College Conspiracy

Off Topic
41

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

I know plenty of people for whom English is a second language that can speak and write better than most of the people I met while living in Newark, NJ. Could that be because in Newark there are fewer educated people (especially parents)?

The writing issue is because administrators, not educators, have lowered the required amount of writing that college students need to do.

And haven’t there been studies showing that kids with parents who have college degrees are more successful than those whose parents don’t have them? [/quote]

I’m not saying ESOL people can’t speak/write better than the worst native speakers, but comparing the best ESOL speakers/writers to the worst native speakers is an unfair comparison.

I agree that it is the administrators fault, not the educators. It doesn’t matter who is at fault though when the primary argument is whether or not college is worth the time and money.

Regarding your last point, that’s an unfair statistic. First off, if you are 45+ (i.e. old enough to have college-aged kids), you should have gotten a degree. They were much cheaper then and provided a much larger boost to earning power than they do today. Secondly, that does not compare children of equal abilities as it lumps in all very-low IQ children who are simply not going to be as successful as students bright enough to attend college, degree or not.

It’s a simple matter of economics - the cost of the degree keeps rising, while the value of having a degree keeps falling (due to an increasing # of degrees). In such a system, eventually the cost of the degree will outweigh the value it provides. Running the numbers, you will see we have already reached this point.

42

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

I know plenty of people for whom English is a second language that can speak and write better than most of the people I met while living in Newark, NJ. Could that be because in Newark there are fewer educated people (especially parents)?

The writing issue is because administrators, not educators, have lowered the required amount of writing that college students need to do.

And haven’t there been studies showing that kids with parents who have college degrees are more successful than those whose parents don’t have them? [/quote]

I’m not saying ESOL people can’t speak/write better than the worst native speakers, but comparing the best ESOL speakers/writers to the worst native speakers is an unfair comparison.

I agree that it is the administrators fault, not the educators. It doesn’t matter who is at fault though when the primary argument is whether or not college is worth the time and money.

Regarding your last point, that’s an unfair statistic. First off, if you are 45+ (i.e. old enough to have college-aged kids), you should have gotten a degree. They were much cheaper then and provided a much larger boost to earning power than they do today. Secondly, that does not compare children of equal abilities as it lumps in all very-low IQ children who are simply not going to be as successful as students bright enough to attend college, degree or not.

It’s a simple matter of economics - the cost of the degree keeps rising, while the value of having a degree keeps falling (due to an increasing # of degrees). In such a system, eventually the cost of the degree will outweigh the value it provides. Running the numbers, you will see we have already reached this point.[/quote]

Is the student ever at fault? One of the major problems with college that I’ve seen is that many students seem to think that their mere presence earns a good grade. They don’t have to do any foot work- Its the teachers job to teach, and damnit if they aren’t learning, then the professor is obviously doing something wrong!

They are wrong.

Also, too many people think that going to college for 6 years means they automatically get 6 digits. The only people I know that have earned an MBA or other masters and make a good bit of money are the ones who worked in their field for about 10 years THEN returned for their masters.

Fortunately as this trend of blaming large institutions for ones own personal short comings continues, a lot of people who probably should not go to college in the first place will be convinced that it isn’t worth it anyways.

43

[quote]Waittz wrote:
Yes, college has some flaws and yes there are some classes and expenses that dont have much practical value, but fucking LOL at anyone who doenst make more than 6 figures saying college is worthless and saving for 4 years can compound interest you into a fucking millionare. Christ that makes me giggle.

Guys I have hired and staffed and worked with head hunters in over 6 countries. You do not have a degree, you do not even get in the door. If you do not go to college and want any real world wealth you will need to become a business owner/entrepreneur/celebrity or athlete OR in the worst case senario, live like a miser and stash ever penny you have and save you way to a fake 401k millionare all while living a pomper.

If you dont get a degree, plan on beeing a business owner or professional investor or plan on not being wealthy.
[/quote]

I don’t care what you’ve done as a headhunter, that doesn’t change the numbers. Run the #s and see for yourself. Don’t come back until you’ve done it.

A 22 yr old who has worked 55 hours a week (40 full time at a place like costco or home depot making 12/hr plus 2 restaurant shifts) who has lived frugally (but no more frugally than a college kid would be if their parents weren’t rich) can have approx. $87,000 by age 22.

With this money, they could put 20% down on a 3 bedroom house in a young professional neighborhood. With today’s low interest rates, renting out 2 bedrooms can FULLY cover a mortgage payment.

Additionally, if the high school student is not a complete fuck up, there’s no reason they can’t have their wage raised to $15/hr, or $31,200 a year. Maybe they’ll make assistant manager somewhere, who knows, but it is hardly an unreasonable salary for an intelligent and reliable worker. Now that they live in the city instead of the suburbs, there’s also no reason they can’t make a little bit more from their restaurant work since there are a lot more nicer bars and restaurants around.

Now our high school student is 22 years old, working 55 hours a week (40 + 2 restaurant shifts), has a house, still has almost $50,000 in investments, and is making 31000 a year from their job, 8000 in cash from restaurant work (only $77/shift, low in most areas), and collecting 13200 a year in rent (550 per bedroom, 2 bedrooms). That’s $44,200 a year claimed income PLUS $8000 in cash under the table. Not to mention the 50k saved is pulling in a few thousand/year in a fortune-100 DRIP.

The 8000/year in restaurant cash can pay utilities (1800/yr), groceries/toiletries (3600/yr), cell phone (1200/yr), and leave 1400/year left over for “fun money”. Now this person still has a 44,200/year income, which post-tax will be reduced to about clearing about $15,000 a year after the mortgage, car insurance, health insurance copayments, and another $1100 is pulled out for fun money (giving the person 200$/month to spend on going out/clothes/etc).

