College Conspiracy

Off Topic
61

College is waste if you’re the type of person who goes to college after high because “that’s what you’re supposed to do”. I cant tell you how many people i know who fell into this situation with high schools and parents making everyone believe you’re a fuck up if you’re not enrolled into a school after senior year.

College is great if you know what you want to study, otherwise i wouldnt start until you answered that question. If it means taking a few years to figure out what you want to study it’s not a big deal, however society dictates otherwise.

I would also advise taking your first year at a local community college for cheap as possible. 90% of all first year programs are the same, and youll save a fuck load of money vs. going to a proper 4yr university. Although you’ll miss out on the parties…

62

[quote]Waittz wrote:

I am missing your point because I personally do not agree with it. My point, for what it is worth, is that you are using math to prove something. I am challenging you, that outside of your math, show me it works then I will beleive it. You are arguing a path you have never done and telling me it is better. I am arguing a path I have done and arguing it is better.

You are telling me my idea doesnt work because I am special unique snowflake. I am telling you your idea only works for special unique snowflakes.

BTW- ddmadox, you are 100% correct. You do not need an education to start a business, I actually did make that point that if you do not go to college, plan on being a business owner or professional investor. Own could argue though that investing in an education can help a business owner, but I agree with you in the sense that it is not required and real world experience can be better in some cases. [/quote]

Our personal experiences have nothing to do with the subject at hand, since neither of us were the average college student. You’re letting the bias of your own personal experience influence your opinion on the subject.

The bottom line is that yes, you are not the norm. This is not my opinion, this is just based on the average income reported by the department of education and bureau of labor statistics. It is not my opinion, it is reality. What is not reality is that somehow every college grad by age 26 is going to have their own successful business making a reliable 100k a year for years to come. Not everyone is willing to risk starting their own business, and most that do will not succeed to the level that you have at your young age. That is why your idea only works for “unique snowflakes”.

However, explain to me why does my idea only works for a special unique snowflake? The only thing special is that you need to start at 18 and not waste a dime on tuition. What is stopping any kid with a decent head on his shoulders from picking up a full time job at 12-15/hr and working 2 shifts at a restaurant job? Then saving and investing money? It’s certainly not ability, only ignorance. This ignorance will persist until parents realize and teach their kids that at current prices, non-elite students who have no inclination to go on for advanced schooling may be setting themselves up for a decade of debt.

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[quote]Waittz wrote:

Education is a tool that can help you, college is just one form. Even in the example that Challer is using that I am debating(btw challer thanks for being able to have a nice and intellegent debate, didnt think that was possible here anymore :slight_smile: ) his ideal senario is contingent on the HS graduate having financial literacy as well as investment/saving strategy. One can argue that it doesnt come from thin air, rather some form of either former or informal education.
[/quote]

I agree that it does require financial literacy, and that 18 year olds lack this, which is sort of the whole point. Why are they so lacking in it? It’s because the middle class, both parents and their children’s teachers, are mistakenly led to believe that a college degree is worth any price, telling kids that have no interest in school that they have to get a degree or they will be doomed to a life of servitude and low paying jobs, when in reality these students then go to college and eventually graduate only to find that their earning power never actually exceeds the cost and lost work time spent earning their degree.

I’m not saying that college = bad and that’s it is always a bad decision, just that the price has risen to the point where it just isn’t worth it for the current average college student.

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[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
The bottom line is that a college degree gives you options that will not be available to you without one. So many jobs and so many opportunities for advancement require a four-year degree. To think otherwise is naive.[/quote]

That’s what they want you to think, and I argue that this was indeed once the case but has changed. I have posted already posted math suggesting otherwise. Maybe 5 years ago, definitely 10+ years ago, but in today’s market this is simply not true.

The real bottom line is that in 1995, tuition/fees at state schools were 1/3 of today’s cost. Meanwhile, the salary gap between high school grads and college grads has remained unchanged.

