Couldn't have put it better myself.

Off Topic
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PtrDr,

What really bothers me is that I pretty much have the same political ideology as you, and most likely the same moral beliefs. These things have nothing to do with Christianity, though.

It really bothers me that liberals can point to people like you as representatives of conservatism. I hate having my beliefs scoffed at because they are shared by people (like you) who not only live their lives based on a poorly written mythology, but expect others to do so as well.

I don’t care if you have FAITH. That’s great. But to try to say that Christianity can be proven to be anything more than a myth is crazy. If you have faith, you don’t need proof.

“When also I am told that a woman called the Virgin Mary, said, or gave out, that she was with child without any cohabitation with a man, and that her betrothed husband, Joseph, said that an angel told him so, I have a right to believe them or not; such a circumstance required much stronger evidence than their bare word for it; but we have not even this–for neither Joseph nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves; it is only reported by others that they said so–it is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not choose to rest my belief upon such evidence.”
–Thomas Paine

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God Makes Trees first…
Genesis 1
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

Then God makes man (in OUR image, notice, not in MY image)…
Genesis 1
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [1] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

Oops, story changes…
Genesis 2

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [1] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [2] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [3] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man [4] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

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You have a hard heart. You wouldn’t admit the truth of God is someone held a gun to your head. You take tons of things out of context. The Bible isn’t supposed to read as a text/history book. And its not Gods personal chronology to YOU about the order of events of His creation. It just so happens to it matches up in its histrocity with respect to secular history quite nicely!
Mythology?..Thomas Paine?..your an agnostic and that explains why you do not want to see the truth.

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Doogie…for a minute…I thought you MIGHT have something in these “factoid” you copied and pasted. However…once I start looking these up…I am laughing my ass off! You are either stupid or didn’t read these from the Bible …or in context! What isn’t taken out of context completely is just plain ol mis quoted! Your funny…a high school student could even spot the inaccuracies in context within which you took these!
Doogie…which book did you copy and paste from??..you have given me some good ammo to diffuse people who attempt to base arguments from the inaccurate info. you were nice enough to post here!
Thanks man…you did some nice work for me!

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If he’s agnostic, then he might believe there is a “God” out there, and no gun needed.

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PtrDr,
Regardless of the inaccuracies or lack thereof in the bible, I would like to address the bigger issue of forcing everyone to comply to your method of belief.

Incidentally, in defense of Doogie, he is a highly principled man who teaches and leads by example in his own community, including something that all of you in here would support… teaching values to young children, which this country desperately needs! His beliefs should not be called into question. If we are judged in the end by our actions then he has nothing to fear.

His point to you is that you were being quite literal in your interpretation of an ancient philosophical text, which is interpreted very differently by just about every individual that reads it. You obviously have your beliefs, but why should others who see it differently be FORCED to believe that way you do. This is the same attitude that we are trying to liberate other countries from.

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PtrDr:

?You have a hard heart. You wouldn’t admit the truth of God is someone held a gun to your head.?
??your an agnostic and that explains why you do not want to see the truth.?

No, I?m a deist, and a quite jolly one at that. I believe in one God. I hope there is an afterlife. I believe that to say the Bible is an account of God is a complete insult to Him.

?Mythology?..Thomas Paine?..?

You do know who Thomas Paine is, right? You?ve read ?Common Sense? and ?The Crisis?, right? After all, you are an Air Force captain. You do realize that without him the Revolutionary War quite possibly would have turned out different. Let me quote a nice big chunck of THE AGE OF REASON for you, since I?m quite sure you don?t have the courage to read it yourself. This follows a discussion of the obvious parallels between the old greek mythologies and Christianity:

