[quote]vroom wrote:
Do you have ANYTHING at all to back up your latest claims?
[/quote]
Um, ok how about a gallup poll from 2002
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002/02/27/usat-poll.htm
-M
[quote]Sloth wrote:
http://www.memritv.org/default.asp
This is a good site to view TV media from the mideast. This organization translates and puts up the videos.[/quote]
Nice link. Wow, these people are more messed up than I feared.
-M
[quote]vroom wrote:
Sloth wrote:
The problem with your response starts here. You quoted only one of my responses. I quote you, “You can’t point to A nutbar conspiracy theorist…” I didn’t point to A nutbar conspiracy theorist. I pointed out that the VAST majority of muslims, in the muslim world, are nutbar conspiracy theorists. Don’t get mad at me, I didn’t conduct the gallup poll and other research on the subject.
Zionists behind 9-11, indeed.
Think Jim Jones and David Koresh, on a massive scale. That’s the kind of indoctrination you’re dealing with.
You are really stuck on holding everything as an impossibility aren’t you?
Do you have ANYTHING at all to back up your latest claims?
Regardless, if you were to actually consider my response, you would see that it is not based on an assumption of numbers, but instead the existence of various groups.
Open up your mind just a tiny little bit and realize that your first knee-jerk thought isn’t the end all be all that you attempt to impose it as.[/quote]
Look above for my post with the gallup poll. The vast majority in the muslim world believe 9-11 was carried out by zionists and the Bush admin. I’ve already refrenced it in this post.
[quote]ramadano wrote:
Um, ok how about a gallup poll from 2002
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002/02/27/usat-poll.htm
-M
[/quote]
That’s great, and it shows the level of propaganda, misinformation and rumor that is driving opinion, attitudes and hence actions over there.
Is anyone dumb enough to think that they magically hate us for no reason? The reasons may be contrived and spread due to misinformation and propaganda, but there are always reasons behind something.
However, as I told Sloth, while the numbers are not good, it isn’t true that “everyone” has this or that attitude or belief, either. It isn’t impossible to influence opinion, though it is probably not possible for us personally to do anything about it.
Years of concerted effort to counter the propaganda would be required, and the more blatant such actions were the less likely they would be productive. I doubt there will be any serious movement in this regard, though I really wish there would be.
It would be far less costly than throwing away billions of dollars and thousands of lives. It wouldn’t be as impressive on the news though, as nobody would ever hear about it… if things went well.
At the very least this CNN special should open the eyes of a lot of people to the types of information that people are growing up observing. The level of hatred, mistrust and so forth directed as US media is almost funny, especially when you see what real propaganda and lies look like.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Look above for my post with the gallup poll. The vast majority in the muslim world believe 9-11 was carried out by zionists and the Bush admin. I’ve already refrenced it in this post.[/quote]
And which part of that makes you think it wouldn’t be useful to counter such propaganda and the hatred it perpetuates?
As I said, it doesn’t matter what the vast majority believe, it matters what action is taken to improve things. Frankly, the war is not winning hearts and minds, is it?
[quote]vroom wrote:
That’s great, and it shows the level of propaganda, misinformation and rumor that is driving opinion, attitudes and hence actions over there.
Is anyone dumb enough to think that they magically hate us for no reason? The reasons may be contrived and spread due to misinformation and propaganda, but there are always reasons behind something.
However, as I told Sloth, while the numbers are not good, it isn’t true that “everyone” has this or that attitude or belief, either. It isn’t impossible to influence opinion, though it is probably not possible for us personally to do anything about it.
Years of concerted effort to counter the propaganda would be required, and the more blatant such actions were the less likely they would be productive. I doubt there will be any serious movement in this regard, though I really wish there would be.
It would be far less costly than throwing away billions of dollars and thousands of lives. It wouldn’t be as impressive on the news though, as nobody would ever hear about it… if things went well.
At the very least this CNN special should open the eyes of a lot of people to the types of information that people are growing up observing. The level of hatred, mistrust and so forth directed as US media is almost funny, especially when you see what real propaganda and lies look like.[/quote]
I for the most part agree. I don’t think it is that they hate us for no reason. I think it is that they hate us for false reasons which requires much different action. Check out the “protocols of zion stuff” from some of the clips from he memritv site. This is amazing. They debunked before WWII but this doesn’t stop these guys from continuing to use it in 2006.
The problem is that their governments (who control state TV in much of the middle east) are good at this kind of thing and our ability to combat this kind of thing for “hearts and minds” is nonexistent since any info we try to put out can only get to the people through them.
Check out the 9/11 stuff on that site. They are claiming there were no Jews in the WTC that day. I PERSONALLY know a Jewish guy who was in the tower and evacuated when the first plane hit. He survived by crawling out 60 floors on his hands and knees.
