Coding Bootcamps

Off Topic
21

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]

To be clear, I’m not against the camps, per se. They probably are a great way to learn coding skills.

Acquiring coding skills will, without a doubt, be a good career step for someone who was loading trucks before. Your friend should be proud.

That said, I would be skeptical about salary and job placement claims. I think examining them in context before you make your decision is wise. Are people landing 80k/year jobs with no experience or additional education? Or do the people commanding that sort of salary have other qualifications? Are these jobs in areas with low, average, or high cost of living?

Take your friend, for example. Making more than twice of slightly higher than minimum wage would, at best, be putting him around 45k per year. That’s obviously better than minimum wage, but that’s not 80k per year.

The developer we just hired makes around 80k per year in a low cost of living state with a high quality of life (Maine). That puts her at slightly above the national average (for the software we use), which is quite good for a job outside of a major metro area.

She’s got decades of experience, a CS degree and is multi-lingual. A boot camp attendee with no additional experience or education would not have even been phone screened for this developer job.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I’m not talking you or anyone else out of this, but I would urge you to have realistic expectations about your employment and compensation prospects with this credential.

22

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]maverick88 wrote:
People in the industry know who he is.[/quote]
Which industry?[/quote]

Not going to reply for him but, what about the rest of the posts?

From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m grouped into this bunch. If it’s elitist to advise someone to run another cost-benefit analysis of a decision that will cost them a lot of money, then so be it. I doubt these camps offer anything that I wouldn’t be able to find for free or at a substantially lower cost.[/quote]

I can respect that, if you are that type of person. I have always learned better with hands on, structured work. When learning things on my own I always worry if I am learning optimally or wasting my time on certain things.

23

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]maverick88 wrote:
People in the industry know who he is.[/quote]
Which industry?[/quote]

Not going to reply for him but, what about the rest of the posts?

From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m grouped into this bunch. If it’s elitist to advise someone to run another cost-benefit analysis of a decision that will cost them a lot of money, then so be it. I doubt these camps offer anything that I wouldn’t be able to find for free or at a substantially lower cost.[/quote]

I’m a software developer and you can definitely find everything you need online for free. However there is so much to learn that it can be very overwhelming on where to start. These camps could help point you in the right direction.

24

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]

To be clear, I’m not against the camps, per se. They probably are a great way to learn coding skills.

Acquiring coding skills will, without a doubt, be a good career step for someone who was loading trucks before. Your friend should be proud.

That said, I would be skeptical about salary and job placement claims. I think examining them in context before you make your decision is wise. Are people landing 80k/year jobs with no experience or additional education? Or do the people commanding that sort of salary have other qualifications? Are these jobs in areas with low, average, or high cost of living?

Take your friend, for example. Making more than twice of slightly higher than minimum wage would, at best, be putting him around 45k per year. That’s obviously better than minimum wage, but that’s not 80k per year.

The developer we just hired makes around 80k per year in a low cost of living state with a high quality of life (Maine). That puts her at slightly above the national average (for the software we use), which is quite good for a job outside of a major metro area.

She’s got decades of experience, a CS degree and is multi-lingual. A boot camp attendee with no additional experience or education would not have even been phone screened for this developer job.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I’m not talking you or anyone else out of this, but I would urge you to have realistic expectations about your employment and compensation prospects with this credential.
[/quote]

I Like I said unless in certain areas I to think the numbers are high. However, at 20 yrs old for 5k he landed a job paying lets say 45k. That seems like a great investment. He can now also continue to learn in his spare time.

He makes over half, spent probably 10x less, spent years less to learn and is over a decade younger than the female you hired.

25

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]maverick88 wrote:
People in the industry know who he is.[/quote]
Which industry?[/quote]

Not going to reply for him but, what about the rest of the posts?

From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m grouped into this bunch. If it’s elitist to advise someone to run another cost-benefit analysis of a decision that will cost them a lot of money, then so be it. I doubt these camps offer anything that I wouldn’t be able to find for free or at a substantially lower cost.[/quote]

I can respect that, if you are that type of person. I have always learned better with hands on, structured work. When learning things on my own I always worry if I am learning optimally or wasting my time on certain things.