Not only are they building equity, not only are their investments giving off income, but they’re also able to bank about $15,000/yr in straight cash while living at least as good as their college-graduate peers. Even if they never get a raise, by age 30, they’re wealth will simply be insurmountable by a reasonable college graduate income.

This is hardly living like a pauper, especially at this age. In fact, I would argue that this is what most college graduates live like until they get married, where their combined incomes to save on rent can finally overtake their indebted origins.

By the end of their 29th year, they’re going to have 200k in the bank, earning 10k/yr post taxes in a fortune-100 DRIP, earning 13k/yr in rent, plus their hourly wages/cash. At this point they can buy a second house, live there, rent their original party for a solid profit, possibly a large profit if the property has appreciated even slightly, and use this extra income to quit their restaurant job.

44

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

Is the student ever at fault? One of the major problems with college that I’ve seen is that many students seem to think that their mere presence earns a good grade. They don’t have to do any foot work- Its the teachers job to teach, and damnit if they aren’t learning, then the professor is obviously doing something wrong!

They are wrong.

Also, too many people think that going to college for 6 years means they automatically get 6 digits. The only people I know that have earned an MBA or other masters and make a good bit of money are the ones who worked in their field for about 10 years THEN returned for their masters.

Fortunately as this trend of blaming large institutions for ones own personal short comings continues, a lot of people who probably should not go to college in the first place will be convinced that it isn’t worth it anyways.
[/quote]

I agree that most students are shitty, but I don’t see how that changes the facts - that college is too damn expensive for the average person.

As a side note, one of the reasons that kids are so entitled to grades is because the administration allows it. Teachers are more or less forced to pass all their kids at the K12 level (no child left behind etc) and at least some of them at the college level. Students come in and act like shitheads pass anyway because if they fail, the teacher gets punished for not “reaching” their kids.

Imagine you are professor teaching introductory courses to a bunch of incompetent kids who are way behind on their reading levels. What are you going to do - fail them all? What do you think your department chair is going to say when not a single student has passed your class? If this kids fail and drop out of college, who is going to pay the bills? Need to pass people along to keep enrollment #s up…

45

Well, it is supposed to be Higher learning right?

Not average learning.

46

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
Yes, college has some flaws and yes there are some classes and expenses that dont have much practical value, but fucking LOL at anyone who doenst make more than 6 figures saying college is worthless and saving for 4 years can compound interest you into a fucking millionare. Christ that makes me giggle.

Guys I have hired and staffed and worked with head hunters in over 6 countries. You do not have a degree, you do not even get in the door. If you do not go to college and want any real world wealth you will need to become a business owner/entrepreneur/celebrity or athlete OR in the worst case senario, live like a miser and stash ever penny you have and save you way to a fake 401k millionare all while living a pomper.

If you dont get a degree, plan on beeing a business owner or professional investor or plan on not being wealthy.
[/quote]

I don’t care what you’ve done as a headhunter, that doesn’t change the numbers. Run the #s and see for yourself. Don’t come back until you’ve done it.

A 22 yr old who has worked 55 hours a week (40 full time at a place like costco or home depot making 12/hr plus 2 restaurant shifts) who has lived frugally (but no more frugally than a college kid would be if their parents weren’t rich) can have approx. $87,000 by age 22.

With this money, they could put 20% down on a 3 bedroom house in a young professional neighborhood. With today’s low interest rates, renting out 2 bedrooms can FULLY cover a mortgage payment.

Additionally, if the high school student is not a complete fuck up, there’s no reason they can’t have their wage raised to $15/hr, or $31,200 a year. Maybe they’ll make assistant manager somewhere, who knows, but it is hardly an unreasonable salary for an intelligent and reliable worker. Now that they live in the city instead of the suburbs, there’s also no reason they can’t make a little bit more from their restaurant work since there are a lot more nicer bars and restaurants around.

Now our high school student is 22 years old, working 55 hours a week (40 + 2 restaurant shifts), has a house, still has almost $50,000 in investments, and is making 31000 a year from their job, 8000 in cash from restaurant work (only $77/shift, low in most areas), and collecting 13200 a year in rent (550 per bedroom, 2 bedrooms). That’s $44,200 a year claimed income PLUS $8000 in cash under the table. Not to mention the 50k saved is pulling in a few thousand/year in a fortune-100 DRIP.

The 8000/year in restaurant cash can pay utilities (1800/yr), groceries/toiletries (3600/yr), cell phone (1200/yr), and leave 1400/year left over for “fun money”. Now this person still has a 44,200/year income, which post-tax will be reduced to about clearing about $15,000 a year after the mortgage, car insurance, health insurance copayments, and another $1100 is pulled out for fun money (giving the person 200$/month to spend on going out/clothes/etc).

Not only are they building equity, not only are their investments giving off income, but they’re also able to bank about $15,000/yr in straight cash while living at least as good as their college-graduate peers. Even if they never get a raise, by age 30, they’re wealth will simply be insurmountable by a reasonable college graduate income.

This is hardly living like a pauper, especially at this age. In fact, I would argue that this is what most college graduates live like until they get married, where their combined incomes to save on rent can finally overtake their indebted origins.

By the end of their 29th year, they’re going to have 200k in the bank, earning 10k/yr post taxes in a fortune-100 DRIP, earning 13k/yr in rent, plus their hourly wages/cash. At this point they can buy a second house, live there, rent their original party for a solid profit, possibly a large profit if the property has appreciated even slightly, and use this extra income to quit their restaurant job.[/quote]

I never said I was a headhunter, I run a business. Your math works on paper but doesnt translate into real life. It is POSSIBLE but relies on support. An 18 year old who cant live with his/her parents has no car, no outside support cannot bank 21k cash a year. It also assumes no medical or real life instances that need money to fix.

