Been about two weeks on the hcg. At first I felt great improvements in libido and nocturnal erections. The past few days I have felt all that slide away and I have been much more emotional. Hoping it isn’t pointing to me having fried my nuts. This evening I am literally having fear wash over me and want to cry at sad songs. So other than me being a wuss I can’t help but winder if it is tanking testosterone, elevated e2 or even low e2.
Following this with interest
So if someone here had to guess as to the cause of feeling absolute despair, depression, misery and one of the things in my treatment, what would it be…
High E2
Low E2
Dropping T levels even though on HCG
Clomid
As a recap, last T shot was about 18 days ago. HCG was started again at 400mg eod. Clomid 25 mg ed was added about 1 week ago.
Thanks guys!
Had a bit of a scare today. Got lab results back and it said hematocrit was 60%. I ran up to urgent care and they drew again and they came up with 51%. Big difference. I thought they were gonna have to drain me dry. Not sure what could have caused that big of a difference. Anyone have any thoughts? I stay well hydrated.
Also other labs are trickling in and will update as received. Please comment if you notice anything during my restart attempt. Currently on 12.5mg Clomid and 20mg Nolva daily and it has been over 1 month since my last T shot. My libido and energy are lower than before but I am not in the same state of miserable lack of energy that I had when I last attempted a restart.
Hemoglobin 18.2 (13.6-18) rechecked 18.2
Hematocrit 60% (39.8-52) rechecked 51.8
Prolactin 17.03 (2-18) up from 11.3 last time…
PSA 1.11 (0-4)
Lab results in. Â On the day of my last hcg shot last week…
LH 0.2 (1.5-9.3)
FSH 0.7 (1.6-8)
DHT 19 (16-79)
E2 42 (-39)
TT 951 (250-1100)
FT 222 (35-155)
So. Â 400 iu of hcg seemed to have my testes producing but the Clomid and nolva don’t seem to be working on lh and fsh. Â Would that dose of hcg be enough to override the action of the Clomid and nolva and keep lh and fsh suppressed? Would this explain my feeling of a crash 5 days after the last hcg shot? Any thoughts on whether a restart is even worth my time or if I should try and figure out why the pituitary is screwed
And my estradiol was high which I thought wasn’t supposed to happen pct…
Well, HCG is useful initially during a restart to get the testicles working but then you have to stop it since it suppresses the HPTA (LH,FSH). Your testicles are working now so you should stop it and let your own LH/FSH rise and take over. The SERMs could be causing you to feel bad (depression and no libido are common side effects of SERMs) - this is common - and may do so for a few weeks after you stop them since they take a long time to leave your body.
[quote]seekonk wrote:
Well, HCG is useful initially during a restart to get the testicles working but then you have to stop it since it suppresses the HPTA (LH,FSH). Your testicles are working now so you should stop it and let your own LH/FSH rise and take over. The SERMs could be causing you to feel bad (depression and no libido are common side effects of SERMs) - this is common - and may do so for a few weeks after you stop them since they take a long time to leave your body. [/quote]
Thanks for the input! It has been a week now since my last HCG dose and I definitley feel the crash. Hopefully now the clomid and nolva will start to work. I am keeping the doses low (12.5 clomid and 20 nolva).
Does that seem like an ok dose of SERMs?
Anyone know how soon before I should see an increase in LH and FSH? If it should at least increase those in a week or so if my pituitary responds, then I don’t want to wait a month or two to test again. I realize there will be a lag in the testosterone levels, but I don’t want to keep messing with it if my LH and FSH don’t go up.
Thanks again
Alright guys. I know I need patience as it has only been two weeks since I stopped the hcg and have been on the Clomid and nolvadex but I swear I have crashed. No energy, moody as hell, body pains, my manhood has shrivelled, no energy or strength, etc. Two weeks ago my TT was over 900 on the hcg and I swear I felt that all dissapear five days off. So…
How soon should I see an increase in LH and FSH from the SERMs? I realize t levels will lag but is two weeks enough time to see if my pituitary will at least respond?
Thanks
It looks like your HPTA isn’t responding to the SERM very well but the only way to be sure is to get frequent labs.
The 12.5 mg of clomid is low for a restart. The 20 mg Nolvadex dose is fairly high, but it’s not as effective at raising T in some men.
Try a google search on Dr Shippen’s 7 day Clomid stimulation test. He expects some results within a week but he uses doses from 25 mg to as high as 100mg per day.
[quote]Freddy77 wrote:
It looks like your HPTA isn’t responding to the SERM very well but the only way to be sure is to get frequent labs.
