Conservatism

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

It is an exaltation of the individual with all of his faults and all of his potential. [/quote]

This is what I wonder at. Should conservatism do so? Is it a philosophy of hyper-individualism? Are we atomistic? I agree that the individual should be considered. But is this the conservatives first response? What if I suggested that conservatism should exalt civil society ABOVE the individual? Is not exaltation of the individual the conerstone of liberalism? Well, libertarianism today, if we’re to bend to more modern terms, I guess.

Not trying to be picky, so forgive me. I’m trying to boil it down–though, I it may be impossible–as to where conservatism finds it starting point, before branching out into what it must support.

Let me share bit of an article, ‘America’s Potemkin Village,’ by Patrick J. Deenen. Here he recalls Tocqueville’s caution.

[b] The tendency for democracies, over time, toward separation, solipsism, individualism–suspicious of groups and people that make claims upon individuals, more tempted by private than public concerns, increasingly understanding freedom to be doing as one wants–renders democratic people ripe for the rise of the tutelary State.

Tocqueville over and over describes such people as “weak,” shorn of the resources that provide an avenue toward a true form of freedom. And so, he writes toward the conclusion of Democracy in America that the individual freedom claiming to do what we want will lead to the most debased form of modern tyranny, willing subjects to a tutelary State. Tocqueville writes, with acute insight:[/b]

“Since…no one is obliged to lend his force to those like him and no one has the right to expect great support from those like him, each is at once independent and weak. These two states–which must neither be viewed separately nor confused–give the citizen of democracies very contrary instincts. His independence fills him with confidence and pride among his equals, and his debility makes him feel, from time to time, the need of the outside help that he cannot expect from any of them, since they are all impotent and cold. In this extremity, he naturally turns his regard to the immense being [the tutelary, bureaucratic, centralized State] that rises alone in the midst of universal debasement. His needs and above all his desires constantly lead him back toward it, and in the end he views it as the unique and necessary support for his individual weakness.”

Tocqueville’s analysis provides us with a unique understanding of the sources of modern centralization and the rise of the administrative State. Often we tend to view its rise as the result of a collectivist spirit, and assert in its opposition a hale defense of individualism. Tocqueville’s analysis suggests that those concerned with the rise of the tutelary State should not defend individualism as such–but instead, defend associational life and the spirit of self-government that it engenders. The spirit of liberty that impels individuals toward the liberation born of freedom from obligations and responsibility finally makes us servile dependents upon the State.

^ excellent post Sloth - I love De Tocueville’s writings!

I would say that my post was based the idea of the individual within a limited government framework . . . maybe I just suck as a writer . . . :frowning:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
^ excellent post Sloth - I love De Tocueville’s writings!

I would say that my post was based the idea of the individual within a limited government framework . . . maybe I just suck as a writer . . . :([/quote]

Hah! No, no, you’re fine. I guess I’m just trying to caution as to what language Conservatism should use to explain itself. How it differs from the libertarian and the Leftist. Maybe it’s being too picky, but I can’t help but feel that this is important for those who’d call conservatism their home. Out of my excerpt, it boils down to this:

“Tocqueville’s analysis suggests that those concerned with the rise of the tutelary State should not defend individualism as such–but instead, defend associational life and the spirit of self-government that it engenders. The spirit of liberty that impels individuals toward the liberation born of freedom from obligations and responsibility finally makes us servile dependents upon the State.”

I’m becoming alarmed with the ‘conservative’ language today. Sometimes, I could swear–accepting their language–that Ayn Rand (or, Rothbard…) was the saint of conservatism. When, it seems to me, conservatism should see such philosophy as bringing about the very thing it rages against. The ‘tutelary state.’

Conservatism began in the enlightenment as a reaction to the classical liberal movement against monarchism. Traditionally conservatives wanted to preserve the elitist order.