Let’s put it this way, if a college degree cost 5 million dollars, would there be anyone left saying it was a worthy investment? Doubtful. We’re not there yet, but each year that the cost of tuition goes up and the salary gap remains unchanged, not going to college becomes a more and more attractive option.[/quote]

I definitely see where you are coming from. I have many friends who were unsure and just got a degree, or they got a degree that will always be low paying in order to do something they love. The cost of education is going up because more and more people are attending college each year “just because.”

I will strongly disagree with your point of “That’s what they want you to think” when it comes to opening up opportunities, or even being considered for a job. If someone gets a degree in a technical area, the salary gap is HUGE and you won’t be considered for a position, even for a split second. Electrical engineering is my field. I make double what my fellow college graduates make, and triple what my former high school classmates make. If you apply for a technical job in EE with no degree, employers would call and laugh at you(not really, but you get my point). Why? Because you don’t know:

  1. Engineering Design Process
  2. Electromagnetics
  3. Math
  4. Electromagnetics
  5. Troubleshooting a complex system

And nobody is going to be learning that stuff in high school due to the very high level of mathematics and physics involved. 99% are not even mentally developed enough(from my experiences).

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[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

Education is a tool that can help you, college is just one form. Even in the example that Challer is using that I am debating(btw challer thanks for being able to have a nice and intellegent debate, didnt think that was possible here anymore :slight_smile: ) his ideal senario is contingent on the HS graduate having financial literacy as well as investment/saving strategy. One can argue that it doesnt come from thin air, rather some form of either former or informal education.
[/quote]

I agree that it does require financial literacy, and that 18 year olds lack this, which is sort of the whole point. Why are they so lacking in it? It’s because the middle class, both parents and their children’s teachers, are mistakenly led to believe that a college degree is worth any price, telling kids that have no interest in school that they have to get a degree or they will be doomed to a life of servitude and low paying jobs, when in reality these students then go to college and eventually graduate only to find that their earning power never actually exceeds the cost and lost work time spent earning their degree.

I’m not saying that college = bad and that’s it is always a bad decision, just that the price has risen to the point where it just isn’t worth it for the current average college student.[/quote]

This is by far the best point you have made. One thing about the prior post, for someone to have the work ethic and discipline to work multple jobs, bust their butt(in the service industry you have to bust your ass to make money, cant just show up) and have the discipline to save and invest to that degree, they have what it takes to be an outliar and in my opinion would be better serving the world and themselves by being an entrepreneur or an educated proffessional. I can whole heartedly agree that I am an exception, BUT anyone who can use your formula and math and actualize it can be too. The average person even instilled with that financial litteral and plan still has to exhibit key success traits to make it happen and again in a perfect circumstance.

I agree with your last point, but i will say that it is not the education istelf that dooms people to low paying jobs and servitude, it is the individual themself. It is their desire and their want for more that will drive them. I still belive that is what makes them an outliar and that such a person would benefit from an education, even if debt financed because it only increases their ability to earn down the road.

The average person? I will conceed you win this part of the argument, but only based on the fact that the average person is average for a reason and CANNOT take your paper plan and turn it into reality. Because that means they plan long term, goal set, learn, work hard, strive for more, see the big picture, and sacrifice along with exhibit extreme discipline. Those are traits of success, and for someone who can exibit them, waste themselves in the service industry is no bueno for them or the world.

66

This seems to be focusing on “worthless” degrees from private colleges.

So, technical degree + state school equals win!

Glad I got my EE degree from State U!

67

Well, I was running my #s based on state school. Not everyone has the mental faculties to get an EE degree. Even then, if you’re just in it for the money, I still think most people overestimate the earning potential as an employee (not a business owner) of someone with just an undergrad in today’s market.

For example, the average Costco employee that has been there for 5 years with no degree makes just over $19/hr. This is about $38,000 a year. With a little restaurant work this could be about 50k/year. The average 23 yr old EE is going to be making salary 60-65k/yr working the same # of hours (I don’t know a single engineer who doesn’t put in 50-55 hours a week). Not working for 4 years while in school and taking out loans for tuition can’t make up for this small income gap.

