College Produces Dilberts

Off Topic
41

I’m in college, and I completely agree with you. It is as useless expenditure of time, I am learning things that not only aren’t interesting, but also quite useless, for the most part - except the building blocks like mathematics, statistics, phyisics.

In any case, sale ability is not related to having gotten a college degree, I’m afraid. I’ve always been a sufficiently good worker in most places, but when I had to do sales, I performed pretty poorly, simply because I dislike to convince people to buy things: I think it’s up to them to decide. Not a good sales philosophy, I know - I also know that sales is not my realm.

42

I also do not think that there can be classes on time management. I have been able to manage my time since I was a 4 years old, shit fuck. I can’t believe any body would need a class for that.

43

[quote]PGJ wrote:
…Colleges exist to make money. That’s it. The military academies are the exception (I can’t think of another school where EVERY student addends for free).

…
[/quote]

The Milton Hershey School offers free tuition, room, board and medical care to its K-12 students and then pays for their college if they choose to attend.

44

[quote]Captain Glanton wrote:
I teach at a Big Ten University as I finish writing my dissertation.

There’s so much in this thread that just misrepresents how teaching is handled in a college classroom. We don’t tell students how much money they’re worth or that they’re worth any money; no one talks about that. In fact, the biggest problem is that so many students come into class and onto campus thinking about money first. I can see on a lot of faces what that guy said in the interview: 60K a year and a three car garage are all that’s on their mind. Because of that, we have to spend a lot of the classroom time just fighting to get them to think about the subject we’re trying to teach.

So many people teach at Universities because we love the thing we teach and would rather do that than have a lot of material things. Much of the time the predetermined expectations of our students are the biggest obstacles to doing that.[/quote]

Don’t you think that the necessity of a compromise between the pure interest and the pure practice actually causes a worse situation than if there was a complete split between the two branches? I think that many courses that are considered to be mainstream due to their pertainance to a status-ridden cathegory suffer of a lack of depth. I also think that nothing can be done to save this situation: if we try to split the higher educational system into a learning-oriented an a practicing-oriented side, two things are likely to occur, one the opposite of the other: either the people that enjoy learning for its sake will be constricted by the future demands and expectations to embark on the practical degree; or the practical degree will lose its social value and therefore everybody will divert its attention towards the learning-oriented one, reverting the situation to its starting point.

45

[quote]shadyniner wrote:
He has since gone on to bad mouth the company and the boss for not paying us what we are worth. He wants a double digit bonus (at least 15%), and he wants his base pay to be at least 45. For what? We have done what was asked of us and have done a good job, but to think that we need a nearly 10k increase in pay and double digit bonuses is a little excessive.
[/quote]

He should not badmouth the company or boss. That imprudent, if nothing else. As far as “excessive” goes, it really depends. Can he make 45 elsewhere? Does he bust his ass and add value to the company? It really is driven by market forces. When I graduated, I started out at a much lower salary than was normal, because there was a tech recession and very few jobs available. The job was interesting, and I didn’t have a better offer.

The company that hired me took advantage of the situation… they weren’t going to give me much more until I asked for it. I got a 20% and then a 30% raise while there, which still didn’t put me in the range of friends of mine in the same field with similar or less experience. I got another 20% raise when going to a new company later. Are these raises excessive? No. I still make less than many people in my field, because I started out lower.

I would not expect raises if we were in a recession again, unless I could point out specifically how I made the company enough money to justify a pay increase.

Although, I have to admit a bit of schadenfreude about business majors. While I was in school, they were the ones perpetually partying, while deriding the engineering majors (and others), saying that they would be “writing our paychecks.” Maybe they will. But for now… not so much :).

46

[quote]nephorm wrote:
shadyniner wrote:
He has since gone on to bad mouth the company and the boss for not paying us what we are worth. He wants a double digit bonus (at least 15%), and he wants his base pay to be at least 45. For what? We have done what was asked of us and have done a good job, but to think that we need a nearly 10k increase in pay and double digit bonuses is a little excessive.

He should not badmouth the company or boss. That imprudent, if nothing else. As far as “excessive” goes, it really depends. Can he make 45 elsewhere? Does he bust his ass and add value to the company? It really is driven by market forces. When I graduated, I started out at a much lower salary than was normal, because there was a tech recession and very few jobs available. The job was interesting, and I didn’t have a better offer.

The company that hired me took advantage of the situation… they weren’t going to give me much more until I asked for it. I got a 20% and then a 30% raise while there, which still didn’t put me in the range of friends of mine in the same field with similar or less experience. I got another 20% raise when going to a new company later. Are these raises excessive? No. I still make less than many people in my field, because I started out lower.

I would not expect raises if we were in a recession again, unless I could point out specifically how I made the company enough money to justify a pay increase.