[/quote]
There is structured work available online. The difference a camp will offer is that you will get immediate help. That is both good and bad. Good as in that you can continue with the project immediately; however, I do think you miss a valuable skill that comes with gathering information, troubleshooting for yourself, and really grinding through an issue. You won’t always get immediate assistance, but it can go either way.

I’m not necessarily trying to talk you out of utilizing a camp. I would just like you to consider alternatives and make a decision based on more information.

26

[quote]hmm87 wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]maverick88 wrote:
People in the industry know who he is.[/quote]
Which industry?[/quote]

Not going to reply for him but, what about the rest of the posts?

From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m grouped into this bunch. If it’s elitist to advise someone to run another cost-benefit analysis of a decision that will cost them a lot of money, then so be it. I doubt these camps offer anything that I wouldn’t be able to find for free or at a substantially lower cost.[/quote]

I’m a software developer and you can definitely find everything you need online for free. However there is so much to learn that it can be very overwhelming on where to start. These camps could help point you in the right direction.[/quote]
I agree. I just don’t want OP to limit his options.

27

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]

To be clear, I’m not against the camps, per se. They probably are a great way to learn coding skills.

Acquiring coding skills will, without a doubt, be a good career step for someone who was loading trucks before. Your friend should be proud.

That said, I would be skeptical about salary and job placement claims. I think examining them in context before you make your decision is wise. Are people landing 80k/year jobs with no experience or additional education? Or do the people commanding that sort of salary have other qualifications? Are these jobs in areas with low, average, or high cost of living?

Take your friend, for example. Making more than twice of slightly higher than minimum wage would, at best, be putting him around 45k per year. That’s obviously better than minimum wage, but that’s not 80k per year.

The developer we just hired makes around 80k per year in a low cost of living state with a high quality of life (Maine). That puts her at slightly above the national average (for the software we use), which is quite good for a job outside of a major metro area.

She’s got decades of experience, a CS degree and is multi-lingual. A boot camp attendee with no additional experience or education would not have even been phone screened for this developer job.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I’m not talking you or anyone else out of this, but I would urge you to have realistic expectations about your employment and compensation prospects with this credential.
[/quote]

I Like I said unless in certain areas I to think the numbers are high. However, at 20 yrs old for 5k he landed a job paying lets say 45k. That seems like a great investment. He can now also continue to learn in his spare time.

He makes over half, spent probably 10x less, spent years less to learn and is over a decade younger than the female you hired.
[/quote]
How do you know that this the height of her career? How rapidly do you think your friend’s pay will progress?

28

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]

To be clear, I’m not against the camps, per se. They probably are a great way to learn coding skills.

Acquiring coding skills will, without a doubt, be a good career step for someone who was loading trucks before. Your friend should be proud.

That said, I would be skeptical about salary and job placement claims. I think examining them in context before you make your decision is wise. Are people landing 80k/year jobs with no experience or additional education? Or do the people commanding that sort of salary have other qualifications? Are these jobs in areas with low, average, or high cost of living?

Take your friend, for example. Making more than twice of slightly higher than minimum wage would, at best, be putting him around 45k per year. That’s obviously better than minimum wage, but that’s not 80k per year.

The developer we just hired makes around 80k per year in a low cost of living state with a high quality of life (Maine). That puts her at slightly above the national average (for the software we use), which is quite good for a job outside of a major metro area.

She’s got decades of experience, a CS degree and is multi-lingual. A boot camp attendee with no additional experience or education would not have even been phone screened for this developer job.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I’m not talking you or anyone else out of this, but I would urge you to have realistic expectations about your employment and compensation prospects with this credential.
[/quote]

I Like I said unless in certain areas I to think the numbers are high. However, at 20 yrs old for 5k he landed a job paying lets say 45k. That seems like a great investment. He can now also continue to learn in his spare time.