As far as the investment/savings plan itself, it is brilliant, smart and fool proof, and can be done so much better with a higher income stream. Also, it involves alot of labor in bad circumstances. I waited tables in college, would i ever want that as my life for 4+ years? No.

btw 200 a month on fun money? Im 26 and 200 is the price of a left shoe for me. If you want a simple life fine dont go to college, work 55+ hour weeks every week and pretend that perfect circumstances exist that give you constant income in a job that has a varible income stream. Plan your life on a peice of paper with math that assumes you find a renter, that assumes the market doesnt crash and that assumes alot. Not insulting you, your math on paper works. But assumes perfect conditions and relies on lots of hard work for low pay. Why not apply this same work ethic and savings/investment plan with a career field that pays alot more?

Here is my question, did you actually do this? This formula? Did you do it from 18-29 and can prove that the potential outcome is the actual outcome? If so you are right and I am wrong.

For the record, I am 26, own 4 bedroom pool home(bought it 2.5 years ago, have alot of equity in it), drive a porsche, I have plenty of cash in the bank that i can live off of for months, 30k invested, wear hugo boss suits and live on less than 70% of my income which is 6 figures. Btw I am 26 and went to college. Am I saying this to be a dousche? No, I am saying it because the door would never be there without my education(which doesnt stop after you graduate btw) and I am saying it from experience, not hypotheticals, which puts me in a position of authority on the subject.

47

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
Yes, college has some flaws and yes there are some classes and expenses that dont have much practical value, but fucking LOL at anyone who doenst make more than 6 figures saying college is worthless and saving for 4 years can compound interest you into a fucking millionare. Christ that makes me giggle.

Guys I have hired and staffed and worked with head hunters in over 6 countries. You do not have a degree, you do not even get in the door. If you do not go to college and want any real world wealth you will need to become a business owner/entrepreneur/celebrity or athlete OR in the worst case senario, live like a miser and stash ever penny you have and save you way to a fake 401k millionare all while living a pomper.

If you dont get a degree, plan on beeing a business owner or professional investor or plan on not being wealthy.
[/quote]

I don’t care what you’ve done as a headhunter, that doesn’t change the numbers. Run the #s and see for yourself. Don’t come back until you’ve done it.

A 22 yr old who has worked 55 hours a week (40 full time at a place like costco or home depot making 12/hr plus 2 restaurant shifts) who has lived frugally (but no more frugally than a college kid would be if their parents weren’t rich) can have approx. $87,000 by age 22.

With this money, they could put 20% down on a 3 bedroom house in a young professional neighborhood. With today’s low interest rates, renting out 2 bedrooms can FULLY cover a mortgage payment.

Additionally, if the high school student is not a complete fuck up, there’s no reason they can’t have their wage raised to $15/hr, or $31,200 a year. Maybe they’ll make assistant manager somewhere, who knows, but it is hardly an unreasonable salary for an intelligent and reliable worker. Now that they live in the city instead of the suburbs, there’s also no reason they can’t make a little bit more from their restaurant work since there are a lot more nicer bars and restaurants around.

Now our high school student is 22 years old, working 55 hours a week (40 + 2 restaurant shifts), has a house, still has almost $50,000 in investments, and is making 31000 a year from their job, 8000 in cash from restaurant work (only $77/shift, low in most areas), and collecting 13200 a year in rent (550 per bedroom, 2 bedrooms). That’s $44,200 a year claimed income PLUS $8000 in cash under the table. Not to mention the 50k saved is pulling in a few thousand/year in a fortune-100 DRIP.

The 8000/year in restaurant cash can pay utilities (1800/yr), groceries/toiletries (3600/yr), cell phone (1200/yr), and leave 1400/year left over for “fun money”. Now this person still has a 44,200/year income, which post-tax will be reduced to about clearing about $15,000 a year after the mortgage, car insurance, health insurance copayments, and another $1100 is pulled out for fun money (giving the person 200$/month to spend on going out/clothes/etc).

Not only are they building equity, not only are their investments giving off income, but they’re also able to bank about $15,000/yr in straight cash while living at least as good as their college-graduate peers. Even if they never get a raise, by age 30, they’re wealth will simply be insurmountable by a reasonable college graduate income.

This is hardly living like a pauper, especially at this age. In fact, I would argue that this is what most college graduates live like until they get married, where their combined incomes to save on rent can finally overtake their indebted origins.

By the end of their 29th year, they’re going to have 200k in the bank, earning 10k/yr post taxes in a fortune-100 DRIP, earning 13k/yr in rent, plus their hourly wages/cash. At this point they can buy a second house, live there, rent their original party for a solid profit, possibly a large profit if the property has appreciated even slightly, and use this extra income to quit their restaurant job.[/quote]

I never said I was a headhunter, I run a business. Your math works on paper but doesnt translate into real life. It is POSSIBLE but relies on support. An 18 year old who cant live with his/her parents has no car, no outside support cannot bank 21k cash a year. It also assumes no medical or real life instances that need money to fix.

As far as the investment/savings plan itself, it is brilliant, smart and fool proof, and can be done so much better with a higher income stream. Also, it involves alot of labor in bad circumstances. I waited tables in college, would i ever want that as my life for 4+ years? No.

btw 200 a month on fun money? Im 26 and 200 is the price of a left shoe for me. If you want a simple life fine dont go to college, work 55+ hour weeks every week and pretend that perfect circumstances exist that give you constant income in a job that has a varible income stream. Plan your life on a peice of paper with math that assumes you find a renter, that assumes the market doesnt crash and that assumes alot. Not insulting you, your math on paper works. But assumes perfect conditions and relies on lots of hard work for low pay. Why not apply this same work ethic and savings/investment plan with a career field that pays alot more?