Although, I have to admit a bit of schadenfreude about business majors. While I was in school, they were the ones perpetually partying, while deriding the engineering majors (and others), saying that they would be “writing our paychecks.” Maybe they will. But for now… not so much :).[/quote]

See, in the location we are at, no, he could not go somewhere else and make 45. In fact, to suggest it at an interview would probably get you laughed out the door. Starting salaries for what we do are close to 35, we have only been doing it for 2 years. Our company is a small business. My friend, who works for an agency that is much larger, but does similar work, makes the same as I, and he has been full time longer than me. So the market rates are close to what we are paying now. My point was, for us to be “given” a raise would undoubtedly have to be a result of us doing something. Being entry level, we have not really had the chance to make a difference in our bottom line, as we have been bogged down executing projects that our owner has brought in. The main point, is that I see the entitlement of wanting a paycheck without actually earning it first. I feel like this guy thinks he is a top 10 NFL draft pick, show me the money, and then it is catch as catch may on whether I earn it or not!

47

[quote]Kayrob wrote:
I respectfully disagree here. Who says that learning art history is a waste of time? [/quote]

I like art history. At this stage of my life I am fortunate enough to have both the time and the means to pursue such a leisure interest. However I don’t see the value to an 18 year old starving college student who just wants to get a job.

Let’s face it I paid nearly $4,000 to take an art history course with over 400 other students. It was lecture only so you couldn’t even interact with the professor and ask questions. For that same $4,000 I could fly to Europe, hire a private guide, view the original works in person, and discuss them with my guide over a fine meal and a glass of wine.

I just don’t see the equality of value between the two experiences. Further, although I now have an interest in art it in no way contributes to my ability to earn a living, which again, the sole purpose of my pursuit of a college degree.

48

[quote]Kayrob wrote:
I respectfully disagree here. Who says that learning art history is a waste of time? [/quote]

I like art history. At this stage of my life I am fortunate enough to have both the time and the means to pursue such a leisure interest. However I don’t see the value to an 18 year old starving college student who just wants to get a job.

Let’s face it I paid nearly $4,000 to take an art history course with over 400 other students. It was lecture only so you couldn’t even interact with the professor and ask questions. For that same $4,000 I could fly to Europe, hire a private guide, view the original works in person, and discuss them with my guide over a fine meal and a glass of wine.

I just don’t see the equality of value between the two experiences. Further, although I now have an interest in art it in no way contributes to my ability to earn a living, which again, the sole purpose of my pursuit of a college degree.

49

[quote]ConanSpeaks wrote:
Kayrob wrote:
I respectfully disagree here. Who says that learning art history is a waste of time?

I like art history. At this stage of my life I am fortunate enough to have both the time and the means to pursue such a leisure interest. However I don’t see the value to an 18 year old starving college student who just wants to get a job.

Let’s face it I paid nearly $4,000 to take an art history course with over 400 other students. It was lecture only so you couldn’t even interact with the professor and ask questions. For that same $4,000 I could fly to Europe, hire a private guide, view the original works in person, and discuss them with my guide over a fine meal and a glass of wine.

I just don’t see the equality of value between the two experiences. Further, although I now have an interest in art it in no way contributes to my ability to earn a living, which again, the sole purpose of my pursuit of a college degree.

[/quote]
I see your point, but do you think the nimrod with the degree that did not do shit at your company would take any time to learn by himself.
OK, so here is my point, lets say that we take away all of those classes, and focus the learning on only those skills which the kid is going to need, selling, time management, whatever. He is still going to be green when he comes knocking on your door, and he is still going think he is worth $60K right out of school right?

I do agree with you on your point about your art class, college is not necessary for learning, there are many ways to learn, and yours would certainly be more interesting.

I did my undergrad and grad degrees at night, paid for by my employer. I got so much out of this just in learning how to balance my life, stay focused, and keeping going when I am burning out. There are so many ways to learn good positive ways to succeed in college, but once again, you can give people the tools, but the rest is up to them.

50

I think this is a very, very key point here. This same example can be applied to learning about business.

A: You can spend your thousands of dollars to go to college and get a degree.

B: Or save that same money and approach an extremely successful businessman, demonstrate that you’re ready for his mentoring, and soak up everything you learn.

Problem is, option A is easier, everyone else is doing it, no one will make fun of you or put your down or say “it can’t be done” or “it’s too risky”.

[quote]ConanSpeaks wrote:

Let’s face it I paid nearly $4,000 to take an art history course with over 400 other students. It was lecture only so you couldn’t even interact with the professor and ask questions. For that same $4,000 I could fly to Europe, hire a private guide, view the original works in person, and discuss them with my guide over a fine meal and a glass of wine.

[/quote]

51

[quote]Natural Nate wrote:
I think this is a very, very key point here. This same example can be applied to learning about business.

A: You can spend your thousands of dollars to go to college and get a degree.

B: Or save that same money and approach an extremely successful businessman, demonstrate that you’re ready for his mentoring, and soak up everything you learn.

Problem is, option A is easier, everyone else is doing it, no one will make fun of you or put your down or say “it can’t be done” or “it’s too risky”.