The 12.5 mg of clomid is low for a restart. The 20 mg Nolvadex dose is fairly high, but it’s not as effective at raising T in some men.
Try a google search on Dr Shippen’s 7 day Clomid stimulation test. He expects some results within a week but he uses doses from 25 mg to as high as 100mg per day.[/quote]
Thanks. My doctor actually only wanted me on 50mg twice a week with no nolvadex cause he said it would mimic the pulsatile nature of lh and fsh. I bumped it to include daily dosing and the nolva. My doc wanted me to wait 4 more weeks for blood but I ordered some and I am getting it tomorrow. The new round of also have bad heat flashes and soaking my sheets has me sure of a major imbalance.
Although libido has dropped, I have a little more energy now. Just got back LH and FSH results after 2.5 weeks on SERMs
LH 3.5 (1.7-8.6)
FSH 2.4 (1.5-12.4)
Not great, but my LH has never been above 1.1 even before treatment so hopefully it is a sign that things are working.
TT 364 (348-1197),
FT 9.9 (6.8-21.5),
DHEA-S 418 High (102-416),
E2 17.4.
So it looks like two weeks of SERMS have kept some production going but my DHEA is high and has been even higher at various times in the past. Not sure about that. I assume continue with SERMs and check again in a month?
Well the Clomid sides seemed to have intensified. So I stopped. I am taking nolva instead but fear it also impacts me some. I have been on the SERMs for a month so I am wondering if that is enough.
I also just found out my TSH has jumped from a steady 1.9 to 4.3. Gotta figure out wtf with that
[quote]cirerecrem wrote:
Well the Clomid sides seemed to have intensified. So I stopped. I am taking nolva instead but fear it also impacts me some. I have been on the SERMs for a month so I am wondering if that is enough.
I also just found out my TSH has jumped from a steady 1.9 to 4.3. Gotta figure out wtf with that[/quote]
Nolva can cause loss of libido and other side effects while you are taking it so you can’t evaluate success while you are on it. You should finish the course, wait a month or two for the nolva to completely leave you system, and then you can evaluate how you feel.
Be careful you don’t overdose on the Nolva. 10 mg Nolva is at least as strong as 50 mg clomid, so a little goes a long way. You can probably even quarter the nolvadex and still get good results.
[quote]seekonk wrote:
[quote]cirerecrem wrote:
Well the Clomid sides seemed to have intensified. So I stopped. I am taking nolva instead but fear it also impacts me some. I have been on the SERMs for a month so I am wondering if that is enough.
I also just found out my TSH has jumped from a steady 1.9 to 4.3. Gotta figure out wtf with that[/quote]
Nolva can cause loss of libido and other side effects while you are taking it so you can’t evaluate success while you are on it. You should finish the course, wait a month or two for the nolva to completely leave you system, and then you can evaluate how you feel.
Be careful you don’t overdose on the Nolva. 10 mg Nolva is at least as strong as 50 mg clomid, so a little goes a long way. You can probably even quarter the nolvadex and still get good results. [/quote]
Seekonk, thanks for stopping by. I fear I am going to go back on TRT. It has been 2 months since my last shot and everything just keeps getting worse. I swear my genitalia look shrunken, my body has softened, lost muscle mass, no libido or erectiions, short of breath, and my moods are horrible. I am still in a bad state from withdrawing from benzos so I am should have waited a year to try and be stable and healed. I am trying to do too many things at once and it is screwing me up.
Maybe this restart would have worked, but I have done 2 months and feel like hell. In my anxiety ridden state I can’t give it 2 more months or I will be back on benzos. Plus like I have wondered mahy times, what are the odds of me having any success being 40 years old, having a pituitary that always pumped out below normal LH my entire adult life and have been on TRT for almost 2 years???
Well, I had some bloodwork and it looks like my thyroid may be a little out of whack now…
Tsh. 4.29 (.7-4)
Ft4 1.7 (.2-1.7)
Ft3 3
Alkaline phosphatase 34 low
Tpo antibodies 6 (less than 30)
[quote]cirerecrem wrote:
[quote]seekonk wrote:
[quote]cirerecrem wrote:
Well the Clomid sides seemed to have intensified. So I stopped. I am taking nolva instead but fear it also impacts me some. I have been on the SERMs for a month so I am wondering if that is enough.
I also just found out my TSH has jumped from a steady 1.9 to 4.3. Gotta figure out wtf with that[/quote]
Nolva can cause loss of libido and other side effects while you are taking it so you can’t evaluate success while you are on it. You should finish the course, wait a month or two for the nolva to completely leave you system, and then you can evaluate how you feel.