Even 10 years into their career the EE is making 85k and the costco guy is still making 40k… the difference between starting out with 100k in the bank versus 50k in the hole makes a world of difference.

I think I’ve spent enough time on this thread now and don’t waste more time, but I wonder how the #s would add up for parents who were going to pay their kid’s tuition. Rather than drop 50k on 4 years of tuition, what if the parents used that money to on a house for the kid, co-signing the mortgage, and using the would-be tuition money on the down payment.

Within a month or 2 the kid could find some similar aged working young adults or college kids to rent the rooms, which should cover the mortgage if done properly. This depends on a house full of 18 yr olds not to burn the place down of course.

The parents could then gift the house/equity to their child once the kid turned 21. Same cost to the parent, but possibly much larger reward for the kid if he works and saves his $$. Might be something to seriously consider if your kid is a 3.0 HS student with average SATs who has no idea what he wants to do rather than pushing him to college just because you saved for it.

Whether or not you would prefer to ride around on a forklift at costco and barback 2 nights a week versus sitting in an office crunching #s is another discussion altogether. It’s not like he couldn’t go back to school later in life if he wants to pursue something specific.

68

accidentally hit quote instead of edit, lol

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[quote]batman730 wrote:

Heavy duty diesel mechanic, 10 months schooling: $40-60k/year

Commercial diver, 1-12 months schooling: $40-90k/year

Pipeline labourer, High school diploma: $30.00-45.00/hour

Electrician, 3-5yr PAID apprenticeship (40-70% journeyman rate): $40-65k/year

Marine Biologist, 4yr B.Sc.: $30-90k

Lawyer, 7 yr B.A,/J.D.: $75k/year

I am not at all opposed to higher education if you have the means and the passion to pursue it. However the whole idea that higher education is the ticket to a better life and that any other path will result in a shitty job with a shitty salary is simply not accurate.
[/quote]

Police Officer in NJ: $60,000 (starting) to $160,000 a year.

http://php.app.com/NJpublicemployees13/results.php?lastn=&firstn=&location=PARAMUS+BOROUGH&countyname=%25&fundname=Police+and+Firemens+Retirement+System&tfm_order=DESC&tfm_orderby=locsal

You can sort by salary. I know these numbers are accurate and they have been verified.

Thought I would just add that to the list for perspective. I’m pretty sure they need college these days. At least 2 years the last I heard.

And people wonder why my state is going broke.

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[quote]challer1 wrote:

For example, the average Costco employee that has been there for 5 years with no degree makes just over $19/hr. This is about $38,000 a year. With a little restaurant work this could be about 50k/year. The average 23 yr old EE is going to be making salary 60-65k/yr working the same # of hours (I don’t know a single engineer who doesn’t put in 50-55 hours a week). Not working for 4 years while in school and taking out loans for tuition can’t make up for this small income gap.

[/quote]

Hard to generalize since EE is so broad, but I am an EE and the idea of consistent 50-55 hours a week sounds terrible to me. I know plenty of engineers who are in the same boat as me and don’t work 50-55 hours a week, and I know plenty that do as you mentioned (usually more senior guys or people who are in silicon valley type jobs). Just throwing it out there that this is by far not everyone’s experience in engineering jobs, especially when you’re starting out and learning the system.

I still think EE is one of the more valuable degrees out there, and its value increases when you can get a job with a B.S and get your employer to pay for your Masters degree almost in full (which will take a couple of years and then put you in the $80k+ range).

This discussion brings up interesting points though and I never thought about the scenario you brought up; I just personally question who has the discipline and foresight to do that though.

71

[quote]challer1 wrote:

For example, the average Costco employee that has been there for 5 years with no degree makes just over $19/hr. This is about $38,000 a year. With a little restaurant work this could be about 50k/year. The average 23 yr old EE is going to be making salary 60-65k/yr working the same # of hours (I don’t know a single engineer who doesn’t put in 50-55 hours a week). Not working for 4 years while in school and taking out loans for tuition can’t make up for this small income gap.

