Confused about Daily Carbs

Diet and Nutrition
1

My training revolves around a 50:50 split between weights and sprint (hill/flat), and I’m trying to plan my daily nutrition again due to starting a new job this week in an office. As things stand, I’ll be taking in around 200-220 g of protein daily, and just under 300 g of carbs, including in the post-workout shake. Whilst these carbs are all low-GI (oats, wholemeal bread, wholemeal wraps etc), I’m concerned that this level of intake is high?

I’m making sure to eat every 2-3 hours with 30g protein in each serving, but my main concern is having around 60g of low-GI carbs with dinner. I read in some studies that evening carbs are the devil’s work, and other studies say that they’re no bad thing and it’s more about your overall daily intake… what would you think? For what it’s worth, I’m around 75 kg and 10.5 percent.

2

Carbs won’t kill you. Your lifting and doing sprints, carbs are helpful. Dinner carbs are not evil, you won’t get fat just because you ate some potatoes for dinner provided your calories are where they should be.

3

I think the biggest debate about carbs in the evening was whether or not they effect the nocturnal release of GH…I believe I have read prj’s indicating that the pituitary gland will secrete it in the deepest stages of sleep regardless… My guess is that sometimes eating carbs later in the evening can sometimes prevent one from reaching that “delta” wave depth of sleep where GH is suppsoed to be released…Tbh, I feel like if I eat too much carbs on the backend of the day, I don’t get that restful nights sleep…Test it out… It won’t be stored as fat, especially if your training later in the day as de novo lipogenesis is pretty much impossible post workout…

4

In the long run, it matters little.

5

[quote]fisch wrote:
Carbs won’t kill you. Your lifting and doing sprints, carbs are helpful. Dinner carbs are not evil, you won’t get fat just because you ate some potatoes for dinner provided your calories are where they should be.[/quote]

Neither will he get fat if he eats carbs at breakfast, second meal of the day, third meal of the day, fourth meal of the day, and so on (depending on how many meals he eats).

People have been losing and gaining weight eating carbs at EVERY meal for a LONG time.

People can worry all day and fret about “insulin spikes” (did it ever occur to anyone that insulin is secreted when protein is ingested as well?), insulin resistance (exactly how many on this board have diabetes?), carb timing, and the like, all they want, when most who entertain themselves with such matters are largely those who don’t even know how to design the most basic of diets for weight manipulation.

6

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]fisch wrote:
Carbs won’t kill you. Your lifting and doing sprints, carbs are helpful. Dinner carbs are not evil, you won’t get fat just because you ate some potatoes for dinner provided your calories are where they should be.[/quote]

Neither will he get fat if he eats carbs at breakfast, second meal of the day, third meal of the day, fourth meal of the day, and so on (depending on how many meals he eats).

People have been losing and gaining weight eating carbs at EVERY meal for a LONG time.

People can worry all day and fret about “insulin spikes” (did it ever occur to anyone that insulin is secreted when protein is ingested as well?), insulin resistance (exactly how many on this board have diabetes?), carb timing, and the like, all they want, when most who entertain themselves with such matters are largely those who don’t even know how to design the most basic of diets for weight manipulation. [/quote]

Do you feel the types of carbs play a role? when all things are equal ( calories, total carb intake)… and if so, would it require one to monitor their simple carb intake, compared to going by the body’s natural regulation when consuming slower digesting?

Obviously I have my thoughts on this, curious to get yours, and not to argue with you either.

7

Unfortunately no one can tell anyone how much carbohydrate one needs for optimal health and performance. Self experimentation is the only way to know this.

The human body can only store about 2000 calories as glycogen (as liver and muscle glycogen). This amount is enough for hours of intense activity depending on the level of training capacity. “Hitting the wall” is that point when muscle glycogen runs low and the brain becomes foggy because liver glycogen is being redirected to muscle activity rather than going to the brain as glucose. Keto-adapted individuals have an advantage here because they will be able to use fat and ketone bodies to fuel exercise and brain function rather than glycogen.

Depending on how much glycogen has been depleted by exercise will depend how much carbohydrate (or protein) needs to be eaten to replenish it (keto-adapted individuals require much less because they are more efficient at using glycogen). Excess protein and carbohydrate is stored as fat if glycogen levels are already full.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/1917743?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/2308519?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

http://www.ajcn.org/content/48/2/240.abstract

http://www.jappl.org/content/99/2/707.short

8

While I favor lower carb approach for the masses, carb intake is individual. But, since the masses are not active and not lean, IMO lower carb approach is best.

That said, there’s obviously examples of past cultures getting a large % of their calories from unprocessed carbs and being just fine.

Though I would be curious as to total grams, rather than a % base.

9

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Unfortunately no one can tell anyone how much carbohydrate one needs for optimal health and performance. Self experimentation is the only way to know this.

The human body can only store about 2000 calories as glycogen (as liver and muscle glycogen). This amount is enough for hours of intense activity depending on the level of training capacity. “Hitting the wall” is that point when muscle glycogen runs low and the brain becomes foggy because liver glycogen is being redirected to muscle activity rather than going to the brain as glucose. Keto-adapted individuals have an advantage here because they will be able to use fat and ketone bodies to fuel exercise and brain function rather than glycogen.

