Why isn’t Zeb being called a cop hater? I mean, I got called for simply questioning a cop’s actions.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Why is any one surprised? Create a government that can tax you at will, confiscate your property, give it lots of power, and look what you get.
Didn’t know this was the result of your welfare state, FightinIrish? You voted for it, you enabled it, it is yours. Enjoy.[/quote]
Jesus man. This has nothing to do with a “welfare state”. You will never find people who fight harder to preserve individual rights than a leftist, although libertarians are a close second. Either way, Florida is a republican state as I recall, so who the hell are you kidding? Take your Rand-ian philosophies elsewhere.
Nice post Zeb.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Why is any one surprised? Create a government that can tax you at will, confiscate your property, give it lots of power, and look what you get.
Didn’t know this was the result of your welfare state, FightinIrish? You voted for it, you enabled it, it is yours. Enjoy.
Jesus man. This has nothing to do with a “welfare state”. You will never find people who fight harder to preserve individual rights than a leftist, although libertarians are a close second. Either way, Florida is a republican state as I recall, so who the hell are you kidding? Take your Rand-ian philosophies elsewhere.[/quote]
A CLOSE SECOND!!! Lest we forget, “individual rights” include the right to one’s personal property. Keep Locke in mind: life, liberty, and property. The Left may take the first two seriously, but it doesn’t hesitate to confiscate the latter for the “greater” good. Libertarians on the other hand, take all three seriously…
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Why is any one surprised? Create a government that can tax you at will, confiscate your property, give it lots of power, and look what you get.
Didn’t know this was the result of your welfare state, FightinIrish? You voted for it, you enabled it, it is yours. Enjoy.
Jesus man. This has nothing to do with a “welfare state”. You will never find people who fight harder to preserve individual rights than a leftist, although libertarians are a close second. Either way, Florida is a republican state as I recall, so who the hell are you kidding? Take your Rand-ian philosophies elsewhere.
A CLOSE SECOND!!! Lest we forget, “individual rights” include the right to one’s personal property. Keep Locke in mind: life, liberty, and property. The Left may take the first two seriously, but it doesn’t hesitate to confiscate the latter for the “greater” good. Libertarians on the other hand, take all three seriously… [/quote]
When the state has the power to do wealth transfers, this means that someone has to have their wealth taken away, to be distributed to others. Does anyone doubt (1) power tends to accumulate (2) power attracts those who enjoy wielding power over others? The alleged good intentions soon begin evolving, until we get a very powerful, dominating government.
Please point out to me if I am wrong in this assessment.
Nah, then Bruce Willis and Samuel L Jackson would team up and take you down.
[quote]orion wrote:
etaco wrote:
Note to self:
Drive around Miami until I find a “random show of force” replete with a ton of police officers. Drive to other side of town and rob bank.
Why not make a terrorist threat yourself and THEN rob a bank at the other side of town?
Might as well do it right…
[/quote]
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
This scares you?
Even the ACLU was non-plussed.
Yea I read that. Screw’em. Their too busy trying to get the word “Christmas” stricken from the phrase “Christmas Tree” to worry about something like this I guess.
It just seems all very…Un- American I guess. Certain founding fathers would have a serious problem with random ID checks I think.[/quote]
I would have to agree. Our founding fathers were were pissed that they were taxed without their consent. If they were asked to show id on demand, they’d have gone batshit. “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin
ZEB, you’re scaring me dude. I’m finding myself agreeing with you more and more.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
When the state has the power to do wealth transfers, this means that someone has to have their wealth taken away, to be distributed to others. Does anyone doubt (1) power tends to accumulate (2) power attracts those who enjoy wielding power over others? The alleged good intentions soon begin evolving, until we get a very powerful, dominating government.
Please point out to me if I am wrong in this assessment.[/quote]
Isn’t this what we have going on right now? Who is currently in charge? Who has the majority? Political affiliation has nothing to do with power-mad psychos. They exist no matter what group they belong to. Democrats did it for 40 years, the Republicans for the last 10 years. The political affiliation for these types is just a means to an end.
i get my ID checked every day I go to work, We frequently have checks for ID, drivers license, and insurance and registration. Sure its a bit of a hassle, but it ensures that you don’t have some yahoo running around with ill-intent where I work. I say bring on the ID checks.
[quote]drew6 wrote:
i get my ID checked every day I go to work, We frequently have checks for ID, drivers license, and insurance and registration. Sure its a bit of a hassle, but it ensures that you don’t have some yahoo running around with ill-intent where I work. I say bring on the ID checks.[/quote]
That’s at your JOB. They do the same on military bases to a much larger extreme. That doesn’t mean I should get ID’d whenever I go to the grocery store because of random terror checks for no reason.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
snipeout wrote:
There you go reading into words, if they are spoon fed to you you don’t understand. If I can articulate the threat to myself and others I have no reason to worry about an investigation. Secondly,
That is not the point!