?Having thus made an insurrection and a battle in Heaven, in which none of the combatants could be either killed or wounded?put Satan in a pit?let him out again?giving him a triumph over the whole creation?damned all mankind by the eating of an apple, these Christian Mythologists bring the two ends of their fable together.  They represent this virtuous and amiable man, Jesus Christ, to be at once both God and Man, and also the Son of God, celestially begotten, on purpose, to be sacrificed, because they say that Eve in her longing had eaten an apple.
 Putting aside everything that might excite laughter by its absurdity, or detestation by its profaneness, and confining ourselves merely to an examination of the parts, it is impossible to conceive a story more derogatory to the Almighty, more inconsistent with his wisdom, more contradictory to his power than this story is.
In order to make for it a foundation to rise upon, the inventors were under the necessity of giving to the being whom they call Satan, a power equally as great, if not greater than they attribute to the Almighty.  They have not only given him the power of liberating himself from the pit, after what they call his fall, but they have made that power increase afterward to infinity.  Before this fall they represent him only as an angel of limited existence, as they represent the rest.  After his fall, he becomes, by their account omnipresent.  He exists everywhere, and at the same time.  He occupies the whole immensity of space.
 Not content with this deification of Satan, they represent him as defeating, by stratagem, in the shape of an animal of creation, all the power and wisdom of the Almighty.  They represent him as having compelled the Almighty to the direct necessity either of surrendering the whole of the creation to the government and sovereignty of this Satan, or of capitulating for its redemption by coming down upon earth, and exhibiting himself upon a cross in the shape of a man. 
Had the inventors of this story told it the contrary way, that is, had they represented the Almighty as compelling Satan to exhibit himself on a cross, in the shape of a snake, as punishment for his new transgression, the story would have been less absurd?less contradictory.  But instead of this, they make the transgressor triumph, and the Almighty fall.?
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Ptrdr:

?You are either stupid or didn’t read these from the Bible …or in context! What isn’t taken out of context completely is just plain ol mis quoted!?

That is not much of a rebuttal. Can you not at least try to explain? There are at least 10 Christian websites that have articles about how to try and refute these clear contradictions. Usually number 1 or 2 on the list is ?Say they are taken out of context.? Hell, I?ll make it easy for you. Just start with the Genesis quotes above. Don?t try to say the second one is only talking about the Garden of Eden, because it says, ?This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.?

?Your funny…a high school student could even spot the inaccuracies in context within which you took these! ?

Most high school students can spell ?you?re?. Here?s a shot to prove you think on a high school level, explain how I either misquoted or took these out of context.
Genesis 6:19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.

Genesis 7:2 Take with you seven [1] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."
5 And Noah did all that the LORD commanded him.

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Oh…I can give you an easy example of how you take scripture of of context. You mention Paul speaking in Corinthians and Galatians. Paul is talking about not making people stumble by eating or drinking certain things that they have a hang up about. In other words…if you are hanging out with Christians who are very conservative as a personal thing with respect to drinking…it would be polite not to drink in their prescense. Not to set up a stumbling block in other words for them. The Galatians passage is talking about false teachers within the church teaching a false gospel that appealed to peoples inclinations and desires and not what Jesus Christ actually directed the believers to preach. In other words…Paul would not sell out the true gospel just to be popular!
And doogie…I can spell quite nicely…I am not the best typist however and yes…I give Thomas Paine credit for the Revolution…but I do not regard his theology or philosophy as anything but rubbish. You CAN be smart…and still be hard hearted and decieved!

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PtrDr,
The important thing to remember is that we have the RIGHT to be hard-hearted and “deceived” in this country. What you are in favor of would make such beliefs and practices illegal.

Let me put it in terms that you can relate too. I assume that you are NOT in favor of the oppressive rule of the Taliban government, who observes such strict and conservative Muslim law, that the very notion that someone would not believe could result in ones death. Do you want someone forcing you to believe in something that you do not believe in? To someone who does not share your zeal, being forced to be a Christian by law would be nothing short of the same kind of tyranny that many are subjected to under Taliban law. Why would you want that?

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RoyBatty…
What in the world makes you think that I want to FORCE people into Christianity???..that is whacko!!! Im not sure what I said to give you that impression. I do think Christians should evangelize the world…thats called the Great Commission that Christ gave us. However…that does not include oppressive tactics directed by the government or any other conercive force! I am not sure where you got that whacky notion I am for that type of thing.
I’m all for religous freedom. God made us free will agents so we would see Him on our own. Thats what true love is all about~!!!

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Sandy Koufax was a great left hander and also Jewish. Sorry, that was the other stupid thread.