Here is my question, did you actually do this? This formula? Did you do it from 18-29 and can prove that the potential outcome is the actual outcome? If so you are right and I am wrong.

For the record, I am 26, own 4 bedroom pool home(bought it 2.5 years ago, have alot of equity in it), drive a porsche, I have plenty of cash in the bank that i can live off of for months, 30k invested, wear hugo boss suits and live on less than 70% of my income which is 6 figures. Btw I am 26 and went to college. Am I saying this to be a dousche? No, I am saying it because the door would never be there without my education(which doesnt stop after you graduate btw) and I am saying it from experience, not hypotheticals, which puts me in a position of authority on the subject. [/quote]

You’re an outlier using your exception to prove the rule. The vast, vast majority of college kids are not making 100k/yr at age 26 as an employee. I’d be willing to wager that’s like the top 3 percentile, perhaps top 5. Of course if you could guarantee a 100,000 yr salary by 25 then going to college would be worth it, but you cannot. Even with a good degree and landing a good job most graduates are making about 60k a year by age 26 - about 50k entry level and 5% raise a year from there.

You keep saying that in my example the person has to live such a simple life and be very frugal, but this is the life that average college grad with the average salary living. In fact, the high school grad in my example is actually likely to be living better than the average college grad.

A college grad starting out at 50k/yr salary and 50k of debt is not able to buy a house at 23.5 yrs old. Instead, they’re paying 450/mo in loans and 700/mo in rent/utilities and not buying a house until 30. You can’t say that it worked for you when you’re salary is TWICE that of the average college grad.

Also you have to remember that you started college 8 years ago. Times have changed for someone starting a degree today. Houses are much cheaper and tuition is much more expensive than it was 8 years ago.

48

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I never said I was a headhunter, I run a business. Your math works on paper but doesnt translate into real life. It is POSSIBLE but relies on support. An 18 year old who cant live with his/her parents has no car, no outside support cannot bank 21k cash a year. It also assumes no medical or real life instances that need money to fix.[/quote]

Sorry I missed this and forgot to respond to this.

For the sake of simplicity of the model, we’re going to assume in both examples that both the HS kid and the college-bound kid worked a summer job for 2 summers and saved up for a $5000 used car already by age 18. This is typical scenario for kids whose parents don’t have the money or inclination to provide them with their own vehicle.

Children up to 21 can stay on their parents health insurance for free. Full-time positions at places like Costco and Home Depot provide insurance. At 22, I have worked a 150/month co-payment for insurance into the formula to come up with my numbers. However, a freshly employed college grad is likely going to have the exact same copayment so this is no advantage for either party.

In my example as well, I have allowed 200-300$/month for the HS student to give to his parents for rent. If this scenario is not in the cards, the kid could move into a group house in the suburbs for an extra 1500 a year, then start paying their health insurance premiums at 18 through their employer rather than free from their parents. They’ll bank 15k a year instead of 20k a year with no support. Not a big difference in the overall plan.

However, assuming no parent support for the non-college student but parental support for the college student is not a fair comparison. We have to levy the same penalty on the college-bound student and assume they are taking out loans for their cost of living if they’re staying in the dorms or an off-campus house. They’re also going to have to come up with their own health insurance entirely or buy through the schools plan, which is more money that has to be borrowed. The negative impact of the increase in the college student’s debt from lacking parental support is much, much greater than the extra 5000/yr the working 18 yr old will have to come up with to pay their bills.

49

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
Yes, college has some flaws and yes there are some classes and expenses that dont have much practical value, but fucking LOL at anyone who doenst make more than 6 figures saying college is worthless and saving for 4 years can compound interest you into a fucking millionare. Christ that makes me giggle.

Guys I have hired and staffed and worked with head hunters in over 6 countries. You do not have a degree, you do not even get in the door. If you do not go to college and want any real world wealth you will need to become a business owner/entrepreneur/celebrity or athlete OR in the worst case senario, live like a miser and stash ever penny you have and save you way to a fake 401k millionare all while living a pomper.

If you dont get a degree, plan on beeing a business owner or professional investor or plan on not being wealthy.
[/quote]

I don’t care what you’ve done as a headhunter, that doesn’t change the numbers. Run the #s and see for yourself. Don’t come back until you’ve done it.

A 22 yr old who has worked 55 hours a week (40 full time at a place like costco or home depot making 12/hr plus 2 restaurant shifts) who has lived frugally (but no more frugally than a college kid would be if their parents weren’t rich) can have approx. $87,000 by age 22.

With this money, they could put 20% down on a 3 bedroom house in a young professional neighborhood. With today’s low interest rates, renting out 2 bedrooms can FULLY cover a mortgage payment.

Additionally, if the high school student is not a complete fuck up, there’s no reason they can’t have their wage raised to $15/hr, or $31,200 a year. Maybe they’ll make assistant manager somewhere, who knows, but it is hardly an unreasonable salary for an intelligent and reliable worker. Now that they live in the city instead of the suburbs, there’s also no reason they can’t make a little bit more from their restaurant work since there are a lot more nicer bars and restaurants around.

Now our high school student is 22 years old, working 55 hours a week (40 + 2 restaurant shifts), has a house, still has almost $50,000 in investments, and is making 31000 a year from their job, 8000 in cash from restaurant work (only $77/shift, low in most areas), and collecting 13200 a year in rent (550 per bedroom, 2 bedrooms). That’s $44,200 a year claimed income PLUS $8000 in cash under the table. Not to mention the 50k saved is pulling in a few thousand/year in a fortune-100 DRIP.

