Why would you comment anything like that?
I was asking you a question
I have been condemned in PWI many times over the last year
I do not recall condemning anyone
So my question was do you believe I will be unable to resist the temptation to do so at some point in the future - or what?
And I guess maybe your answer is that Matthew 7:3-5 is the response already. I donât need to worry about God Almighty fulfilling 7:2 for me, because 7:3-5 have already beaten us all to the punch?
I donât get what else you could have meant by pointing me to 7:3-5, I had already read them, which should be expected
All five verses should be considered when judging another person. It is possible or even likely that your position is worse than the person you are judging. Donât be surprised if you receive judgment because the judgment you dished out. Verses 3-5 suggest that maybe you best correct your position before criticizing another person.
It is simply a good model for respecting one another. âCanât we just all get along?â
Just know that you are the only person who can improve you. Life is not fair.
Job 14:16, âMan that is born of a woman is of few days and full of troubleâ
My only judgement was that the people in proximity to me were more worthy of me sharing the advice, suggestions and warnings that I have rather than me reading their writings and deeming them unworthy of sharing my kindest best that I could muster
I was looking forward to your and The_Myths best feedback
My intent was to share something of guidance and mercy, understanding it could well be insufficient
I know you donât approve of this but still, this is where Iâm at - this is how I read it
Donât be surprised if you receive insufficient guidance and mercy because the guidance and mercy you dished out was insufficient.
In other words - try harder
Maniacal laughter
Yeah, I plan too
We got here because I was being condemned for not condemning, and I had stooped so low as to explain part of why joining in would be so unappealing
You suggest I correct my position how?
My suggestion was that Christians not take their condemnation so lightly - your suggestion is that I do?
I find it very entertaining that I can get along perfectly fine with plenty of Christians on here, but with others itâs like theyâve got a lot of interest in communicating nothing other than the online forum equivalent of âconvert or dieâ, very thinly masked
It is a good model for respecting one another, but I believe it is far more than just that
On the flip side I have experienced also another way - my own subconscious returning my judgement of others back to me eventually (or even constantly). And even being kind enough to do so in a way that I could consciously see it (eventually).
Well, thank you for helping me get this off of my chest - I couldnât have done it without you
Not necessarily
It could be taken to indicate such, but I see that as a temptation that I donât have to fall into
If I were to know a city folk who was a depressed drunkard, drug addicted, pedophile mess and I did something kind to him once - that act of kindness could be described as supporting a pedophile
Thinking with oneâs mind that I might meet that description doesnât necessitate judging me in ones heart
In comprehending and contemplating your question I had to think (for at least a few seconds) of myself as supporting a pedophile, while not being able to judge myself as such in my own heart
I donât take Mathew 7 to be recommending against exercising any degree of judgement at all whatsoever in all contexts. It seems to be less about the mind and more about the heart. And it jumps out most to me where it becomes eternal condemnation - although thatâs not specified directly in the beginning - it does seem to be indicated at the end.
This is why I like for arguing against me to be something like riding a bike with training wheels or bowling with bumper lanes.
I kid
sort of,
heh
If the stakes were high enough I would like something like training wheels or bumper lanes for myself (Mathew 7:12)
So my natural tendency has become to say no to your question, eventually
Though I do acknowledge that it does make sense to have seen stuff such ways previously
It would have been more tempting if the question were to have specified supporting pedophilia as opposed to âa pedophileâ fwiw. I recall hearing âThe Tempterâ and âThe Accuserâ as names for Satan fwiw.
Thank you for asking.
You certainly know that is not the âsupportingâ that I was referencing. It is supporting that the sin of pedophile is acceptable in the eyes of God. Being kind to the poor, regardless of the sin that they commit, is NOT supporting any sin that they might have committed. The word of God condemns them of any unforgiven sin.
You need to quit trying to find flaws in everything that I reply, especially if you are incapable of replying promptly. I couldnât recall the comment you quoted. I had to go back over the context around my comment. I find that inconsiderate, hopefully it is not an attempt to confound the conversation. You can do better.
I did not know that you considered yourself to be referencing an actual act of supporting - and I disagree with your characterization. If I were to have understood your question that way - I wouldnât have bothered.
Interesting - I suggest you try the same, but I wouldnât go so far as to say âneedâ.
You asked me a question that required either thinking a bit extra, or simply not answering - I suppose the other option would be to transform instantaneously into something that I am not
You got the most honest answer I could muster, eventually
Thanks I guess
I came back and got a re-read and noticed something undone - if it happens again maybe I should just leave it alone. Calls into question the (in)considerateness of asking such questions btw
If notice my comments I am giving my opinion and am not asking you a question. I just comment with what God says, then make an interpretive application or statement.