He makes over half, spent probably 10x less, spent years less to learn and is over a decade younger than the female you hired.
[/quote]

I do not think your comparison is a meaningful one.

Your buddy has a credential.

My developer has many.

Your buddy has a job.

My developer has a career.

Your buddy’s ceiling is not very high without acquiring some combination of more experience or more credentials. That credential is all he’s got, and while it is enough to land that job he’s got now, it won’t get him much further than that unless he has exceptional talent.

My developer’s ceiling is around 100k if she wants to remain a salary employee. If she goes independent her ceiling could be much higher, with hourly billing rates upwards of $100 being quite realistic.

I can’t tell you what a reasonable expectation would be with having this credential. If you think it is worth it, go get it. Just don’t kid yourself that it is in any way whatsoever a substitute for more education and experience.

29

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]

To be clear, I’m not against the camps, per se. They probably are a great way to learn coding skills.

Acquiring coding skills will, without a doubt, be a good career step for someone who was loading trucks before. Your friend should be proud.

That said, I would be skeptical about salary and job placement claims. I think examining them in context before you make your decision is wise. Are people landing 80k/year jobs with no experience or additional education? Or do the people commanding that sort of salary have other qualifications? Are these jobs in areas with low, average, or high cost of living?

Take your friend, for example. Making more than twice of slightly higher than minimum wage would, at best, be putting him around 45k per year. That’s obviously better than minimum wage, but that’s not 80k per year.

The developer we just hired makes around 80k per year in a low cost of living state with a high quality of life (Maine). That puts her at slightly above the national average (for the software we use), which is quite good for a job outside of a major metro area.

She’s got decades of experience, a CS degree and is multi-lingual. A boot camp attendee with no additional experience or education would not have even been phone screened for this developer job.

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I’m not talking you or anyone else out of this, but I would urge you to have realistic expectations about your employment and compensation prospects with this credential.
[/quote]

I Like I said unless in certain areas I to think the numbers are high. However, at 20 yrs old for 5k he landed a job paying lets say 45k. That seems like a great investment. He can now also continue to learn in his spare time.

He makes over half, spent probably 10x less, spent years less to learn and is over a decade younger than the female you hired.
[/quote]

I do not think your comparison is a meaningful one.

Your buddy has a credential.

My developer has many.

Your buddy has a job.

My developer has a career.

Your buddy’s ceiling is not very high without acquiring some combination of more experience or more credentials. That credential is all he’s got, and while it is enough to land that job he’s got now, it won’t get him much further than that unless he has exceptional talent.

My developer’s ceiling is around 100k if she wants to remain a salary employee. If she goes independent her ceiling could be much higher, with hourly billing rates upwards of $100 being quite realistic.

I can’t tell you what a reasonable expectation would be with having this credential. If you think it is worth it, go get it. Just don’t kid yourself that it is in any way whatsoever a substitute for more education and experience.
[/quote]
^ This. 80k is fairly humble with those credentials depending on location. My buddy knows a guy making 160k with just an Associate’s. I don’t really know what he does.

30

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]maverick88 wrote:
People in the industry know who he is.[/quote]
Which industry?[/quote]

Not going to reply for him but, what about the rest of the posts?

From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m grouped into this bunch. If it’s elitist to advise someone to run another cost-benefit analysis of a decision that will cost them a lot of money, then so be it. I doubt these camps offer anything that I wouldn’t be able to find for free or at a substantially lower cost.[/quote]

I can respect that, if you are that type of person. I have always learned better with hands on, structured work. When learning things on my own I always worry if I am learning optimally or wasting my time on certain things.[/quote]
Please don’t take offense at this, but if that’s the case, software development may not be the right choice for you then.

Most “real” programming work is completely novel; you can’t just find an answer in a book or online. Day to day, it’s problem solving, of problems you’ve literally never encountered before. You solve a problem once so you don’t ever have to do it again.

By means of comparison:

A doctor goes to school to learn how to treat sick patients. It’s certainly more complicated than this, but day to day work is… when a patient has X, Y and Z symptoms, you run this test and give them that medication. Next time you see a patient that has the same symptoms, you do the same thing. The time after that, the same. For the most part, it’s just the same things over and over again. Here and there, you get an exception, something different than normal that requires some thought and research.