(sent to me by a friend)

The Conservative:

I’m a conservative. I believe in individual liberty, free markets, private property, and limited government, except for:

  1. Social Security;
  2. Medicare;
  3. Medicaid;
  4. Welfare;
  5. Drug laws;
  6. Public schooling;
  7. Federal grants;
  8. Economic regulations;
  9. Minimum-wage laws and price controls;
  10. Federal Reserve System;
  11. Paper money;
  12. Income taxation and the IRS;
  13. Trade restrictions;
  14. Immigration controls;
  15. The postal monopoly;
  16. Foreign aid;
  17. Foreign wars of aggression;
  18. Foreign occupations;
  19. An overseas military empire;
  20. A standing army and a military-industrial complex;
  21. Infringements on civil liberties;
  22. Military detentions and denial of due process and jury trials for citizens and non-citizens accused of crimes;
  23. Torture and sex abuse of prisoners;
  24. Secret kidnappings and “renditions” to brutal foreign regimes for purposes of torture;
  25. Secret torture centers around the world;
  26. Secret courts and secret judicial proceedings;
  27. Warrantless wiretapping of citizens and non-citizens;
  28. Violations of the Constitution and Bill of Rights for purposes of “national security”; and
  29. Out-of-control federal spending to pay for all this.

The Libertarian:

I’m a libertarian. I believe in individual liberty, free markets, private property, and limited government. Period. No exceptions.

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
(sent to me by a friend)

The Conservative:

I’m a conservative. I believe in individual liberty, free markets, private property, and limited government, except for:

  1. Social Security;
  2. Medicare;
  3. Medicaid;
  4. Welfare;
  5. Drug laws;
  6. Public schooling;
  7. Federal grants;
  8. Economic regulations;
  9. Minimum-wage laws and price controls;
  10. Federal Reserve System;
  11. Paper money;
  12. Income taxation and the IRS;
  13. Trade restrictions;
  14. Immigration controls;
  15. The postal monopoly;
  16. Foreign aid;
  17. Foreign wars of aggression;
  18. Foreign occupations;
  19. An overseas military empire;
  20. A standing army and a military-industrial complex;
  21. Infringements on civil liberties;
  22. Military detentions and denial of due process and jury trials for citizens and non-citizens accused of crimes;
  23. Torture and sex abuse of prisoners;
  24. Secret kidnappings and “renditions” to brutal foreign regimes for purposes of torture;
  25. Secret torture centers around the world;
  26. Secret courts and secret judicial proceedings;
  27. Warrantless wiretapping of citizens and non-citizens;
  28. Violations of the Constitution and Bill of Rights for purposes of “national security”; and
  29. Out-of-control federal spending to pay for all this.

The Libertarian:

I’m a libertarian. I believe in individual liberty, free markets, private property, and limited government. Period. No exceptions. [/quote]

LOL - Obviously not written by a conservative . . .

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Conservatism began in the enlightenment as a reaction to the classical liberal movement against monarchism. Traditionally conservatives wanted to preserve the elitist order.[/quote]

LOL - Lifti, I love your simplifications!

Conservatism in Britain was born out of the philosophies and writings of Edmund Burke, Thomas Hobbes, John Locke and David Hume, from France it was Jospeh-Marie De Maistre and Louis de Bonald, and from Germany it was Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel. This were not the writings and thoughts of men who sought to maintain the elitist order - you need to do some study.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
^ excellent post Sloth - I love De Tocueville’s writings!

I would say that my post was based the idea of the individual within a limited government framework . . . maybe I just suck as a writer . . . :([/quote]

Hah! No, no, you’re fine. I guess I’m just trying to caution as to what language Conservatism should use to explain itself. How it differs from the libertarian and the Leftist. Maybe it’s being too picky, but I can’t help but feel that this is important for those who’d call conservatism their home. Out of my excerpt, it boils down to this:

“Tocqueville’s analysis suggests that those concerned with the rise of the tutelary State should not defend individualism as such–but instead, defend associational life and the spirit of self-government that it engenders. The spirit of liberty that impels individuals toward the liberation born of freedom from obligations and responsibility finally makes us servile dependents upon the State.”