Why you wait weeks to reply if beyond me.
I have highlighted a difference between judging and condemning which your question didnât take into consideration.
Your quote of me says condemn while your question asks judge
So no
Also, I was dealing with a portion of Bible material which should be more pressing upon (people who claim to be) Christians than on humanity as a whole. So thatâs another difference between what I said and what you asked me to confirm.
I also specified Muhammad (saw) rather than just âeach otherâ in general
Three differences off of the top of my head. They are each significant to me. You might not have been capable, interested, motivated to notice them - but you did seem capable and interested, just not motivated enough to notice/acknowledge
It seemed like it would have taken a bit more to have had a worthwhile conversation around it.
I brought the âmoreâ, eventually
If itâs too little, too late, then fair enough
I donât understand what youâre trying to say here - the question I had quoted was just rhetorical?
Seemed like it wasnât worth the time/energy when I first read it at the time
But eventually the weight of my memory of leaving something undone gets heavy enough to go back for it, and some sort of gap was found for me to fill, so I did
The problem is that when you wait so long to reply it is extremely difficult to your comment fair analysis when I have forgotten the context of my comments. In this case my comment was made in October 2024. I have had numerous Bible related conversations the past 5 months.
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Well the thing is none of our comments have one and only one context
For every measurement there is a degree of uncertainty
Fair analysis is not only extremely difficult, but outright impossible - period
I can intentionally err on one side of caution, or I can intentionally err on the other side of caution. I could in theory try forever to lower the (margin for) error (rate), but if Iâm still living it would still exist
You donât owe me a fair analysis, so if the notion seems burdensome then drop it
When you read the Bible and especially the books that contain the earthly ministry of Jesus, look to Matthew chapter 22 for some guidance as to what He is teaching.
Matthew 22: [36] Master, which is the greatcommandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment
[39] And the second is like unto it*, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang allthe law and the prophets.
Jesus is surely addressing both commandments in His teaching.
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When you discredit my comment, even from solely your opinion, I will try to straighten the record. There are others who read what we write.
What is it about my demeanor that suggests to you that I should be reminded of this again?
I felt that I had understood this thoroughly
Muhammad (saw) is quoted as saying that Faith is incomplete until the believer loves Muhammad (saw) more than their own self
If there ever were a true Christian that lived up to that second commandment who also had a true Muslim neighbor that lived up to its mirror commandment, they would each love Muhammad (saw) more than either of them loved either of them
Thatâs just pure logic, theoretical if, if, if, then
I have some sympathy (but only a little) for the view that their is practically zero true Christian or Muslim through and through so it could seem overly theoretical
I donât know what you are referring to with âdiscreditâ, but besides that it seems fair enough. Nothing wrong with trying to straighten the record - unless one were trying too hard - heh
Actually, my statement was a bit off - surprise, surprise
If there ever were a true Christian that lived up to that second commandment who also had a true Muslim neighbor that lived up to its mirror commandment, they would each (tend towards) loving Muhammad (saw) more than either of them loved either of them , eventually
Itâs not up to me to take the measurement and set the cut off point at a particular time - but that would be a natural direction of energy flow in their neighborly relationship
If that makes sense
This is only logic from a Muslimâs perspective, unless you limit the Christianâs premises to your statements.
There are multiple books of the Bible that warn against false teachers. The Christian is told that the oracles of God are committed to the Jews.
Romans 3:1 âWhat advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.â
Anything taught as truth from God must come from the Bible. If it isnât taught from the Bible it is considered taught by a false teacher as it pertains to our relationship with God.
Christians are not called to love false teachers. They are told to separate themselves from false teachers.
To a Christian the premises are all the word of God.
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Past vs present/future/eternal
If the Christian is told that, it isnât in your Bible quote
Logic nonetheless
You havenât backed up your unless clause
âonly logicâ from one perspective is still logic Mr. Spock
My father was born into a Christian household before converting to Islam. My grandmother and I were having a conversation and I canât remember what I said or asked but her response was to look at me deeper in my eye with more intensity than usual as she said that my father had been saved and that there was nothing anybody could do to ever change that.
There was a Christian that had a Muslim neighbor and that particular Christian eventually grew to love Muhammad (saw) more and more until becoming Muslim - I do trust that youâre not gonna go telling me she was never a true Christian?