Many jobs are that way. Software development is not.

With software development, there is no normal or regular. Every day is dealing with the exceptions, the abnormalities, the things you’ve never seen before. Once you deal with them, you never see them again.

As such, problem solving skill is critical. As is confidence in your ability to understand what’s going on, make a decision, stick with that decision, and correct it as you go on. And being very quick at researching and learning new things. (You don’t necessarily have to remember everything, but you do need to remember where to find the answer in the future.)

Because of this, there’s also a fairly high burnout rate in the industry, since your brain rarely gets a rest. This is why companies that offer great work/life balance programs do very well (and are hard to get into). The enthusiasm of the first few years can lead to early burnout, if you’re not careful. Some companies take advantage of that and work people into the ground while they’re still fresh. Others don’t.

31

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
^ This. 80k is fairly humble with those credentials depending on location. My buddy knows a guy making 160k with just an Associate’s. I don’t really know what he does.[/quote]

Supply and demand, not to mention the huge swath of work that falls under the “developer” umbrella. If you’ve got an in-demand skill that few others have, you can be making bank.

I would wager that your buddy’s buddy is either exceptionally talented, embellishing his earnings or some combination thereof.

She was making over 100k in Boston. Maine, however, ain’t Boston, and 80k here goes a lot further than 100k in Boston.

Some perspective:

32

[quote]LoRez wrote:

"These academies are a great way
to identify programming talent, but
Hack Reactor is the Harvard of them all

[/quote]

I’m surprised nobody pointed out the absurdity of this statement… comparing one educational provider to another. So, it’s like the Versacci of socks? Or the ferrari of minivans?

I think the academies are great for 3 people:
1: Very smart people that pick up things quick and just need the basics
2: Folks looking to get into a basic job
3: People w/ ideas and just want to start their own company/products. It doesn’t need to be working perfectly, just enough to get going

A 4 year CS grad here makes about 35-40k starting (it’s a crappy state). With that pay, you’re probably better off just starting your own company… especially with all the public monies going into economic and entrepreneurial development.

I’m not a developer, but I do some coding here and there. I constantly refer to about 3-4 different types of code and don’t really know what they mean or even their basic structure, but there’s enough resources out there to figure it out.

Here’s another free learning resource:

I’m rambling/procrastinating. Have a good weekend everyone.

33

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:
^ This. 80k is fairly humble with those credentials depending on location. My buddy knows a guy making 160k with just an Associate’s. I don’t really know what he does.[/quote]

Supply and demand, not to mention the huge swath of work that falls under the “developer” umbrella. If you’ve got an in-demand skill that few others have, you can be making bank.

I would wager that your buddy’s buddy is either exceptionally talented, embellishing his earnings or some combination thereof.

She was making over 100k in Boston. Maine, however, ain’t Boston, and 80k here goes a lot further than 100k in Boston.

Some perspective:

[/quote]
Yeah. The cost of living matters a lot.

Now that my memory has been jogged, I’ll ask about what he does.

34

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Which would you rather be?[/quote]
thats easy,

I’d rather be the guy who can work on the time machine cars…go back in time and pick winning lottery numbers
[/quote]
Smart man.

35

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]carbiduis wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Which would you rather be?[/quote]
thats easy,

I’d rather be the guy who can work on the time machine cars…go back in time and pick winning lottery numbers
[/quote]
Smart man.[/quote]
Go back in time to yesterday.

36

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]maverick88 wrote:
People in the industry know who he is.[/quote]
Which industry?[/quote]

Not going to reply for him but, what about the rest of the posts?

From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m grouped into this bunch. If it’s elitist to advise someone to run another cost-benefit analysis of a decision that will cost them a lot of money, then so be it. I doubt these camps offer anything that I wouldn’t be able to find for free or at a substantially lower cost.[/quote]

I can respect that, if you are that type of person. I have always learned better with hands on, structured work. When learning things on my own I always worry if I am learning optimally or wasting my time on certain things.