I’m becoming alarmed with the ‘conservative’ language today. Sometimes, I could swear–accepting their language–that Ayn Rand (or, Rothbard…) was the saint of conservatism. When, it seems to me, conservatism should see such philosophy as bringing about the very thing it rages against. The ‘tutelary state.’
[/quote]

I am confused. Would a tutelary state only provide protection/defense or does it provide everything from basic neccessities of life all the way to military defense?

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Conservatism began in the enlightenment as a reaction to the classical liberal movement against monarchism. Traditionally conservatives wanted to preserve the elitist order.[/quote]

LOL - Lifti, I love your simplifications!

Conservatism in Britain was born out of the philosophies and writings of Edmund Burke, Thomas Hobbes, John Locke and David Hume, from France it was Jospeh-Marie De Maistre and Louis de Bonald, and from Germany it was Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel. This were not the writings and thoughts of men who sought to maintain the elitist order - you need to do some study.
[/quote]

Classically, conservatives rejected the idea that anyone could govern. They were most definitely monarchists. Their ideas have transformed over time and now there is almost nothing left of the original movement. There is no defining quality to what it means to be a conservative anymore.

I have studied and continue to study ideas.

Classically, conservatives rejected the idea that anyone could govern. They were most definitely monarchists. - those would be mutually exclusive statements - care to rephrase?

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
I think a uniting feature is the politics of decline- that somehow, the golden years exist in the past, and the polity should return to that time period by engaging in certain policies.

This, I believe, is ‘a’, not ‘the’, defining feature.[/quote]

wow - really? You obviously drank the kool-aid . . . The historical perspective of conservatism is not based on the claim that “the golden years exist in the past”, but and acknowledgement that the limited American government that was originally established should be adhered to so that our future can be even brighter and more glorious than any period in our past.
[/quote]

I don’t think you realize how hilarious this response is. Aside from the kool-aid jibe, you basically just re-stated my position that a prime element of conservative thinking is in the re-adoption of the policies of the past.

You seem to beleive these policies will somehow lead to a better future, instead of leading to the same problems of the era they existed in (1950’s, 1920’s… 1790’s) and the (often governmental) remedy the people of that time chose. This is noteworthy.

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
I think a uniting feature is the politics of decline- that somehow, the golden years exist in the past, and the polity should return to that time period by engaging in certain policies.

This, I believe, is ‘a’, not ‘the’, defining feature.[/quote]

wow - really? You obviously drank the kool-aid . . . The historical perspective of conservatism is not based on the claim that “the golden years exist in the past”, but and acknowledgement that the limited American government that was originally established should be adhered to so that our future can be even brighter and more glorious than any period in our past.
[/quote]

I don’t think you realize how hilarious this response is. Aside from the kool-aid jibe, you basically just re-stated my position that a prime element of conservative thinking is in the re-adoption of the policies of the past.

You seem to beleive these policies will somehow lead to a better future, instead of leading to the same problems of the era they existed in (1950’s, 1920’s… 1790’s) and the (often governmental) remedy the people of that time chose. This is noteworthy.[/quote]

The roaring 20’s, the great economic growth of the 50’s - what were you trying to state here?

one question, is american conservatisme the same as in western europa?

norwegian conservativisme is based on Edmund Burkes idees. And as far as I know he was not a royalist, but he rejected the violence in the french revolution. fun fact: He was actually for self-rule in India.

as a side note: the norwegian conservatives have always been elitist. In 1884 norway got parlamentarisme, It ment that the swedish king ( Norway was in union with Sweden untill 1905 ) was not above the parlament. It was the liberalists who fought this trough. The liberal party ( venstre ) consisted of farmers, smallbussines men and workers. While the conservative party (hoeyre ) consisted of hig ranking officials ( the elite in norway in this period ). The conservatives where against parlamentarisme and against Norwegian indipendence from Sweden. When Norway truly trancended to capitalisme, the conservative party became the party for this new burgeois elite. The conservatives where all over the place over the hitler issue in the 1930`s. the conservative youth organisation celebrated Hitler as an savior of europa from the socialists ( because Hitler sent union members and socialists to concentration camps ). It was first when Norway got occupied by germany in 1940 that the conservatist got the anti-nazi flue, but it was because of patriotisme not because of prinsipps. The funny thing is that on the other hand is that the first jew to ever be a member of the norwegian parlament was a conservative. well then you guys know a bit more about norwegian conservativisme.
ps. today hoeyre is i reality a socialliberal party, but it still represents the interrests of the elite.

conservative and liberal as description of an individual’s political stance vary from country to country and government type to government type. A conservative in the Weimar Republic is different from a conservative in the Soviet Union is different from a conservative in the Monarchy of England.