ConanSpeaks wrote:

Let’s face it I paid nearly $4,000 to take an art history course with over 400 other students. It was lecture only so you couldn’t even interact with the professor and ask questions. For that same $4,000 I could fly to Europe, hire a private guide, view the original works in person, and discuss them with my guide over a fine meal and a glass of wine.

[/quote]

IMHO, there is NO better way to learn a business than have a good mentor, and the drive to learn from them.

52

Oops.

53

If college is messing the kids up, the solution is simple: just hire people who didn’t go to college.

54

Conan,

I don’t think college is necessarily to blame, but I sympathize with your frustrations.

There is something behind having that sense of entitlement to a salary - it goes deeper. Many college grads walk off the platform thinking that for the sole reason they were “prostrate to the higher mind”, they now have solved every problem that has plagued mankind and that they are in possession of some “intellectual trophy” that they are better than everyone else - as if the game of intellectual development ends with a diploma.

Used to be colleges taught you skills and taught you to ask better questions. Now, they are believed to give people all the answers.

Again, I don’t think it is college per se, but I will grant that I think that many professors in higher learning are complicit in breeding this sense that a college education entitles gradutes to a privileged position in life.

55

[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
Formal education has nothing to do with intelligence. Neither does the amount of money you make.

Educated fools and dimwitted millionaires are found in every profession.[/quote]

Typically, it takes an IQ of about 120 to get through university without too much difficulty. Saying that education has nothing to do with intelligence is wrong. I guarantee that if you take the average IQ of people in my program, and compare it to the average IQ in the general population, there will be a significant difference. However, it is probably a selection bias, and not that school somehow makes you smarter.

56

[quote]PGJ wrote:

Nobody straight out of college should be demanding $60K, no matter what a counselor says.

[/quote]

Depends on the field. A friend of mine should expect to make at least 200k/year when he finishes his program. I should be making between 80-120k, depending on what type of work I choose to do.

57

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
PGJ wrote:

Nobody straight out of college should be demanding $60K, no matter what a counselor says.

Depends on the field. A friend of mine should expect to make at least 200k/year when he finishes his program. I should be making between 80-120k, depending on what type of work I choose to do.[/quote]

Learning how to sell crack from Professor Joe Crackhead doesn’t count as a college education…

58

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Depends on the field. A friend of mine should expect to make at least 200k/year when he finishes his program. I should be making between 80-120k, depending on what type of work I choose to do.[/quote]

Let me know how that works out. If it does, I’ll get another degree.

I knew lots of guys in University with unrealistic expectations… including my roommate who not only thought he ought to be making “no less” than 80K with his lackluster grades, but also felt that he should get this salary without any expectation of having to dress up for work or wear a tie.

I started out a LOT lower in salary than I had expected. If I had stayed in school for another year, I actually would probably be making more now. But things have a way of working out, and I’m not too worried about it.

The business majors in my school, as I pointed out earlier on this thread, were always the worst in terms of salary expectation. I don’t know where they got the idea. Maybe parents, maybe professors. Maybe a highschool counselor. I have no idea. But most of them were very, very disappointed with what they ended up getting.

59

[quote]pja wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
PGJ wrote:

Nobody straight out of college should be demanding $60K, no matter what a counselor says.

Depends on the field. A friend of mine should expect to make at least 200k/year when he finishes his program. I should be making between 80-120k, depending on what type of work I choose to do.

Learning how to sell crack from Professor Joe Crackhead doesn’t count as a college education…[/quote]

No, but a PhD in business from a world-class university does. Finance PhDs (these are the stars of the field, not a new graduate) are now making over 700k/year in industry, and to compete universities are paying 500k+ to the top researchers. The same thing goes for accounting PhDs. I do OB/HRM, and the numbers are much, much lower, but since we can work in industry or in academics, we still make much more than most PhDs.

60

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
Depends on the field. A friend of mine should expect to make at least 200k/year when he finishes his program. I should be making between 80-120k, depending on what type of work I choose to do.

Let me know how that works out. If it does, I’ll get another degree.

I knew lots of guys in University with unrealistic expectations… including my roommate who not only thought he ought to be making “no less” than 80K with his lackluster grades, but also felt that he should get this salary without any expectation of having to dress up for work or wear a tie.

I started out a LOT lower in salary than I had expected. If I had stayed in school for another year, I actually would probably be making more now. But things have a way of working out, and I’m not too worried about it.

The business majors in my school, as I pointed out earlier on this thread, were always the worst in terms of salary expectation. I don’t know where they got the idea. Maybe parents, maybe professors. Maybe a highschool counselor. I have no idea. But most of them were very, very disappointed with what they ended up getting.[/quote]

If someone is doing accounting (as an undergrad) and they ask their prof “How much do you make?”, they are going to hear a staggering number. A friend of mine with a PhD in accounting works in an OK Canadian university, and he makes over 200k/year. He gets weekly offers from other universities, offering him obscene amounts of money, but he prefers to stay in that city (it’s his hometown). Students are always hearing how little professors make, so they might even assume they’ll make more if they don’t go into academics. Of course, a BBA and a PhD are different beasts altogether.