Confederate Flag: Pride or Bigotry?

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Again, bullshit revisionist history. Without slavery, there’s no war. None. There might be a crying, whining South every 20 years as the North dragged them out of the dark ages, but there’s certainly not the burning, ruined south of 1865.[/quote]

Right. Even Abraham said he wasn’t going to get rid of Slavery during his bid to become President. It was about returning to the Articles of Confederation (hence the confederacy)

Now if you’re to ignorant to understand that try going to school. I’m glad to see that public education is a high standard in NJ

[quote]We have not made it clear at all.

Between me, Thunder, and a couple of other people, we’ve “made clear that” the only people who believe that the war wasn’t fought for slavery are are bumbling retards who have given no facts, only their slanted, beyond ridiculous “opinions” of what they think it was about. The shit is so incredible they should have been quoted for “Confederates in the Attic.”

When did this board become infested with barely literate morons? [/quote]

Yes and you’ve come so prepared with your facts. I find it funny that even the President wasn’t going to abolish slavery and only did so with the Emancipation Proclamation to weaken the Southern effort and wasn’t even introduced into Law until over a year into the Civil War.

“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause.” The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, “Letter to Horace Greeley” (August 22, 1862), p. 388.

The South started the war because they felt the Government was intruding on their lives, if you’re to ignorant, stupid or both you can deny that fact. Try reading into the history as opposed to labeling everyone a “Redneck closet Confederate”

All I’ve seen from you is insults and a lack of proof to back up your claims, which are merely your opinions.

Again, public education is really doing it’s job. I really hope Obama gets rid of the No Child Left behind, all this standardized testing bullshit for more money is really killing our education

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Riddle me this, why is it ok, justified even, for thirteen colonies to violently break away from their rightful Monarch, but not ok for 11 states to leave a Union they voluntarily joined?[/quote]

for simple reason “blood in , blood out” yeah that’s how we roll in the US.

Here’s my question about the whole thing: Do you think there are people in England that fly the American flag? What about people in Spain that fly the Mexican flag? Then why the hell do people in America want to fly the Confederate flag?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
BBriere wrote:
…Then why the hell do people in America want to fly the Confederate flag?

Questions like these are often answered in what are commonly called the “posts” in the thread.[/quote]

Excellent post, would definitely recommend.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
pushharder wrote:
BBriere wrote:
…Then why the hell do people in America want to fly the Confederate flag?

Questions like these are often answered in what are commonly called the “posts” in the thread.

Excellent post, would definitely recommend.[/quote]

We agree.

Since this thread has been bumped…

I was in northern WI for the weekend. Met a man with a Confederate flag tied to his rear-view mirror. Anyone want to take a guess what kind of jokes he was telling?

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
Since this thread has been bumped…

I was in northern WI for the weekend. Met a man with a Confederate flag tied to his rear-view mirror. Anyone want to take a guess what kind of jokes he was telling? [/quote]

“So these two black guys walk into a bar, the bartender says…”

“Hey, what are you guys talking about?”

“…uh… and says ‘What’ll you fine gentlemen be having?’ and they paid their tab and could NOT have been more courteous”

[quote]Papa Nick wrote:
From my experience, it is a symbol of southern pride. Hunting, mudding, drinking and working hard. Nothing to do with race, except maybe a few that arnt “southern” to begin with.[/quote]

Forgot About dippin and chewin.

Time to put in a fat lip.

It’s just history…Nobody alive lived in the CSA, so it would be tough to have “pride” in it. People blow shit way out of proportion, it’s just a flag.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Well, they do mention other things leading up to the war.