Even 10 years into their career the EE is making 85k and the costco guy is still making 40k… the difference between starting out with 100k in the bank versus 50k in the hole makes a world of difference.

[/quote]

I’ve worked in restaurants and supermarkets before I went to college and became an IT person. When I started out in IT as system administrator in 2000 I made $42,000 which is about the same as I would have taken home if I worked in the kitchen at the restaurant full time 60 hours. While the pay was the same I actually worked hard almost all 12 hours of my shift in the kitchen, sweating my balls off and coming home tired and smelly. Whereas I probably worked around 4 solid hours a day in the IT job and spent the other 4 browsing the internet, doing research and small talking with co-workers. I’m busy these days at a different job, but I’m making a lot more money and I enjoy troubleshooting problems and desiging systems and networks as compared to just mindlessly laboring. It’s hard to put a $$$ on that.

I do agree too many kids go to college just to go. A lot of their parents just force them. I work at a college and I see it every year when I help the kids move in. Half these kids would be better off going and learning a trade. A good portion just smoke pot, party and flunk out anyway.

72

[quote]krillin wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

For example, the average Costco employee that has been there for 5 years with no degree makes just over $19/hr. This is about $38,000 a year. With a little restaurant work this could be about 50k/year. The average 23 yr old EE is going to be making salary 60-65k/yr working the same # of hours (I don’t know a single engineer who doesn’t put in 50-55 hours a week). Not working for 4 years while in school and taking out loans for tuition can’t make up for this small income gap.

[/quote]

Hard to generalize since EE is so broad, but I am an EE and the idea of consistent 50-55 hours a week sounds terrible to me. I know plenty of engineers who are in the same boat as me and don’t work 50-55 hours a week, and I know plenty that do as you mentioned (usually more senior guys or people who are in silicon valley type jobs). Just throwing it out there that this is by far not everyone’s experience in engineering jobs, especially when you’re starting out and learning the system.

I still think EE is one of the more valuable degrees out there, and its value increases when you can get a job with a B.S and get your employer to pay for your Masters degree almost in full (which will take a couple of years and then put you in the $80k+ range).

This discussion brings up interesting points though and I never thought about the scenario you brought up; I just personally question who has the discipline and foresight to do that though.[/quote]

I don’t know any EE’s in the power side that work more than 40 hours unless they are a senior level engineer. My buddies at Intel consistently work 60 hour weeks, but they are paid quite a bit more. I only work 40 hours a week, no matter what. There is literally no reason why I would have to work more than 40. Depending on the field, getting your PE can boost your salary up around $100k.

73

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

For example, the average Costco employee that has been there for 5 years with no degree makes just over $19/hr. This is about $38,000 a year. With a little restaurant work this could be about 50k/year. The average 23 yr old EE is going to be making salary 60-65k/yr working the same # of hours (I don’t know a single engineer who doesn’t put in 50-55 hours a week). Not working for 4 years while in school and taking out loans for tuition can’t make up for this small income gap.

Even 10 years into their career the EE is making 85k and the costco guy is still making 40k… the difference between starting out with 100k in the bank versus 50k in the hole makes a world of difference.

[/quote]

I’ve worked in restaurants and supermarkets before I went to college and became an IT person. When I started out in IT as system administrator in 2000 I made $42,000 which is about the same as I would have taken home if I worked in the kitchen at the restaurant full time 60 hours. While the pay was the same I actually worked hard almost all 12 hours of my shift in the kitchen, sweating my balls off and coming home tired and smelly. Whereas I probably worked around 4 solid hours a day in the IT job and spent the other 4 browsing the internet, doing research and small talking with co-workers. I’m busy these days at a different job, but I’m making a lot more money and I enjoy troubleshooting problems and desiging systems and networks as compared to just mindlessly laboring. It’s hard to put a $$$ on that.