Honest law abiding citizens should not be subject to a shakedown by City, County, State or Federal Police. The rule of law needs to apply in every situation.
Harassing people outside of a bank is one of the worst ideas I have ever read for fighting terrorism. If it were not so frightening it would be laughable!
It’s almost as bad as President Bush’s Homeland Security idea. This costs the taxpayers untold of dollars, And for what? So that federal police can be placed in towns to watch borders and other hot spots?
Bullcrap!
The reality of it is that they end up backing up local Police when they make V&T stops. Is this supposed to be the best way to fight terrorism? And these federal police are making at times 35% more than the local police departments pay their officers. This is a supreme waste of tax dollars.
Why not spend those dollars in enhancing local Sheriff and Police departments on a city and countywide basis? Give control back to the local organizations that know the local people and terrain. This is supposed to be a republican ideal, which has been lost on this President, I am sorry to say.
When have big government programs administered from Washington ever worked the way we wanted them to?
Back to your post…
I was stating that if a police officer wants your ID he is going to get it, not saying that we go around looking for reasons to fuck with law abiding citizens. Trust me I have much better things to do.
And this is the most telling of all your comments. I want everyone on the forum to reread these two sentences that you just posted. So, no matter the circumstances if YOU want my Id YOU are going to get it. Do I have that right? Regardless if I have done anything wrong. That ?s the type of statement that wreaks of abuse my friend!
You also stated that you have better things to do. This leaves me to assume that if you didn’t have better things to do you would be “fucking with me.”
These are the type’s of statement’s that make me far more concerned about YOU and the potential harm that YOU can do, than any terrorist. I have never once been harassed by a terrorist. However, YOU just posed such a threat on this board.
Statements like these are not very comforting.
I deal with alot more scrutiny on a daily basis than most of you. It’s a constant defense of actions to the public and administration.
And you should be under plenty of scrutiny. You carry a badge a gun and have the authority at the drop of a hat to take away someone’s freedom, or even take a life. This might not be a big deal to YOU, but to those of us who have the potential to be on the receiving end, it’s a very big deal.
a majority of US(civil servants) take the job to help people, not create ways to scam and kill them.
I do agree with this. However, under certain situations even the most well intended group of law enforcement officers, if unchecked can become abusive and trample innocent citizens rights!
Quite honestly I am far more concerned about state and federal law officers running amuck than I am of terrorism. We cannot allow this terrorism threat to change our way of life in America. When that happens the terrorists have won.
We have good law enforcement as it stands. All we need do now is continue to be vigilant. Allow the system to work as it stands. You know as well as I do that most of the good busts that occur are from tips sent in by ordinary people. This is exactly how the war on terrorism (in this country) will be won, by ordinary people!
I would say without any fear of repercussion that today a couple of wackos with box cutters could not commandeer a jet and run it into their designated target.
Why, because people are wiser now. They are aware of the terrorist threat and will react accordingly. And if something looks suspicious the proper police agency will get a phone call from Mr. John Q. Public. Or, as I have stated the average citizen will act on the spot!
We live in a different world than pre 9-11 to be sure. However, not different enough to hand our freedoms over to ANY police authority for safekeeping. As it has been shown time and again that simply doesn?t work. As police authority unchecked leads to more danger to its citizenry than any outside threat from a terrorist ever could!
“America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.”
Abraham Lincoln
[/quote]
What about if a creepy brown guy with a towel around his head takes pictures of the aforementioned bank and now Police curround it and ask everyone for ID? Does this change your views? Should they have to tell everyone why they are checking IDs?
Granted random stunts just to show “strength” are assinine. But it’d be foolish to not flex a little muscle if there is a good chance the “bad guys” are watching, and going to see we give a couple fucks.
[quote]Garrett W. wrote:
ZEB wrote:
snipeout wrote:
There you go reading into words, if they are spoon fed to you you don’t understand. If I can articulate the threat to myself and others I have no reason to worry about an investigation. Secondly,
That is not the point!
Honest law abiding citizens should not be subject to a shakedown by City, County, State or Federal Police. The rule of law needs to apply in every situation.
Harassing people outside of a bank is one of the worst ideas I have ever read for fighting terrorism. If it were not so frightening it would be laughable!
It’s almost as bad as President Bush’s Homeland Security idea. This costs the taxpayers untold of dollars, And for what? So that federal police can be placed in towns to watch borders and other hot spots?
Bullcrap!