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irondoc…did someone put a gun to your head and ask for your comment on this post?..nah…didn’t think so…

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PtrDr,

Come on. Irondoc is just messing with us. Don’t get defensive. After all, most of us are going to be burning in eternal hellfire. At least let him joke on the off topic forum.

Now back to the Genesis quotes above. Do you care to attempt to address either? Remember, it only takes ONE of the above contradictions to throw the legitimacy of the Bible into question.

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doogie, I would like to know if you yourself have actually researched these so called “contradictions”, if you did not, maybe you have no right spouting off.

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thanks Doogie. I have political and religious beliefs that are wired very tight. They won’t be changed by debate or what some think are facts. I think after 39 years i’m starting to see how the world works in different aspects. I’m politically conservative with liberataian leanings. I’m a Lutheran.
that being said, people spend a lot of time arguing about things that are opinions, some of which we’ll find out ie religiong, what the story is when we die. I have faith. It works for me. I don’t force it on other people. It’s something to discover on your own, a debate won’t schange someones beliefs.
the Sandy Koufax comment was about another hijacked thread were a person asked a legitimate question on great Jewish athletes.
now if you want to know how things work, I’ll give you my rules on life. :

  1. Life’s not fair. A good reason to keep trying ans stop whining.
  2. Everyone’s full of shit. Most people are very inconsistent with belief and behavior. Also many people with what seems to be an easy life, have it pretty tough but follow rule one. You never know what someone else deals with. As a doc I see the lives and stories.
  3. You’re not that special. Good happens to everyone, bad also can happen. Don’t belive your own press clippings. The mighty can fall, the down can pull up. Luck either way can happen. For the bible guys, “This to shall pass.”
  4. Every one wants to get into heaven knowonw ants to die. Most don’t want the hard work, but want the glory.
    This is what I believe and try to live by. I’m a poor typist and don’t like to get drawn into a lengthy debate over something that can’t be resolved. There is work to do, a fiancee’ to do, liftint to do and ART to do. Every morning I say a little prayer for my loved one and friends for safety and guidance. I thank god for my gifts and try to see the good in life. I don’t have time to try to prove someone wrong. Messing with someone can put a little smile on my face. I just think some of you guys waste a lot of enrgy getting fired up that can go into a deadlift or something.
    Wars will happen, new laws will be a pain in the ass, coservative and liberals will all try to get power, I’ll vote for who I think is best. People will argue over this stuff and get filled with righteous indignation over something that can’t be resolved. If anyone cares I think liberals are kind of silly, I don’t have a problem with the death penalty, don’t belive in gun control, think govt. either party likes to take power and restrict freedom, but people whine for it’s help to much. the president of either party never gave me a job. Some pretty hard core bible thumping ministers did not live lives they preached.
    My life is an open book. I would not be ashamed to talk in public about it. Some of those that preach wouldn’t do the smae thing.
    Isn’t time for someone to whine about some girl that blah blah blah?
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IronDoc,
Thank you … Most refreshing to read your position on all of this. You seem to have great clarity amid all this chaos.

PtrDR,
You asked what it was that you said that made me think that you felt that we should all be forced into Christianity. Perhaps I misinterpreted these comments:

[quote]1) So, because they are right…they have a obligation to spread the truth Lumpy!

  1. Christians can’t convert people against their will. If a Mormon (which is a cult) comes to my door; I have two alternatives. One is to invite him again and grill him about Joseph Smith and his so called “visions” and the supposed angel who gave him the goggles to translate the golden plates that had the word of God on them from Egytian hyerogliphics into English. How absurd! Not to mention all the revisions they have had to make in their “only true religion” to be legal here in the US…ie…multiple wives and allowing black people in their church!!!
    The point being…I can show him where he is clearly wrong…or I can shut the door after politely telling him I am not interested.
    The big thing Christianity has over Islam is historical accuracy and archeological evidence of the manuscripts. There are more holes than swiss cheese in the history of the Koran. And in the Muslim world…they are prohibited from researching the authenticity/validity of the Koran!!!..hows that for open and honest religous freedom!
    Christianity just happens to be Gods plan…therefore it will spread and it can’t be stopped. Its accurate in all accounts with no discrepancies in the word of God of substance. Any errors where grammtical in nature…punctuation and certain numberals for example. The Koran can make no such claim! Its a religion of Lucifer himself.