Conservatism as historical political movement in Western Civilization is more narrow in scope/definition and even more narrow when seen as a political philosophy. For a perfect example - the founders of the American Republic were classical liberals which is defined today as conservatism.

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
The term has indeed lost its meaning. Here’s your problem area right here:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

  1. If a conservative can be a social libertarian and a ‘fiscal conservative’ why isn’t he simply a libertarian? In my experience fiscal conservatism is used to mean ‘economic liberalism.’ So, if one is both a social and economic liberal, why does one choose the label conservative? Why is it more accurate than libertarian? Is it libertarianism hijacking conservatism?

  2. Now if fiscal conservatism (economic liberalism) isn’t the distinguishing feature, is not social conservatism then the necessary identifier in discerning between the two, libertarianism and conservatism?
    [/quote]

I describe myself as a fiscal conservative but a social libertarian. Over the years a person with this philosophy has been described as a Rockefeller Republican, Nixon Republican, liberal Republican, moderate, or libertarian. Today we’re just called RINOs. The dividing line seems to be the social issues. Unless you’re on board with the social planks of the Republican party, then you’re a RINO and no longer welcome.

Given my vigorous defense of evolution in the other thread one would think I was a raving Democrat. Nope. I used to be a registered Republican - shocking isn’t it? I’m now an independent. Last election I voted for McCain because I believe he was, and continues to be a moderate. I thought Sarah Palin was, and is, an idiot. I don’t think conservatism has been hijacked by libertarians but just the opposite - the libertarians within the Republican party have been pushed out by the radical conservatives. These radical conservatives are made up of - wait for my favorite phrase - batshit crazy religious fundamentalists. [/quote]

Other than voting for John Mccain I totally agree with you, Why I did not vote for John McCain is because he admitted to not knowning how to operate a computer. McCain has no idea what it is like to be what I call middle class

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
(sent to me by a friend)

The Conservative:

I’m a conservative. I believe in individual liberty, free markets, private property, and limited government, except for:

  1. Social Security;
  2. Medicare;
  3. Medicaid;
  4. Welfare;
  5. Drug laws;
  6. Public schooling;
  7. Federal grants;
  8. Economic regulations;
  9. Minimum-wage laws and price controls;
  10. Federal Reserve System;
  11. Paper money;
  12. Income taxation and the IRS;
  13. Trade restrictions;
  14. Immigration controls;
  15. The postal monopoly;
  16. Foreign aid;
  17. Foreign wars of aggression;
  18. Foreign occupations;
  19. An overseas military empire;
  20. A standing army and a military-industrial complex;
  21. Infringements on civil liberties;
  22. Military detentions and denial of due process and jury trials for citizens and non-citizens accused of crimes;
  23. Torture and sex abuse of prisoners;
  24. Secret kidnappings and “renditions” to brutal foreign regimes for purposes of torture;
  25. Secret torture centers around the world;
  26. Secret courts and secret judicial proceedings;
  27. Warrantless wiretapping of citizens and non-citizens;
  28. Violations of the Constitution and Bill of Rights for purposes of “national security”; and
  29. Out-of-control federal spending to pay for all this.