I am the product of things that happened differently than how youâve described
If you were to tell me that you were 100% certain that Muhammad (saw) was a false teacher then I would not believe you
If you were to tell me that you were 99.999% certain that Muhammad (saw) was a false teacher then I would not believe you
If you were to tell me that you were 99.9% certain that Muhammad (saw) was a false teacher then I would believe that you were being as truthful as you could muster, maybe erring on some side of caution intentionally
If you were to tell me that you were 99.99% certain that Muhammad (saw) was a false teacher then I would suspect that you were exaggerating a little and speaking beyond your true level of confidence, but probably trying your best
For every measurement there is always a degree of uncertainty
Mathew 7
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
(a clear commandment, followed by an encouragement)
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
(shall - not might, not maybe - a guarantee)
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brotherâs eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brotherâs eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
(one could argue that this contradicts the KJV language of 7:1 as judgement is to be exercised as specified here - and thatâs a part of why I take 7:1 to be saying to do ones best to avoid eternal judgement/condemnation. It is one thing to exercise judgement in ones life - to complete* judgement of a person or group is a different thing)
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
(This matches with distancing from what appear as false teachers imo - well before the falseness becomes certain)
(it just crossed my mind that perhaps you meant that the Christian in the scenario I mentioned could never keep a Muslim neighbor that was so sincere. Run? Fight? Argue? Fight doesnât seem to fit⊠Argue kindly? run?)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheepâs clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(Muhammad (saw) claimed to be the Last Messenger - and I donât think anybody else has ever made that claim before or since. if you notice, Jesus (as) is not quoted here claiming anything to the contrary. And if there were only one true teacher left then there would be many false ones. Itâs not an explicit match but thereâs room for a fit. Thereâs nothing in Mathew 7 to say thereâs no true prophet(s) coming.)
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(one could again find a contradiction with how Iâve described 7:1, except again that key word - shall. If itâs unavoidable then itâs unavoidable)
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(then in your evidence to back up your claim that Muhammad (saw) was a false teacher, it would be sorely lacking unless it showed how/why Muhammad (saw) brings forth fruit that is evil only with no good)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(Quran elaborates on this significantly)
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(again shall - itâs not only effortless but unavoidable)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(exactly. Did you catch that? âKnowingâ Jesus (as) is explicitly not required. I think you have noticed that before. It also says doing - as does the Quran)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Doing wonderful works in the name of Jesus (as) misses the mark. Doing is necessary 7:21 - but specifically NOT in the name of Jesus (as))
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(did you catch that? Jesus (as) will profess not being All KnowingâŠ)
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
(Whoever - Christian or not. Hear and do. Not talk, argue, repeat, think, believe, âaccept Jesus (as)â - do. Thatâs a higher bar than most Christians seem to think - and it matches the Quran to boot)
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
(Everyone - Christian or not. )
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
My reading of my Quran tells me that among the Christians and Jews there are true believers, but that they are not the majority
My reading of that Hadith tells me that the Faith of true believers among Muslims, Christians, Jews, anybody is not complete until they love Muhammad (saw) more than they love themselves
I donât find anything in Mathew 22:36-40 or Mathew 7 to contradict it.
You have linked Mathew 7 to Mathew 22:36-40 yourself several times now, so I donât see why other books of the Bible would be more relevant.
I do not claim 100% certainty, but I cannot assume you are closer to it than I
How many of them have been applied by Jews to Jesus (as)? Thereâs more than one side of caution to err on.
God committed (past) to the Jews the oracles of God. I have no problem with that. Did God take that special advantage away from the Jew? There is no recorded statement that God took the Jewâs advantage away in the Bible.
Paul wrote the Epistle to the Romans about AD 57.
Paulâs Prison Epistles (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Plilemon) were written near AD 60-62. This is in the future of Romans.
The Epistle of Jude was written near AD 66. This is future of Romans.
And The Revelation was written by John around 95 AD. This is future of Romans.
All Bible believing Christians believe that the 66 books of the Bible contain the entirety of the words of God that He gave to man.
There is no mention anywhere in the Bible where God committed the oracles of God to any other people.
It is ONLY logical if the premises are limited. For any conclusion on Biblical interpretation requires the entire Bible be the premises that logic can be derived.
If the premises cannot be agreed upon there can no logical conclusion be made. When you make the conclusion, it holds no water to those who donât accept your premises. You are smarter than this.
We are not going to agree on your interpretation of Matthew 7:1-2 You are just incorrect. This has nothing to do with Godâs judgment. This is about our relationship with one another. Matthew 7:3-5 makes that very clear.
3 "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brotherâs eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brotherâs eye."
The fact that you cannot see that is because you want to use Matt 7:1-2 against others who insult your sensibility.
There is much more in the Bible than Matthew chapter 7.
Did you ever consider that Matthew was written primarily to the nation of Israel? There is much there that counters Church doctrine. The Kingdom of Heaven is repeatedly mentioned. The Jews are promised an earthly kingdom. The Church is not promised an earthly kingdom.