  2. There is ONE right answer in seeking God. Just like in mathematics…ONE right answer. And God Himself said that No one comes to the Father except through ME (Christ).
    Islam is fundamentally flawed historically as well as theologically.
    Some things are not totally clear in the Bible. But the essentials of salvation and Gods plan for our redemption or not. [/quote]

Some thoughts on your opinions. First, although I do not embrace the Mormon faith personally, they are no more a cult than Christianity. And what is all this stuff about “accepting blacks” in their church being a bad thing? Do you somehow believe blacks to be inferior? I am not accusing you of this, I am just trying to understand your quote.

Your beliefs don’t seem to allow for any other answer to the universal questions but your own. I have spent most of my adult life in study of human behavior and spirituality. According to YOUR belief, I should just drop everything I have learned and adopt YOUR belief system or be condemned to eternal hell fire.

The Qor’an is no more evil or right than the Bible. You jab at Muslim history, apparantly forgetting that they both used the Old Testament, and even the New Testament, but just believed that God redirected them at a certain point. They just branched off from the same EXACT history, so calling their history inaccurate and the product of Lucifer himself is to say the same about your very own Bible. It may behoove you to do a little research on your own rather than simply taking as total truth the words of a “hellfire and brimstone” minister.

I am not a Muslim, but I don’t believe that Muslims are evil. They have been raised in their culture and beliefs just as you have been, and are just as convinced that they are right as you are. Had you been born to Muslim parents, with your strong leaning toward spirituality, you would be just at stridently supporting Islam as you are Christianity.

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Irondoc,

I pretty much agree with everything you said. I actually grew up in the Methodist church in a tiny town in West Texas. The town was so small that we shared all the facilities with the Lutheran church. The congregations were combined for everything (youth groups, socials, softball teams, vacation Bible school) except Sunday services.
I learned the morals that I have in Church and from my parents. At some point I realized that I had a bunch of questions about God that no one had satisfactory answers for, and that I had lost faith. That didn’t change the basic morals that I believed in, though. I still know it is wrong to steal, to kill, to pork other people’s wives, and to lie. And again, I have no problem with Christianity. Some of the best hours of my life have been spent sitting in silence with Quakers. It’s fine for people to believe whatever they want to believe, but it irritates me to no end to be told that they can prove they are right and everyone else is wrong. I haven’t reached a point in my life where I can just ignore that.

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Thanks guys. There is a lot more to do in life than argue opinions and the unanswerd questions in the universe. Go up the max bench , call your mom, see the matrix, run, ride a bike, learn something.
More time is spent arguing than practicing you faith. Didn’t Jesus make more wine at the wedding? Yeah, but some say God doesn’t like booze, or dancing, or etc. I think the almighty has his hands full with the big stuff that he lets us figure out the little details. If we screw up, oh well. I’m we’ll hear about it on judgement day. Worry about your own shit. Most don’t want to save their neighbor by preaching, they want to feel better about theirselves and their beliefs. Mine are solid.

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Roy Batty…
A man convinced his will is of the same opinion still…

I don’t expect to change yours with the facts. You don’t care about the facts or you would investigate the Bible with an open mind and look at the evidence…manuscript evidence…archeological evidence…the tons of fullfilled prophecies and the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. As for Muslims…lots have seen the truth and have converted. Remember…Jesus Christ said that NO ONE comes to the Father apart from Him. Its not my opinion that matters. Its what Jesus Christ said. And He rose from the grave and appeared to over 500 people…a ton of which were willing to willfully go to their DEATH for what they saw!!! How many people would willfully go to their death for something they knew was a lie??? And none of them were brainwashed…in fact…most didn’t even understand He would be resurrected at all and some even doubted until they saw Him firsthand! Now, anyone that can take up his life from the grave in my book has to be God! and He has instant credibility…someone who can lay down His life and take it back up again.

There can be only one right answer…as offensive as that may sound to your ears.
You sound very much like a New Ager and also like you subscribe to moral relativism.
All I can say to you is that eternity is forever…be sure you have the right answers and don’t be close minded to the truth!

all the best…