The 8000/year in restaurant cash can pay utilities (1800/yr), groceries/toiletries (3600/yr), cell phone (1200/yr), and leave 1400/year left over for “fun money”. Now this person still has a 44,200/year income, which post-tax will be reduced to about clearing about $15,000 a year after the mortgage, car insurance, health insurance copayments, and another $1100 is pulled out for fun money (giving the person 200$/month to spend on going out/clothes/etc).

Not only are they building equity, not only are their investments giving off income, but they’re also able to bank about $15,000/yr in straight cash while living at least as good as their college-graduate peers. Even if they never get a raise, by age 30, they’re wealth will simply be insurmountable by a reasonable college graduate income.

This is hardly living like a pauper, especially at this age. In fact, I would argue that this is what most college graduates live like until they get married, where their combined incomes to save on rent can finally overtake their indebted origins.

By the end of their 29th year, they’re going to have 200k in the bank, earning 10k/yr post taxes in a fortune-100 DRIP, earning 13k/yr in rent, plus their hourly wages/cash. At this point they can buy a second house, live there, rent their original party for a solid profit, possibly a large profit if the property has appreciated even slightly, and use this extra income to quit their restaurant job.[/quote]

I never said I was a headhunter, I run a business. Your math works on paper but doesnt translate into real life. It is POSSIBLE but relies on support. An 18 year old who cant live with his/her parents has no car, no outside support cannot bank 21k cash a year. It also assumes no medical or real life instances that need money to fix.

As far as the investment/savings plan itself, it is brilliant, smart and fool proof, and can be done so much better with a higher income stream. Also, it involves alot of labor in bad circumstances. I waited tables in college, would i ever want that as my life for 4+ years? No.

btw 200 a month on fun money? Im 26 and 200 is the price of a left shoe for me. If you want a simple life fine dont go to college, work 55+ hour weeks every week and pretend that perfect circumstances exist that give you constant income in a job that has a varible income stream. Plan your life on a peice of paper with math that assumes you find a renter, that assumes the market doesnt crash and that assumes alot. Not insulting you, your math on paper works. But assumes perfect conditions and relies on lots of hard work for low pay. Why not apply this same work ethic and savings/investment plan with a career field that pays alot more?

Here is my question, did you actually do this? This formula? Did you do it from 18-29 and can prove that the potential outcome is the actual outcome? If so you are right and I am wrong.

For the record, I am 26, own 4 bedroom pool home(bought it 2.5 years ago, have alot of equity in it), drive a porsche, I have plenty of cash in the bank that i can live off of for months, 30k invested, wear hugo boss suits and live on less than 70% of my income which is 6 figures. Btw I am 26 and went to college. Am I saying this to be a dousche? No, I am saying it because the door would never be there without my education(which doesnt stop after you graduate btw) and I am saying it from experience, not hypotheticals, which puts me in a position of authority on the subject. [/quote]

You’re an outlier using your exception to prove the rule. The vast, vast majority of college kids are not making 100k/yr at age 26 as an employee. I’d be willing to wager that’s like the top 3 percentile, perhaps top 5. Of course if you could guarantee a 100,000 yr salary by 25 then going to college would be worth it, but you cannot. Even with a good degree and landing a good job most graduates are making about 60k a year by age 26 - about 50k entry level and 5% raise a year from there.

You keep saying that in my example the person has to live such a simple life and be very frugal, but this is the life that average college grad with the average salary living.

A college grad starting out at 50k/yr salary and 50k of debt is not able to buy a house at 23.5 yrs old. Instead, they’re paying 450/mo in loans and 700/mo in rent/utilities and not buying a house until 30. You can’t say that it worked for you when you’re salary is TWICE that of the average college grad.

Also you have to remember that you started college 8 years ago. Times have changed for someone starting a degree today. Houses are much cheaper and tuition is much more expensive than it was 8 years ago.[/quote]

I understand I am an outliar and that is pretty much my point. To become an outliar you need a solid foundation. Many of the millionares i know(a few of whom i am lucky enough to have a mentors) stress education, life long quest for knowledge as the foundation.

My entire point is that in 1 year, if you make 500K, at 35 lets say, you now have 500k. Again please dont take me sharing my information as a way to boast, I am mearly trying to prove what can ACTUALLY happen from first hand experience. You cannot save your way to rich. You can gradually build weatlh by living bellow you means and saving and investing, BUT you still need to earn. The higher you earn, the more you can save and invest.

My question stands, I can say this because I am doing it currently. Have you DONE what you outlined in that math? If the answer is yes, then ok. If the answer is no, stop using hypothetical situations as proof of actual outcome.

Go look at who make up the 1%. Go look at people who have wealth, they do it through high earnings be it income or investment streams. And the TEACH to do it that way. Saving is not how you gain wealth, it is how you grow and preserve it.

Let’s use me again for example, 3 years ago I had no money, student loans, CC debt, etc. In the 3 years since I have earned more than my entire life combined. In the past 2 years, more than I had in the previous 5. This year I have the earning potential to do even more. So why live a life of less, instead of wanting a life of more?

to say I am an outliar because I beleive in education(again never ending education, one of my mentors calls it intellectual curiousity) hard work and a BURNING desire to succeed is foolish. If EVERYONE did this then I wouldnt be an outliar, I would be a peer.

50

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I never said I was a headhunter, I run a business. Your math works on paper but doesnt translate into real life. It is POSSIBLE but relies on support. An 18 year old who cant live with his/her parents has no car, no outside support cannot bank 21k cash a year. It also assumes no medical or real life instances that need money to fix.[/quote]

Sorry I missed this and forgot to respond to this.

For the sake of simplicity of the model, we’re going to assume in both examples that both the HS kid and the college-bound kid worked a summer job for 2 summers and saved up for a $5000 used car already by age 18. This is typical scenario for kids whose parents don’t have the money or inclination to provide them with their own vehicle.