�¢??Therefore such an organization must have resulted either in utter failure or in the total overthrow of the Government. The material prosperity of the North was greatly dependent on the Federal Government; that of the South not at all. In the first years of the Republic the navigating, commercial, and manufacturing interests of the North began to seek profit and aggrandizement at the expense of the agricultural interests. Even the owners of fishing smacks sought and obtained bounties for pursuing their own business (which yet continue), and $500,000 is now paid them annually out of the Treasury. The navigating interests begged for protection against foreign shipbuilders and against competition in the coasting trade. Congress granted both requests, and by prohibitory acts gave an absolute monopoly of this business to each of their interests, which they enjoy without diminution to this day. Not content with these great and unjust advantages, they have sought to throw the legitimate burden of their business as much as possible upon the public; they have succeeded in throwing the cost of light-houses, buoys, and the maintenance of their seamen upon the Treasury, and the Government now pays above $2,000,000 annually for the support of these objects. Theses interests, in connection with the commercial and manufacturing classes, have also succeeded, by means of subventions to mail steamers and the reduction in postage, in relieving their business from the payment of about $7,000,000 annually, throwing it upon the public Treasury under the name of postal deficiency. The manufacturing interests entered into the same struggle early, and has clamored steadily for Government bounties and special favors. This interest was confined mainly to the Eastern and Middle non-slave-holding States. Wielding these great States it held great power and influence, and its demands were in full proportion to its power. The manufacturers and miners wisely based their demands upon special facts and reasons rather than upon general principles, and thereby mollified much of the opposition of the opposing interest. They pleaded in their favor the infancy of their business in this country, the scarcity of labor and capital, the hostile legislation of other countries toward them, the great necessity of their fabrics in the time of war, and the necessity of high duties to pay the debt incurred in our war for independence. These reasons prevailed, and they received for many years enormous bounties by the general acquiescence of the whole country.

But when these reasons ceased they were no less clamorous for Government protection, but their clamors were less heeded-- the country had put the principle of protection upon trial and condemned it. After having enjoyed protection to the extent of from 15 to 200 per cent. upon their entire business for above thirty years, the act of 1846 was passed. It avoided sudden change, but the principle was settled, and free trade, low duties, and economy in public expenditures was the verdict of the American people. The South and the Northwestern States sustained this policy. There was but small hope of its reversal; upon the direct issue, none at all. �¢??
[/quote]

This is from the Georgia Declaration of Secession; I think looking at the whole document might be instructive, considering the extent to which slavery is mentioned as a primary cause so here it is in its entirety:

Why–if slavery is not their main grievance–do the Georgian secessionists lead off with it?
Why is the primary distinction they draw between non-slaveholding States and slaveholding states? As opposed to between Northern and Southern States or Agricultural and Industrial States?

The argument thus far boils down to: the anti-slavery party won and so we decided to revolt. The North is more powerful than us now so we’re taking our balls–err slaves–and going home.

This is like Democrats threatening to secede because Bush’s Republicans controlled both branches of the Legislature (and the Judiciary and Executive to boot). It would be as if Republicans threatened secession and revolution because a Black liberal president was voted into power by a majority of the American people…oh wait…

This is the crux of the issue–in a representative Democracy that was entered into freely by all States, the right to revolution and/or secession is not applicable simply because ones favored party lost the vote. That’s ridiculous.

summary: what you said, other reasons for secession

I could annotate the whole thing but its frankly not worth the effort. In quoting the whole document we see that though there’s an argument advanced about the North and its manufacturing interests using anti-slavery as a pretext to advance Federal power over the South, much of the argument for Georgia’s secession concerns slavery. Sans slavery there’d be no secession. The argument over slavery nearly prevented the Southern states from signing the Constitution in the first place.

wow…what an effort. impressive.

[quote]valiance. wrote:
lots of stuff[/quote]
I don’t think anyone has said that slavery wasn’t an issue. Just that it is a sub issue of a larger issue. The slavery issue was one about the right of a state to decide. Even in the territories, the south wanted the issue voted on and decided by the people there. The north was afraid of being out numbered by slave states and losing their power, hence they wanted to prevent slavery in the territories regardless of what the people there wanted.

Modern politics today do not compare to early in this countries history. However, the first â??republicanâ?? (in the founding fathers sense of the term) president did bring talk in the north of succession. The federalists had a monopoly on of power in the federal government for years after the constitution was signed, during which there was always talk of secession by southern states. However, the controlling power swung to the republicans with the election of Jefferson. And there was actually talk of succession by northern states.