Be careful you don’t overdose on the Nolva. 10 mg Nolva is at least as strong as 50 mg clomid, so a little goes a long way. You can probably even quarter the nolvadex and still get good results. [/quote]
Seekonk, thanks for stopping by. I fear I am going to go back on TRT. It has been 2 months since my last shot and everything just keeps getting worse. I swear my genitalia look shrunken, my body has softened, lost muscle mass, no libido or erectiions, short of breath, and my moods are horrible. I am still in a bad state from withdrawing from benzos so I am should have waited a year to try and be stable and healed. I am trying to do too many things at once and it is screwing me up.
Maybe this restart would have worked, but I have done 2 months and feel like hell. In my anxiety ridden state I can’t give it 2 more months or I will be back on benzos. Plus like I have wondered mahy times, what are the odds of me having any success being 40 years old, having a pituitary that always pumped out below normal LH my entire adult life and have been on TRT for almost 2 years???
[/quote]
The priority right now is of course to stay off benzos, so if you need to get back on TRT to do that then that’s fine IMO. I just wonder if some of your symptoms aren’t benzo withdrawal (which can be protracted for some people) as opposed to TRT withdrawal. Do they resolve with TRT?
Wow your symptoms are incredibly similar to mine. See my thread as I have plenty labs to compare against. My estradiol levels are unmeasurable which I thought strange. Next week I’m going away from my regular family doctor to a HRT doctor with all my blood work and go from there. My doc just wants to throw test at me and I think it could be a smaller simpler problem. Anyways, my point is that I feel you 100% concerning the anxiety. I always have Xanax on hand for bad days. I just don’t get it I want so badly to be my old joking around self… It’s almost like I look forward to trying to find a fix but yet it terrifies me at the same time as it seems like a big experimentation… I also would highly recommend deep breathing and getting on a good fish oil. The breathing sounds silly but it does curb anxiety when it get bad trust me. Those 2 things have made a noticeable difference alone. Also, I have been following the thyroid sticky as well as I have super low temps so be to look into that as well. I wish you well in this new year. Sorry no real answers mostly just fodder but just want you to know your not alone in the struggle. I have learned so much about the body from this site and others but sometimes feel even more confused because of it lol!
why not just do the HCG if that’s working? You could taper it a bit to get free T somewhere towards the top of the range.
[quote]seekonk wrote:
[quote]cirerecrem wrote:
[quote]seekonk wrote:
[quote]cirerecrem wrote:
Well the Clomid sides seemed to have intensified. So I stopped. I am taking nolva instead but fear it also impacts me some. I have been on the SERMs for a month so I am wondering if that is enough.
I also just found out my TSH has jumped from a steady 1.9 to 4.3. Gotta figure out wtf with that[/quote]
Nolva can cause loss of libido and other side effects while you are taking it so you can’t evaluate success while you are on it. You should finish the course, wait a month or two for the nolva to completely leave you system, and then you can evaluate how you feel.
Be careful you don’t overdose on the Nolva. 10 mg Nolva is at least as strong as 50 mg clomid, so a little goes a long way. You can probably even quarter the nolvadex and still get good results. [/quote]
Seekonk, thanks for stopping by. I fear I am going to go back on TRT. It has been 2 months since my last shot and everything just keeps getting worse. I swear my genitalia look shrunken, my body has softened, lost muscle mass, no libido or erectiions, short of breath, and my moods are horrible. I am still in a bad state from withdrawing from benzos so I am should have waited a year to try and be stable and healed. I am trying to do too many things at once and it is screwing me up.
Maybe this restart would have worked, but I have done 2 months and feel like hell. In my anxiety ridden state I can’t give it 2 more months or I will be back on benzos. Plus like I have wondered mahy times, what are the odds of me having any success being 40 years old, having a pituitary that always pumped out below normal LH my entire adult life and have been on TRT for almost 2 years???
[/quote]
The priority right now is of course to stay off benzos, so if you need to get back on TRT to do that then that’s fine IMO. I just wonder if some of your symptoms aren’t benzo withdrawal (which can be protracted for some people) as opposed to TRT withdrawal. Do they resolve with TRT? [/quote]
Seekonk, you sound like you have some experience with benzos! Yes I am very sure protracted withdrawal is a major part and many of mt symptoms mimic many others in my boat - I expect at least a few more months of it. But with that I am extra sensitive to change. I took a t shot last Friday and this Monday and haven’t had a SERM in a week. I have had the best two days I have had in months. So TRT may not be the answer but it is one factor I can keep stable while all my systems heal. Ideally I would see if my t could recover but I really don’t want to go through the pure hell it adds right now. I told my doc I was probably a little to ambitious in trying a restart 2 months off the benzos…