Children up to 21 can stay on their parents health insurance for free. Full-time positions at places like Costco and Home Depot provide insurance. At 22, I have worked a 150/month co-payment for insurance into the formula to come up with my numbers. However, a freshly employed college grad is likely going to have the exact same copayment so this is no advantage for either party.

In my example as well, I have allowed 200-300$/month for the HS student to give to his parents for rent. If this scenario is not in the cards, the kid could move into a group house in the suburbs for an extra 1500 a year, then start paying their health insurance premiums at 18 through their employer rather than free from their parents. They’ll bank 15k a year instead of 20k a year with no support. Not a big difference in the overall plan.

However, assuming no parent support for the non-college student but parental support for the college student is not a fair comparison. We have to levy the same penalty on the college-bound student and assume they are taking out loans for their cost of living if they’re staying in the dorms or an off-campus house. They’re also going to have to come up with their own health insurance entirely or buy through the schools plan, which is more money that has to be borrowed. The negative impact of the increase in the college student’s debt from lacking parental support is much, much greater than the extra 5000/yr the working 18 yr old will have to come up with to pay their bills. [/quote]

You are missing my point. Have you done this? This plan, have you done it? If no, dont tell me it works and it is better. I get that the math works, but the math of selling a business for $5M in your late 30’s beats this. It still has to be done and proven, and my example has lots of real life examples. Just go to any bookstore and look at the biography section.

51

The bottom line is that a college degree gives you options that will not be available to you without one. So many jobs and so many opportunities for advancement require a four-year degree. To think otherwise is naive.

52

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
The bottom line is that a college degree gives you options that will not be available to you without one. So many jobs and so many opportunities for advancement require a four-year degree. To think otherwise is naive.[/quote]

Correct, and to advise otherwise is doing others a disservice in my humble opinion.

53

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I never said I was a headhunter, I run a business. Your math works on paper but doesnt translate into real life. It is POSSIBLE but relies on support. An 18 year old who cant live with his/her parents has no car, no outside support cannot bank 21k cash a year. It also assumes no medical or real life instances that need money to fix.[/quote]

Sorry I missed this and forgot to respond to this.

For the sake of simplicity of the model, we’re going to assume in both examples that both the HS kid and the college-bound kid worked a summer job for 2 summers and saved up for a $5000 used car already by age 18. This is typical scenario for kids whose parents don’t have the money or inclination to provide them with their own vehicle.

Children up to 21 can stay on their parents health insurance for free. Full-time positions at places like Costco and Home Depot provide insurance. At 22, I have worked a 150/month co-payment for insurance into the formula to come up with my numbers. However, a freshly employed college grad is likely going to have the exact same copayment so this is no advantage for either party.

In my example as well, I have allowed 200-300$/month for the HS student to give to his parents for rent. If this scenario is not in the cards, the kid could move into a group house in the suburbs for an extra 1500 a year, then start paying their health insurance premiums at 18 through their employer rather than free from their parents. They’ll bank 15k a year instead of 20k a year with no support. Not a big difference in the overall plan.

However, assuming no parent support for the non-college student but parental support for the college student is not a fair comparison. We have to levy the same penalty on the college-bound student and assume they are taking out loans for their cost of living if they’re staying in the dorms or an off-campus house. They’re also going to have to come up with their own health insurance entirely or buy through the schools plan, which is more money that has to be borrowed. The negative impact of the increase in the college student’s debt from lacking parental support is much, much greater than the extra 5000/yr the working 18 yr old will have to come up with to pay their bills. [/quote]

You are missing my point. Have you done this? This plan, have you done it? If no, dont tell me it works and it is better. I get that the math works, but the math of selling a business for $5M in your late 30’s beats this. It still has to be done and proven, and my example has lots of real life examples. Just go to any bookstore and look at the biography section.

[/quote]

What degree did you earn and what is your occupation if you don’t mind?

54

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I never said I was a headhunter, I run a business. Your math works on paper but doesnt translate into real life. It is POSSIBLE but relies on support. An 18 year old who cant live with his/her parents has no car, no outside support cannot bank 21k cash a year. It also assumes no medical or real life instances that need money to fix.[/quote]

Sorry I missed this and forgot to respond to this.

For the sake of simplicity of the model, we’re going to assume in both examples that both the HS kid and the college-bound kid worked a summer job for 2 summers and saved up for a $5000 used car already by age 18. This is typical scenario for kids whose parents don’t have the money or inclination to provide them with their own vehicle.

Children up to 21 can stay on their parents health insurance for free. Full-time positions at places like Costco and Home Depot provide insurance. At 22, I have worked a 150/month co-payment for insurance into the formula to come up with my numbers. However, a freshly employed college grad is likely going to have the exact same copayment so this is no advantage for either party.

In my example as well, I have allowed 200-300$/month for the HS student to give to his parents for rent. If this scenario is not in the cards, the kid could move into a group house in the suburbs for an extra 1500 a year, then start paying their health insurance premiums at 18 through their employer rather than free from their parents. They’ll bank 15k a year instead of 20k a year with no support. Not a big difference in the overall plan.

However, assuming no parent support for the non-college student but parental support for the college student is not a fair comparison. We have to levy the same penalty on the college-bound student and assume they are taking out loans for their cost of living if they’re staying in the dorms or an off-campus house. They’re also going to have to come up with their own health insurance entirely or buy through the schools plan, which is more money that has to be borrowed. The negative impact of the increase in the college student’s debt from lacking parental support is much, much greater than the extra 5000/yr the working 18 yr old will have to come up with to pay their bills. [/quote]

You are missing my point. Have you done this? This plan, have you done it? If no, dont tell me it works and it is better. I get that the math works, but the math of selling a business for $5M in your late 30’s beats this. It still has to be done and proven, and my example has lots of real life examples. Just go to any bookstore and look at the biography section.