It wasnâ??t so fun for the big government guys when they lost control of the federal government early on.

Jefferson then cut spending, eliminated taxes, and at the same time reduced the national debtâ?¦interesting.

But I think you miss the bigger point of me attempting to upset Irish. Itâ??s just good fun.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
BBriere wrote:
…Then why the hell do people in America want to fly the Confederate flag?

Questions like these are often answered in what are commonly called the “posts” in the thread.[/quote]

Ass

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
valiance. wrote:
lots of stuff
I don’t think anyone has said that slavery wasn’t an issue. Just that it is a sub issue of a larger issue. The slavery issue was one about the right of a state to decide. Even in the territories, the south wanted the issue voted on and decided by the people there. The north was afraid of being out numbered by slave states and losing their power, hence they wanted to prevent slavery in the territories regardless of what the people there wanted.

Modern politics today do not compare to early in this countries history. However, the first â??republicanâ?? (in the founding fathers sense of the term) president did bring talk in the north of succession. The federalists had a monopoly on of power in the federal government for years after the constitution was signed, during which there was always talk of secession by southern states. However, the controlling power swung to the republicans with the election of Jefferson. And there was actually talk of succession by northern states.

It wasnâ??t so fun for the big government guys when they lost control of the federal government early on.

Jefferson then cut spending, eliminated taxes, and at the same time reduced the national debtâ?¦interesting.

But I think you miss the bigger point of me attempting to upset Irish. Itâ??s just good fun.[/quote]

It’s the other way around. Not getting their way federally on the slavery issue led the Slave States to seek freedom from the Fed by espousing states’ rights. I’d say slavery is the primary issue which spawned the issue of state’s rights–look at the way the grievances are listed in the 2 documents we’ve discussed. In any case if the documents haven’t convinced you I certainly won’t be able to–and since you were just needling Irish anyway I’ll leave the thread at this.

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Its heritage. A symbol of a people who said “fuck off” to a federal government that was imposing taxation on them, taxation that crippled their economy. A symbol of a people who said that a government cannot tell people how they should live their lives if those in power have not walked a mile in their shoes. After all, what does a new yorker know about farming in the Deep South?[/quote]

Amazing how this idea was only put forth after 1876…

Read sources from the times… It was all about and had been all about the right to own other people. That was the economic system in the slave states. It was the way of life. It was based upon slavery.

Succession was threatened many times over the extension of slavery to other states.

Oh, and by the way… Succession wasn’t some noble thing… It was treason.

On the civil war:

The main reason for the war was slavery. The north was against slavery. That isn’t to say they supported blacks; from my understanding most northerners wanted blacks out of the united states.

There was just no real need for slaves in the north. In contrast slaves were the life blood of the south. Life would become a lot harder for southern whites if slavery was abolished.

Now the north had a history of pushing the south around. And northern power would be consolidated and spread to the western states if Lincoln won. And without slavery the south would be in no position to argue economically. In other words the south could only lose power if Lincoln won. Now if the north kept to itself then this wouldn’t be such a problem. But they insisted on pushing their values upon the south.

The south were at their peak. And they were being pushed around. If I knew that this was my last chance to stand up for myself I would take it. Just as the south did.

And I understand the bitterness towards the north. The north had little to lose by abolishing slavery. The south had everything to lose. Thus understandably they were pissed off with the north telling them what to do. Which is why many southerners who were against slavery fought for the south.

So slavery set everything off but I understand why people claim it wasn’t about slavery. Because really it was a power struggle; An economics problem. The slaves themselves weren’t important to the south. The economic power that the slaves generated was.

On succession:

I don’t think the south had proper representation. Of course I might be murdering the word just a little.

But if there are 5 of us and we get together to share resources etc and agree to solve our disagreements with a vote, and the other 4 form a voting bloc against me and always vote against me then I am not being represented. In fact I am being screwed. So I’m going to leave. And of course the other 4 are going to want to keep me. I’m going to tell them to fuck off. And rightfully so.