Depending on how much glycogen has been depleted by exercise will depend how much carbohydrate (or protein) needs to be eaten to replenish it (keto-adapted individuals require much less because they are more efficient at using glycogen). Excess protein and carbohydrate is stored as fat if glycogen levels are already full.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/1917743?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/2308519?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

http://www.jappl.org/content/99/2/707.short[/quote]

Do you think Keifer is full of shit, or is he on to something?

10

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Unfortunately no one can tell anyone how much carbohydrate one needs for optimal health and performance. Self experimentation is the only way to know this.

The human body can only store about 2000 calories as glycogen (as liver and muscle glycogen). This amount is enough for hours of intense activity depending on the level of training capacity. “Hitting the wall” is that point when muscle glycogen runs low and the brain becomes foggy because liver glycogen is being redirected to muscle activity rather than going to the brain as glucose. Keto-adapted individuals have an advantage here because they will be able to use fat and ketone bodies to fuel exercise and brain function rather than glycogen.

Depending on how much glycogen has been depleted by exercise will depend how much carbohydrate (or protein) needs to be eaten to replenish it (keto-adapted individuals require much less because they are more efficient at using glycogen). Excess protein and carbohydrate is stored as fat if glycogen levels are already full.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/1917743?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/2308519?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

http://www.jappl.org/content/99/2/707.short[/quote]

Do you think Keifer is full of shit, or is he on to something?
[/quote]

I don’t know who he is but based on his name I assume he advocates the use of a fermented milk product called kefir…?

Fermented food is supposedly good for gut bacteria and hence digestion but one could source it from naturally fermented vegetable products like pickles, sour kraut, or kimchi. I do eat these products and enjoy them in abundance.

As far as any other claims to eating kefir for health purposes I have no idea.

11

John Keifer, they won’t let me link to his site, but he authored Carb Night Solution and Carb Back Loading. Here’s the link to the backloading thread on this site:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_nutrition_supplements/carb_back_loading?id=4968863&pageNo=0

I guess if you are not familiar with him you wouldn’t have a comment, but I thought from some of your posts you might have been. Thanks, though.

12

Weird, you misspelled his name and that’s why I thought you were referring to some TNATION alias and also the fermented drink.

I would not follow his suggestions but that’s because I don’t feel well after eating carb rich foods.

13

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
That said, there’s obviously examples of past cultures getting a large % of their calories from unprocessed carbs and being just fine.
[/quote]

Yes and it is dependent on geographical location.

I cannot see tribes like the Inuit subsisting on any carbohydrate and there is sufficient evidence to back this up.

But there would have been higher carbohydrate consumption in more temperate areas and would have depended on season; things like potatoes and wild seeds could not be available year round. I cannot see how seed based foods would have been preferred due to difficulty in extracting nutrients from them. Without processing technology it’s easier to make beer with grains than it is to make bread.

Pacific Island tribes probably ate more carbohydrate like fruit, taro and other widely available root vegetables; and also a lot of fat from coconut and plenty of ocean-based foods. They were higher in carbohydrate and lower in fat and protein. We could classify these as “paleo diets” even though they ate more carbohydrate than what modern advocates do.

Notice a trend what is not eaten (or severly limited) by these tribes?

Highly refined sugars; excessive omega 6 PUFA; alcohol; and seed based foods, in general.

I could be onto something…

14

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]fisch wrote:
Carbs won’t kill you. Your lifting and doing sprints, carbs are helpful. Dinner carbs are not evil, you won’t get fat just because you ate some potatoes for dinner provided your calories are where they should be.[/quote]

Neither will he get fat if he eats carbs at breakfast, second meal of the day, third meal of the day, fourth meal of the day, and so on (depending on how many meals he eats).

People have been losing and gaining weight eating carbs at EVERY meal for a LONG time.

People can worry all day and fret about “insulin spikes” (did it ever occur to anyone that insulin is secreted when protein is ingested as well?), insulin resistance (exactly how many on this board have diabetes?), carb timing, and the like, all they want, when most who entertain themselves with such matters are largely those who don’t even know how to design the most basic of diets for weight manipulation. [/quote]

Do you feel the types of carbs play a role? when all things are equal ( calories, total carb intake)… and if so, would it require one to monitor their simple carb intake, compared to going by the body’s natural regulation when consuming slower digesting?

Obviously I have my thoughts on this, curious to get yours, and not to argue with you either.[/quote]

I don’t like arguing about a lifestyle–what’s supposed to be positive–either.

I’m actually not sure about your questions. I guess for body composition concerns it MIGHT not matter what kind of carbs you take in. Anyway, I don’t think anyone is inclined to take hundredds of grams of simple carbs per day with their meals and they don’t provide as much satiety and control of hunger as complex carbs. (Are people inclined to eat a steak and three fruits?)

I don’t look into everything in so much detail. I eat one or two pieces of fruits a day and the rest of carbs from starches and veggies, as I recommend others do.

15

I’m in my pre contest diet right now. I started 10 weeks ago and 7 more until the contest. I am own to 197.8 from a starting point of 206.
My body fat is around 7-8%.

Believe me, I eat carbs. Calories are most important, then protein needs and then carbs/fat. I eat veggies with protein almost every night. My starchier carbs are earlier in day (yams, beans etc)