I do agree too many kids go to college just to go. A lot of their parents just force them. I work at a college and I see it every year when I help the kids move in. Half these kids would be better off going and learning a trade. A good portion just smoke pot, party and flunk out anyway.
[/quote]

Good point you bring up. Typically, with a college degree(at least a respectable one), you eliminate a lot of that “work your ass off” type of work. Mentally, it can be quite a challenge but with a degree you basically ascend the ranks of doing any type of labor whatsoever. I work at a power company as an EE and the linemen make a lot more money than me, but they are outside all day working their asses off and putting in lots of overtime, whereas I don’t do any of that because I get paid for my brain/knowledge.

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[quote] Ripsaw3689 wrote:

I don’t know any EE’s in the power side that work more than 40 hours unless they are a senior level engineer. My buddies at Intel consistently work 60 hour weeks, but they are paid quite a bit more. I only work 40 hours a week, no matter what. There is literally no reason why I would have to work more than 40. Depending on the field, getting your PE can boost your salary up around $100k. [/quote]

Hmm, never heard about what a PE was until you brought it up and I just looked it up. Sounds like a good deal. I would probably have to bail from Aerospace and find an applicable field though.

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[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

For example, the average Costco employee that has been there for 5 years with no degree makes just over $19/hr. This is about $38,000 a year. With a little restaurant work this could be about 50k/year. The average 23 yr old EE is going to be making salary 60-65k/yr working the same # of hours (I don’t know a single engineer who doesn’t put in 50-55 hours a week). Not working for 4 years while in school and taking out loans for tuition can’t make up for this small income gap.

Even 10 years into their career the EE is making 85k and the costco guy is still making 40k… the difference between starting out with 100k in the bank versus 50k in the hole makes a world of difference.

[/quote]

I’ve worked in restaurants and supermarkets before I went to college and became an IT person. When I started out in IT as system administrator in 2000 I made $42,000 which is about the same as I would have taken home if I worked in the kitchen at the restaurant full time 60 hours. While the pay was the same I actually worked hard almost all 12 hours of my shift in the kitchen, sweating my balls off and coming home tired and smelly. Whereas I probably worked around 4 solid hours a day in the IT job and spent the other 4 browsing the internet, doing research and small talking with co-workers. I’m busy these days at a different job, but I’m making a lot more money and I enjoy troubleshooting problems and desiging systems and networks as compared to just mindlessly laboring. It’s hard to put a $$$ on that.

I do agree too many kids go to college just to go. A lot of their parents just force them. I work at a college and I see it every year when I help the kids move in. Half these kids would be better off going and learning a trade. A good portion just smoke pot, party and flunk out anyway.
[/quote]

Good point you bring up. Typically, with a college degree(at least a respectable one), you eliminate a lot of that “work your ass off” type of work. Mentally, it can be quite a challenge but with a degree you basically ascend the ranks of doing any type of labor whatsoever. I work at a power company as an EE and the linemen make a lot more money than me, but they are outside all day working their asses off and putting in lots of overtime, whereas I don’t do any of that because I get paid for my brain/knowledge.
[/quote]

Agreed, with both of you guys, much less exhausting sitting in a cubicle on a computer for 40 hrs a week on average than doing 50 hours of manual labor/restaurant work. Even when it gets super busy, I never come back drained and have plenty of energy to hit the weights/wreck stuff, lol.

76

[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:

Good point you bring up. Typically, with a college degree(at least a respectable one), you eliminate a lot of that “work your ass off” type of work. Mentally, it can be quite a challenge but with a degree you basically ascend the ranks of doing any type of labor whatsoever. I work at a power company as an EE and the linemen make a lot more money than me, but they are outside all day working their asses off and putting in lots of overtime, whereas I don’t do any of that because I get paid for my brain/knowledge.
[/quote]

I was going to bring that up as well. My friend works the “underground” for a utility company in NJ. He makes over 6 figures with overtime. A lot of his time is spent in manholes splicing cables carrying several thousand volts. Sometimes they have to try and pump the water out but he still ends up knee deep in water splicing cables. Some days he works in Newark cutting peoples electricity when they don’t pay their bills. These people know exactly who is cutting their electricity off and they’re pissed. His coworkers have been shot at and mugged in the past. In certain neighborhoods they now have to go in with police escorts.