The Libertarian:

I’m a libertarian. I believe in individual liberty, free markets, private property, and limited government. Period. No exceptions. [/quote]

1 I see conservatism as being frugal with the money period. Example to live in a society that is uneducated would cost more than the tax because of crime and security

2 if you can collectively build a road school the children or treat the sick and injured cheaper than you can with the free market then that would be the conservative thing to do

3 There is only one way to win a war and that is to make a profit at it.

4 We should enjoy as much freedom as possible, with the exception of it all being at someone else’s expense

5 free markets do not mean that no regulations are placed on the market. Free market means an environment that is conducive to a healthy private sector. The market has demonstrated time and again that it is mostly irresponsible for its own actions and can be very predatory

6 True limited governments would be anemic with no direction; it would be like living in Afghanistan or Somalia

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Classically, conservatives rejected the idea that anyone could govern. They were most definitely monarchists. - those would be mutually exclusive statements - care to rephrase?[/quote]

They did not want just anyone to govern. They were monarchists. They were elitists.

I think you just misunderstood the statement the way it was originally stated. Is it more clear now?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
1 I see conservatism as being frugal with the money period. Example to live in a society that is uneducated would cost more than the tax because of crime and security[/quote]

What? You think the government is doing a good job with education right now? Why do people think that just because people don’t want the state to do something that they don’t want it to be done? Let’s try to solve our problems peacefully instead of with the force of government, please.

If you could, I may agree. However, this is not the case with most of these.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean.

Agreed here.

Yes, FREE markets DO mean that little or no regulations are placed on it. Markets however can and do still exist with regulations, albeit in a more flawed and inefficient way. Why are you referring to the market as if it’s an entity by itself and not the result of voluntary interaction in a marketplace between consenting people?

You obviously have no clue what limited government means. Somalia collapsed into chaos, it was not transitioned into a smaller government.

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
The term has indeed lost its meaning. Here’s your problem area right here:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

  1. If a conservative can be a social libertarian and a ‘fiscal conservative’ why isn’t he simply a libertarian? In my experience fiscal conservatism is used to mean ‘economic liberalism.’ So, if one is both a social and economic liberal, why does one choose the label conservative? Why is it more accurate than libertarian? Is it libertarianism hijacking conservatism?

  2. Now if fiscal conservatism (economic liberalism) isn’t the distinguishing feature, is not social conservatism then the necessary identifier in discerning between the two, libertarianism and conservatism?
    [/quote]

I describe myself as a fiscal conservative but a social libertarian. Over the years a person with this philosophy has been described as a Rockefeller Republican, Nixon Republican, liberal Republican, moderate, or libertarian. Today we’re just called RINOs. The dividing line seems to be the social issues. Unless you’re on board with the social planks of the Republican party, then you’re a RINO and no longer welcome.

Given my vigorous defense of evolution in the other thread one would think I was a raving Democrat. Nope. I used to be a registered Republican - shocking isn’t it? I’m now an independent. Last election I voted for McCain because I believe he was, and continues to be a moderate. I thought Sarah Palin was, and is, an idiot. I don’t think conservatism has been hijacked by libertarians but just the opposite - the libertarians within the Republican party have been pushed out by the radical conservatives. These radical conservatives are made up of - wait for my favorite phrase - batshit crazy religious fundamentalists. [/quote]

This post, really. And it’s sad really, neo-con is actually a perfect way to describe a lot of today’s conservatives. The problem we face now is that a lot of these same neo-cons are starting to call themselves libertarian, and the lie is glaringly obvious. I hope libertarians don’t go the way of the conservatives, the true conservatives still deserve a voice.

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
I’m a libertarian. I believe in individual liberty, free markets, private property, and limited government. Period. No exceptions. [/quote]

Excessive individual liberty is exactly why you’ll never see a limited government again. What replaces the nanny state? Intact families? Hardly. Who takes care of the elderly? Intact families, with children to care for their own parents in their elderly years, at the expense of their own comfort? Hardly. Who cares for the pregnant mother in the poor/lower class home? The present father? Hardly

And this is what the social liberal can’t admit. It’s so glaringly obvious, too. The selling of social liberalism gutted the institutions allowing for a limited government. Turned them into a husk, an empty shell of their glory. That’s why libertarianism has no chance in ever realizing it’s goal of tearing down the nanny state. It’s your social liberalism that has destroyed the civic/private institutions that could’ve filled the void. Thanks guys, for a powerful nanny state.

Do me a favor. I’d ask that any libertarian considering a reply to include in that response exactly what would replace the nanny state.