[/quote]

No, you’re missing the one missing the point entirely. The point you seem to be making is that for the most elite students or those that want to start a business, college is generally a good idea.

My point is that the average college graduate is not getting a good return on investment in their degree. Those without the talent or inclination to do anything but show up for a paycheck might as well just start working right out of high school, because the time and cost of a degree does not pay off if you are average. Key word, average.

Of course I have not done this. I had a full scholarship so this situation does not apply. My gripe is that if I did not have a scholarship, I would never have been able to execute such a plan, namely because having the foresight to execute such a plan at age 18 is not realistic, and no adult at the time would have suggested doing anything other than going to college would be a good idea. Finally, I would not work for $30,000 a year, even without a degree. It’s too easy to find work online for more than that even without a college degree. I used that the 25-30k/yr job as an example in this case because it is completely foolproof and very low risk.

Also selling a business for $5M at age 35 has nothing to do with this conversation. The top 5% of non-college graduates start businesses too. Anecdotes don’t belong in a conversation of statistics so why even go there. That would be like me saying that if you drop out of college and start a business like bill gates you’re definitely going to be as rich as him one day! Theoretically you could, but it is not likely, and it is certainly not going to happen for more than a few people in each generation.

55

Maybe we should stop thinking like the middle class. I don’t want a job. I want to own my own business. To own a business does not require a college degree.

If you want a job then yes getting a college degree is the way to go.

I would prefer to give my children the money that I would have to pay for them to go to college and them invest in a business that has positive cash flow and basically be retired the day they graduate from High School.

56

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
The bottom line is that a college degree gives you options that will not be available to you without one. So many jobs and so many opportunities for advancement require a four-year degree. To think otherwise is naive.[/quote]

That’s what they want you to think, and I argue that this was indeed once the case but has changed. I have posted already posted math suggesting otherwise. Maybe 5 years ago, definitely 10+ years ago, but in today’s market this is simply not true.

The real bottom line is that in 1995, tuition/fees at state schools were 1/3 of today’s cost. Meanwhile, the salary gap between high school grads and college grads has remained unchanged.

Let’s put it this way, if a college degree cost 5 million dollars, would there be anyone left saying it was a worthy investment? Doubtful. We’re not there yet, but each year that the cost of tuition goes up and the salary gap remains unchanged, not going to college becomes a more and more attractive option.

57

I will agree with a basic premise that too many people go to college that shouldn’t, and this depresses the value of a college degree for those that do graduate. High schools are not up to par with teaching proper English, Writing and Math skills to make good citizens and or workers out of the graduates sans college.

Yes, you can make a pretty decent living in the trades, and if you are smart, you can do a lot with a more moderate income and less debt. That is basic economics. Some people do, some don’t. This applies to college graduates as well. I have known lawyers, CFO’s and regular college slackers who screwed up their credit score and got into debt. Their higher salaries barely mitigated the debt. This is why many kids graduating college, MBA programs, or Law schools almost HAVE to go into certain lines of work to pay off their ridiculous debt instead of starting a business.

Financial literacy is helped by college, as is a background in the liberal arts. However, many of these principals can be learned by hanging out at your local public library. I recently talked to a local distillery owner who had an MBA from my program. Her and her husband quit high paying jobs to open this business, and they learned what they needed to know from the LIBRARY.

I believe in an integrated knowledge base from liberal arts, to science and math. It is ALL important in developing someone as a person and as an employee.

Student debt is a nightmare. There are many ways to circumvent it. Go to school while working, work for a university, get employer sponsored tuition (though it is rapidly disappearing), take some community college courses, or GET A SCHOLARSHIP.

I went to a state school for undergrad because I had free tuition. I still had a few loans because of living expenses, but I am fortunate to have had that opportunity. I am in grad school, while working, and paying for it myself.

It is NOT cheap, however, tuition at one place and its associated ROI is not the same as others. You can pay 100K+ for an MBA at a top school, like Wharton. Something with that much weight and brand equity will pay off. You could also pay a fraction of that and go to a less reputable program and still make good money. This also applies for undergrad. If you go IVY, it does not matter what degree you get, you can end up making money in consulting and investment banking because you are already vetted by entry to that school.

If you are not pursuing a lucrative degree at a mid tier or state school, you have to hustle harder. If you are in English major and you know where you want to go and get the proper internship, that can work too.

Going to college aimless is the same as wandering through life aimless and with a lack of drive. Degrees might get your foot in the door, and some might work better than others for that, but its up to you to make it.

58

[quote]stefan128 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I never said I was a headhunter, I run a business. Your math works on paper but doesnt translate into real life. It is POSSIBLE but relies on support. An 18 year old who cant live with his/her parents has no car, no outside support cannot bank 21k cash a year. It also assumes no medical or real life instances that need money to fix.[/quote]

Sorry I missed this and forgot to respond to this.

For the sake of simplicity of the model, we’re going to assume in both examples that both the HS kid and the college-bound kid worked a summer job for 2 summers and saved up for a $5000 used car already by age 18. This is typical scenario for kids whose parents don’t have the money or inclination to provide them with their own vehicle.

Children up to 21 can stay on their parents health insurance for free. Full-time positions at places like Costco and Home Depot provide insurance. At 22, I have worked a 150/month co-payment for insurance into the formula to come up with my numbers. However, a freshly employed college grad is likely going to have the exact same copayment so this is no advantage for either party.

In my example as well, I have allowed 200-300$/month for the HS student to give to his parents for rent. If this scenario is not in the cards, the kid could move into a group house in the suburbs for an extra 1500 a year, then start paying their health insurance premiums at 18 through their employer rather than free from their parents. They’ll bank 15k a year instead of 20k a year with no support. Not a big difference in the overall plan.