We had the 9/11 commission, discovery channel specials, it was all over the media etc. Arab TV, however, is still saying we never investigated and because Jew and our government were responsible.
I’m just saying that I would have had a completely different view on the war had I known the views of people over there were already so poisoned. We should have known about this stuff long before Becks little special.
-M
[quote]vroom wrote:
Frankly, the war is not winning hearts and minds, is it?[/quote]
We didn’t win the hearts and minds of the Germans or the Japanese. They were crushed and given only one real option for moving forward. Obviously this is a different situation, but when has “winning the hearts and minds” of an enemy ever worked for anyone?
[quote]doogie wrote:
vroom wrote:
Frankly, the war is not winning hearts and minds, is it?
We didn’t win the hearts and minds of the Germans or the Japanese. They were crushed and given only one real option for moving forward. Obviously this is a different situation, but when has “winning the hearts and minds” of an enemy ever worked for anyone?[/quote]
I think Vroom was being a teensy sarcastic. Winning Hearts and Minds is a code phrase for military adventurism where only political solutions are possible. The joke is that, historically, it’s very hard to win their hearts and minds when you’re slaughtering them by the score.
Get it?
[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
doogie wrote:
vroom wrote:
Frankly, the war is not winning hearts and minds, is it?
We didn’t win the hearts and minds of the Germans or the Japanese. They were crushed and given only one real option for moving forward. Obviously this is a different situation, but when has “winning the hearts and minds” of an enemy ever worked for anyone?
I think Vroom was being a teensy sarcastic. Winning Hearts and Minds is a code phrase for military adventurism where only political solutions are possible. The joke is that, historically, it’s very hard to win their hearts and minds when you’re slaughtering them by the score.
Get it?[/quote]
I get it. I should have quoted one of his earlier posts about countering the propaganda. It doesn’t matter what they believe as long as they don’t have the means to act on it.
[quote]doogie wrote:
I get it. I should have quoted one of his earlier posts about countering the propaganda. It doesn’t matter what they believe as long as they don’t have the means to act on it.[/quote]
Doogie, your view is too insular. It does matter what the world thinks because technology makes it more and more possible for a single person to affect an entire nation.
As time goes on the world gets smaller. Wait, no, this is only an analogy, don’t freak out! With the Internet any mind controlled freak in the Middle East can post a message available to any numbnuts anywhere in the world.
Any numnuts anywhere in the world can then take action, quite easily and in very difficult to detect ways, causing major strife. This problem is not limited to the current realm of Islamofascism, but just about any nutjob ideology that decides to hate on another.
However, if you like spending trillions of dollars a year to the exclusion of your education and health systems, as well as having young men and women fighting overseas, then I guess it doesn’t matter what the world thinks at all. Personally, I’d imagine that getting everyone on the same page, with respect to facts (not ideologies) would go a long way towards misunderstanding, miscommunication and resulting misconflict.
Think beyond the hatred and desire to crush your enemies, there are wider issues in the long term that can be addressed. Besides, if you keep wasting all your resources in and on the Middle East then China is going to end up eating your lunch soon.
Ah well, I suppose that doesn’t matter either does it? I suppose if you want to look at things in a certain way then nothing matters… why even bother arguing about it!
Here we go again – I can’t believe people are really falling for an infomercial on why we need to attack Iran. What a giant load of crap…
Glenn Beck interviews Benjamin Netanyahu
Media Tall Tales for the Next War
Now, warning signs are profuse: The Bush administration has Iran in the Pentagon’s sights. And the drive toward war, fueled by double standards about nuclear development and human rights, is getting a big boost from U.S. media coverage that portrays the president as reluctant to launch an attack on Iran.
Time magazine reports that “from the State Department to the White House to the highest reaches of the military command, there is a growing sense that a showdown with Iran… may be impossible to avoid.”
The same kind of media spin - assuming a sincere Bush desire to avoid war - was profuse in the months before the invasion of Iraq. The more that news outlets tell such fairy tales, the more they become part of the war machinery.
Cooking Intelligence Again
You may recall that Undersecretary Bolton and his chief of staff Fleitz were point-men in the largely successful attempts by the Cheney Cabal to cook the intelligence in the run-up to the preemptive attack on Iraq.
Looks like they’re at it again.
Same Assholes, same bullshit – different war…
Bomb Iran
Diplomacy is doing nothing to stop the Iranian nuclear threat; a show of force is the only answer.