[/quote]
There is structured work available online. The difference a camp will offer is that you will get immediate help. That is both good and bad. Good as in that you can continue with the project immediately; however, I do think you miss a valuable skill that comes with gathering information, troubleshooting for yourself, and really grinding through an issue. You won’t always get immediate assistance, but it can go either way.

I’m not necessarily trying to talk you out of utilizing a camp. I would just like you to consider alternatives and make a decision based on more information.[/quote]

Any recommendations for online sources?

37

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]maverick88 wrote:
People in the industry know who he is.[/quote]
Which industry?[/quote]

Not going to reply for him but, what about the rest of the posts?

From what I have read a lot of people against the camps come across as elitists because they either went to school or learned on their own.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m grouped into this bunch. If it’s elitist to advise someone to run another cost-benefit analysis of a decision that will cost them a lot of money, then so be it. I doubt these camps offer anything that I wouldn’t be able to find for free or at a substantially lower cost.[/quote]

I can respect that, if you are that type of person. I have always learned better with hands on, structured work. When learning things on my own I always worry if I am learning optimally or wasting my time on certain things.

[/quote]
There is structured work available online. The difference a camp will offer is that you will get immediate help. That is both good and bad. Good as in that you can continue with the project immediately; however, I do think you miss a valuable skill that comes with gathering information, troubleshooting for yourself, and really grinding through an issue. You won’t always get immediate assistance, but it can go either way.

I’m not necessarily trying to talk you out of utilizing a camp. I would just like you to consider alternatives and make a decision based on more information.[/quote]

Any recommendations for online sources?
[/quote]
For courses:

cousera.org
udacity.com (best one in my opinion)

For forums:

For version control and collaboration:

There’s a lot more, but those are the ones I am most familiar with. Also, look into open source documentation and various books on different aspects of software development. I know Ruby and Python have their own books completely free in pdf. A language typically has its own open source documentation already, so if you were looking into something like Python or Scala, just google their documentation. With a procedural language like C, you might be better off with a textbook, but it’s not necessary. You have a vast quantity of resources at your disposal.

38

Moving away from the languages and technologies, the CLRS book, “Introduction to Algorithms” is worth studying.

There’s nothing easy about that book. It takes a long time to wrap your head around, in a number of ways, and you’ll probably have to learn quite a bit to even begin reading it. The perspectives and approaches to problem solving and optimization are things that pay off down the road.

39

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Moving away from the languages and technologies, the CLRS book, “Introduction to Algorithms” is worth studying.

There’s nothing easy about that book. It takes a long time to wrap your head around, in a number of ways, and you’ll probably have to learn quite a bit to even begin reading it. The perspectives and approaches to problem solving and optimization are things that pay off down the road.[/quote]
Good post.

OP, make sure you remember to learn about algorithms and data structures. Understanding them will make a huge difference. Coursera has some courses on algorithms as well.

40

Lot of good posts here, in my opinion.

These boot camps don’t seem like a bad idea, but there’s no guarantee for work. There are lots of other avenues for education resources. Not saying one is better than the other, but, in practice, I don’t know anyone, at least in my field or “circle of techie” world that’s ever taken one or spoke of hiring or working with someone who had.

I will offer this-- some of the best programmers/developers, and I mean brilliant, don’t have degrees in C.S. or formal programming education. They probably got some kind of training or book or something along the way.

If I need a developer, I look for someone who has “subject matter expertise”. For example, if I have someone with 5 years as a pipeline inspector or operator, and they’re looking to get into development and have had some experience and can demonstrate competence, I’ll take them over a straight programmer of 3-5 years. In reality, that person brings more value to the life of the software, or the customer interactions.

They don’t teach “onsite at customer skills” at software bootcamp. Having said that, you have to put time in with the coding. Having subject matter and a problem to solve, I think, helps guide the learning.

I think learning to wrap-up/customize existing API’s for a particular problem is more common than coding everything “from nothing”.