However, assuming no parent support for the non-college student but parental support for the college student is not a fair comparison. We have to levy the same penalty on the college-bound student and assume they are taking out loans for their cost of living if they’re staying in the dorms or an off-campus house. They’re also going to have to come up with their own health insurance entirely or buy through the schools plan, which is more money that has to be borrowed. The negative impact of the increase in the college student’s debt from lacking parental support is much, much greater than the extra 5000/yr the working 18 yr old will have to come up with to pay their bills. [/quote]

You are missing my point. Have you done this? This plan, have you done it? If no, dont tell me it works and it is better. I get that the math works, but the math of selling a business for $5M in your late 30’s beats this. It still has to be done and proven, and my example has lots of real life examples. Just go to any bookstore and look at the biography section.

[/quote]

What degree did you earn and what is your occupation if you don’t mind?[/quote]

Don’t mind at at. A have a BS in Business Management sepcialized in Entrepreneurship.

Without saying too much, I work in the travel industry doing business developement for the product I work with and run two consumer brand OTA’s for that product. Prior to that I worked in Finance.

59

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I never said I was a headhunter, I run a business. Your math works on paper but doesnt translate into real life. It is POSSIBLE but relies on support. An 18 year old who cant live with his/her parents has no car, no outside support cannot bank 21k cash a year. It also assumes no medical or real life instances that need money to fix.[/quote]

Sorry I missed this and forgot to respond to this.

For the sake of simplicity of the model, we’re going to assume in both examples that both the HS kid and the college-bound kid worked a summer job for 2 summers and saved up for a $5000 used car already by age 18. This is typical scenario for kids whose parents don’t have the money or inclination to provide them with their own vehicle.

Children up to 21 can stay on their parents health insurance for free. Full-time positions at places like Costco and Home Depot provide insurance. At 22, I have worked a 150/month co-payment for insurance into the formula to come up with my numbers. However, a freshly employed college grad is likely going to have the exact same copayment so this is no advantage for either party.

In my example as well, I have allowed 200-300$/month for the HS student to give to his parents for rent. If this scenario is not in the cards, the kid could move into a group house in the suburbs for an extra 1500 a year, then start paying their health insurance premiums at 18 through their employer rather than free from their parents. They’ll bank 15k a year instead of 20k a year with no support. Not a big difference in the overall plan.

However, assuming no parent support for the non-college student but parental support for the college student is not a fair comparison. We have to levy the same penalty on the college-bound student and assume they are taking out loans for their cost of living if they’re staying in the dorms or an off-campus house. They’re also going to have to come up with their own health insurance entirely or buy through the schools plan, which is more money that has to be borrowed. The negative impact of the increase in the college student’s debt from lacking parental support is much, much greater than the extra 5000/yr the working 18 yr old will have to come up with to pay their bills. [/quote]

You are missing my point. Have you done this? This plan, have you done it? If no, dont tell me it works and it is better. I get that the math works, but the math of selling a business for $5M in your late 30’s beats this. It still has to be done and proven, and my example has lots of real life examples. Just go to any bookstore and look at the biography section.

[/quote]

No, you’re missing the one missing the point entirely. The point you seem to be making is that for the most elite students or those that want to start a business, college is generally a good idea.

My point is that the average college graduate is not getting a good return on investment in their degree. Those without the talent or inclination to do anything but show up for a paycheck might as well just start working right out of high school, because the time and cost of a degree does not pay off if you are average. Key word, average.

Of course I have not done this. I had a full scholarship so this situation does not apply. My gripe is that if I did not have a scholarship, I would never have been able to execute such a plan, namely because having the foresight to execute such a plan at age 18 is not realistic, and no adult at the time would have suggested doing anything other than going to college would be a good idea. Finally, I would not work for $30,000 a year, even without a degree. It’s too easy to find work online for more than that even without a college degree. I used that the 25-30k/yr job as an example in this case because it is completely foolproof and very low risk.

Also selling a business for $5M at age 35 has nothing to do with this conversation. The top 5% of non-college graduates start businesses too. Anecdotes don’t belong in a conversation of statistics so why even go there. That would be like me saying that if you drop out of college and start a business like bill gates you’re definitely going to be as rich as him one day! Theoretically you could, but it is not likely, and it is certainly not going to happen for more than a few people in each generation.[/quote]

I am missing your point because I personally do not agree with it. My point, for what it is worth, is that you are using math to prove something. I am challenging you, that outside of your math, show me it works then I will beleive it. You are arguing a path you have never done and telling me it is better. I am arguing a path I have done and arguing it is better.

You are telling me my idea doesnt work because I am special unique snowflake. I am telling you your idea only works for special unique snowflakes.

BTW- ddmadox, you are 100% correct. You do not need an education to start a business, I actually did make that point that if you do not go to college, plan on being a business owner or professional investor. Own could argue though that investing in an education can help a business owner, but I agree with you in the sense that it is not required and real world experience can be better in some cases.

60

Also one thing I would like to point out, even those of us who are disagreeing about this main argument with college seem to be agreeing on this point that I thought it would be nice to point out.

Regarless of education or one’s prexisting state, they will not be financially well off or in anyway successful without financial IQ, strong work ethic, and perhaps the most important, the DESIRE and WANT to have financial wealth/freedom and the perks that come from it.

Education is a tool that can help you, college is just one form. Even in the example that Challer is using that I am debating(btw challer thanks for being able to have a nice and intellegent debate, didnt think that was possible here anymore :slight_smile: ) his ideal senario is contingent on the HS graduate having financial literacy as well as investment/saving strategy. One can argue that it doesnt come from thin air, rather some form of either former or informal education.

EDIT- because trying to argue the worth of a college degree is harmed when you spell it ‘stragety’ which sounds like something SNL would parody on a George W bit.