He makes more than me without a college degree and he’s offered to get me a job with him. No way.

77

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:
These people know exactly who is cutting their electricity off and they’re pissed. His coworkers have been shot at and mugged in the past. In certain neighborhoods they now have to go in with police escorts.[/quote]

Probably Section 8 housing.

78

[quote]krillin wrote:

[quote] Ripsaw3689 wrote:

I don’t know any EE’s in the power side that work more than 40 hours unless they are a senior level engineer. My buddies at Intel consistently work 60 hour weeks, but they are paid quite a bit more. I only work 40 hours a week, no matter what. There is literally no reason why I would have to work more than 40. Depending on the field, getting your PE can boost your salary up around $100k. [/quote]

Hmm, never heard about what a PE was until you brought it up and I just looked it up. Sounds like a good deal. I would probably have to bail from Aerospace and find an applicable field though.[/quote]

I thought that was common knowledge in the engineering field. You need to pass the FE first and then work for 4 years under a licensed PE to sign off that you were doing “professional engineering work.” For EE though, I think there are two PE tests to take depending on your field. They have a power systems one, like three phase analysis, motors and all that, and then a microelectronics one.

79

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

For example, the average Costco employee that has been there for 5 years with no degree makes just over $19/hr. This is about $38,000 a year. With a little restaurant work this could be about 50k/year. The average 23 yr old EE is going to be making salary 60-65k/yr working the same # of hours (I don’t know a single engineer who doesn’t put in 50-55 hours a week). Not working for 4 years while in school and taking out loans for tuition can’t make up for this small income gap.

Even 10 years into their career the EE is making 85k and the costco guy is still making 40k… the difference between starting out with 100k in the bank versus 50k in the hole makes a world of difference.

[/quote]

I’ve worked in restaurants and supermarkets before I went to college and became an IT person. When I started out in IT as system administrator in 2000 I made $42,000 which is about the same as I would have taken home if I worked in the kitchen at the restaurant full time 60 hours. While the pay was the same I actually worked hard almost all 12 hours of my shift in the kitchen, sweating my balls off and coming home tired and smelly. Whereas I probably worked around 4 solid hours a day in the IT job and spent the other 4 browsing the internet, doing research and small talking with co-workers. I’m busy these days at a different job, but I’m making a lot more money and I enjoy troubleshooting problems and desiging systems and networks as compared to just mindlessly laboring. It’s hard to put a $$$ on that.

I do agree too many kids go to college just to go. A lot of their parents just force them. I work at a college and I see it every year when I help the kids move in. Half these kids would be better off going and learning a trade. A good portion just smoke pot, party and flunk out anyway.
[/quote]

Fair enough. However, in 2000, I would have been right behind you saying that getting into IT was a great choice. Problem is that tuition has risen 50% since 2000 while simultaneously job prospects for IT grads are rapidly leaving for India. It is a less attractive choice every year, and the trend shows no sign of stopping.

I would argue that the manual labor thing would be personal preference. I’ll agree that no one wants to stand in a pool of water and cut electrical wires. However, riding around on a forklift at costco or working a cash register is not exactly heavy labor. For the kid who can’t sit still in class and doesn’t even like school, they might find some light manual labor and people interaction more enjoyable than being in a cube.

Additionally, the restaurant/bar work also has its perks that you can’t get in a cubicle… particular for the 18-29 yr old, whether they are male or female. If you’re a young guy, the idea of being able to go into your place of employment and talk up all the attractive waitresses all while getting paid seems like a sweet deal. Females on the other hand get the added advantage of making a lot more than 75/shift, particularly if they can work their way up to bartending once they turn 21.