutionists.

Which attitude would that be? Also, I find the term ‘evolutionist’ incredibly silly, as it is almost exclusively used by creationists or proponents of intelligent design. I’m as much a gravitationalist, or germist, or atomist as I am an evolutionist. So it’s sort of pointless to address me as such, instead you can just call me a realist if you want to group them all together.

How about we compromise and I call you a real evolutionist?

Well that would just be redundant; I prefer to air on the side of brevity.

You just erred alright.[/quote]

Bah I fucking knew I was using the wrong word. I couldn’t think of err. Thanks rofl.

[quote]Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Fergy wrote:
pushharder wrote:

Wow! A primate skeleton! Yeah? What about it?

What’s next? Evidence of an extinct bird? Dodo - Wikipedia

lol. Just keeps your eyes and ears closed pal, as long as you don’t like reality you can always substitute your own I guess; whatever works for you.

QFT.
“We found a primate skeleton indicating a species not seen on earth at this time!”

“Must be a missing link, huh?”

“Sure thing! Gotta be! It fits the model!”

“What if it’s just a species that is extinct?”

“No, man. No way! It fits the model!”

“Hmmmmmm…”

“Hmmmmmm all you want. It IS conclusive proof! It has to be! It fits the model!”

lol. I’m sure that’s how it went.
[/quote]

Ok, so I’m going to preface this by saying that I am REALLY REALLLY looking forward to more info on this fossil find (if it’s the new one I’m thinking about-but I haven’t bothered to read the link that was posted on the primate). This is fascinating to me. The baby mammoth thing was unbelievably cool.

That being said, Fergy, I see the kind of thinking that push parodied all the time in science. Many fields of it. I’d really actually say ALL fields of it that I have contact with so far. It’s not as witty or entertaining as what push made up, but it’s a scary parallel–except scientists are coached enough to avoid the “conclusive proof” semantic. The underlying thinking is still the same.

This is why I hate it when people say things like “science says this”. It’s a variation on the appeal to authority fallacy.

Don’t knock it Fergy. It happens more than you’d like to think.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Don’t sweat it, Ferg. Not every “real evolutionist” can be a real good speller too.[/quote]

Hahaha, I guess not.

[insert generic excuse about aforementioned embarrassing act here]

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

This is why I hate it when people say things like “science says this”. It’s a variation on the appeal to authority fallacy.

Don’t knock it Fergy. It happens more than you’d like to think.[/quote]

I do not disagree with you, I just find it interesting that creationists have no problem accepting modern physics when they use their GPS systems, no problem with modern engineering when they use their computers, no problem with modern chemistry when they fill up their SUVs with premium gasoline, no problem accepting microevolution when they go to the doctor every year and get a different flu shot, but when you tell them that gene frequencies in a population can change over time leading to speciation, they lose their fucking minds and claim that science is ‘dumb’, ‘wrong’, and ‘ignorant’.

[quote]borrek wrote:
pushharder wrote:
All you hens (Jab) squawkin’ about the dearth of creationists being published in peer-reviewed journals need to read Bob Parr’s post above.

Funnily enough, I just recently went through this. I co-authored a paper on something that was routinely downplayed by the established scientists in our field simply because “they hadn’t seen it.” It took three years to get through the peer review process, and if it weren’t for one of the other authors being absolutely adamant about getting the paper and research out there, it likely would have just been shelved.

It was almost scary to see how often the data was dismissed, even though it was meticulously documented and was reproducible, just because the old guard had missed the signs for 40 years.

Three years is a looong time to be in peer-review.

totally off topic, here is the article, finally published last month, woohoo!: Electron Channeling: A Problem for X-Ray Microanalysis in Materials Science | Microscopy and Microanalysis | Cambridge Core
[/quote]

That’s cool stuff. What is the practical implication of this phenomena you describe? I say that because I’m really not versed on material science at all. You can PM me if you want to keep this thread on topic, but it’s already starting to drift a bit.