Kristol Suggests People of Iran Would Embrace U.S. Attack, Triggering Regime Change
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/07/19/kristol-iran/
Fox News: Iran May ‘Pull Nuclear Trigger’ Tomorrow
http://www.newshounds.us/2006/08/21/fox_news_iran_may_pull_nuclear_trigger_tomorrow.php
Lobbying on Iran, groups strive to play down the Jewish angle
NEW YORK, May 10 (JTA) - With concern mounting over Iran’s atomic ambitions, the American Jewish community is lobbying intensively to ensure that the threat is taken seriously by the United States, the media and the world.
Careful to avoid giving the impression that it’s primarily an issue of Jewish or Israeli concern, however, U.S. Jewish groups are taking pains to highlight the greater regional and global threats posed by a nuclear Iran and its Holocaust-denying president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=16593&intcategoryid=4
Just like with Iraq, the “liberal media” downplays some very useful info in the run-up to war…
British Find No Evidence Of Arms Traffic From Iran
“I have not myself seen any evidence – and I don’t think any evidence exists – of government-supported or instigated” armed support on Iran’s part in Iraq, British Defense Secretary Des Browne said in an interview in Baghdad in late August.
Group Says Iran Is “Not a Crisis”
Washington - Seeking to counter the White House’s depiction of its Middle East policies as crucial to the prevention of terrorist attacks at home, 21 former generals, diplomats and national security officials will release an open letter tomorrow arguing that the administration’s “hard line” has actually undermined U.S. security.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/081606K.shtml
Iran Is Judged 10 Years From Nuclear Bomb
U.S. Intelligence Review Contrasts With Administration Statements
CIA analysis finds no Iranian nuclear weapons drive: report
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061119/ts_afp/usirannuclearweaponsmilitary_061119034024
British believe Bush is more dangerous than Kim Jong-il
America is now seen as a threat to world peace by its closest neighbours and allies, according to an international survey of public opinion published today that reveals just how far the country’s reputation has fallen among former supporters since the invasion of Iraq.
Carried out as US voters prepare to go to the polls next week in an election dominated by the war, the research also shows that British voters see George Bush as a greater danger to world peace than either the North Korean leader, Kim Jong-il, or the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Both countries were once cited by the US president as part of an “axis of evil”, but it is Mr Bush who now alarms voters in countries with traditionally strong links to the US…
Gee, just wait till we bomb Iran…
[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Funny, from the Communist News Network.
I’m sure CNN will offer and interesting spin on it. Chances are you’re gonna sit through 59 minutes of ‘reporting’ and then they devote the last minute to tell you why it’s Bush’s fault.[/quote]
To get spin, you first have to turn to the no spin fox network. And where have you been? Everything is Bush’s fault.
Yup, It was in the Financial Times too. Something like, “War with Iran likely” or something to that end.
If I were a young man in high school, I’d be checking out the job market in Canada.
There is no end to this bullshit.
[quote]Hack Wilson wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Funny, from the Communist News Network.
I’m sure CNN will offer and interesting spin on it. Chances are you’re gonna sit through 59 minutes of ‘reporting’ and then they devote the last minute to tell you why it’s Bush’s fault.[/quote]
Well, it just might be.
This was a piece I ran across about propaganda in the US media concerning the Israel Palestinian conflict.
It is cool how they show what the media in the US showed, and what media in the UK showed. They also say the BBC is one of the only US news sources found to report more on facts of the particular issue.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696
I’d just like to say that all news is propaganda, except undescriptive fact, such as ‘Mary Smith died last night, aged 83 years’.
[quote]dannyrat wrote:
I’d just like to say that all news is propaganda, except undescriptive fact, such as ‘Mary Smith died last night, aged 83 years’. [/quote]
I understand where you are coming from, but it’s a bit over the top. What is true is that it is difficult not to attach a viewpoint to the presentation of news.
However, a viewpoint does not equate to propaganda, it takes more than that.
I am leery of those that claim all news is propaganda. It seems to be a cry that is used to justify or allow extremes of nonsense from certain sources, because other sources are “just propaganda” as well, supposedly.
There are also “levels” of propaganda, just as there are “levels” in most other human activity. If you speed on the highway you are breaking a law. If you kill someone you are breaking a law. I think we can all judge what is generally regarded as the worse transgression.
Don’t mistake the fact that viewpoints and propaganda are potentially present in most news broadcasts with an equality of propaganda or intent from all sources.
You don’t get to stop applying your own careful judgment of what you are watching just because supposedly “everybody does it”. Finally, you can extracts the facts from a broadcast, assuming the facts are indeed factual, leaving the opinion and innuendo out.
If you can’t do so, then you aren’t even watching news (however, there are many ignorant people who can’t, and that’s potentially a question of their ignorance, not necessarily the quality of the broadcast).