The reality of it is that they end up backing up local Police when they make V&T stops. Is this supposed to be the best way to fight terrorism? And these federal police are making at times 35% more than the local police departments pay their officers. This is a supreme waste of tax dollars.
Why not spend those dollars in enhancing local Sheriff and Police departments on a city and countywide basis? Give control back to the local organizations that know the local people and terrain. This is supposed to be a republican ideal, which has been lost on this President, I am sorry to say.
When have big government programs administered from Washington ever worked the way we wanted them to?
Back to your post…
I was stating that if a police officer wants your ID he is going to get it, not saying that we go around looking for reasons to fuck with law abiding citizens. Trust me I have much better things to do.
And this is the most telling of all your comments. I want everyone on the forum to reread these two sentences that you just posted. So, no matter the circumstances if YOU want my Id YOU are going to get it. Do I have that right? Regardless if I have done anything wrong. That ?s the type of statement that wreaks of abuse my friend!
You also stated that you have better things to do. This leaves me to assume that if you didn’t have better things to do you would be “fucking with me.”
These are the type’s of statement’s that make me far more concerned about YOU and the potential harm that YOU can do, than any terrorist. I have never once been harassed by a terrorist. However, YOU just posed such a threat on this board.
Statements like these are not very comforting.
I deal with alot more scrutiny on a daily basis than most of you. It’s a constant defense of actions to the public and administration.
And you should be under plenty of scrutiny. You carry a badge a gun and have the authority at the drop of a hat to take away someone’s freedom, or even take a life. This might not be a big deal to YOU, but to those of us who have the potential to be on the receiving end, it’s a very big deal.
a majority of US(civil servants) take the job to help people, not create ways to scam and kill them.
I do agree with this. However, under certain situations even the most well intended group of law enforcement officers, if unchecked can become abusive and trample innocent citizens rights!
Quite honestly I am far more concerned about state and federal law officers running amuck than I am of terrorism. We cannot allow this terrorism threat to change our way of life in America. When that happens the terrorists have won.
We have good law enforcement as it stands. All we need do now is continue to be vigilant. Allow the system to work as it stands. You know as well as I do that most of the good busts that occur are from tips sent in by ordinary people. This is exactly how the war on terrorism (in this country) will be won, by ordinary people!
I would say without any fear of repercussion that today a couple of wackos with box cutters could not commandeer a jet and run it into their designated target.
Why, because people are wiser now. They are aware of the terrorist threat and will react accordingly. And if something looks suspicious the proper police agency will get a phone call from Mr. John Q. Public. Or, as I have stated the average citizen will act on the spot!
We live in a different world than pre 9-11 to be sure. However, not different enough to hand our freedoms over to ANY police authority for safekeeping. As it has been shown time and again that simply doesn?t work. As police authority unchecked leads to more danger to its citizenry than any outside threat from a terrorist ever could!
“America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.”
Abraham Lincoln
What about if a creepy brown guy with a towel around his head takes pictures of the aforementioned bank and now Police curround it and ask everyone for ID? Does this change your views? Should they have to tell everyone why they are checking IDs?
Granted random stunts just to show “strength” are assinine. But it’d be foolish to not flex a little muscle if there is a good chance the “bad guys” are watching, and going to see we give a couple fucks.
[/quote]
Somehow, methinks that if they were going to bomb the damn building, they wouldn’t send a “creepy brown guy with a towel on his head”. They would probably send someone looking suspiciously like…well, you or me.
C’mon. We may despise terrorists, but they are not fucking retarded.
I’m pretty sure that RANDOM checks of IDs were declared unconstitutional a while back. As for DUI checkpoints, you’ll notice that everybody at the checkpoint is stopped; it’s not random. That’s how they manage that. In addition, driving is not a “right” in any state that I know of, so they’re not violating any rights to check for your license.
I think they would be hard pressed to justify ANY checks of people just walking down the street. You’re not required to carry your ID with you everywhere.
I think the Miami tactics will be challenged and they’ll have to refine them.
I agree that, as described, these tactics are a bad idea. “The price of freedom is eternal vigilance” and that includes watching the police force so it doesn’t become a police state, however slowly and subtly.
And what is there in Miami worth attacking as compared to New York or DC?
[quote]LBRTRN wrote:
The Left […] doesn’t hesitate to confiscate the latter [private property] for the “greater” good.[/quote]
You’re spending too much time around Republicans, man. You’re starting to learn the art of distorting liberal philosophy by using carefully chosen words and punctuation to make us look EViL… to see if they’ll pass.
Here’s the definition of confiscation:
"
Seizure by the public treasure as forfeited, i.e., lost or lost the right to by some error, offense, or crime.
"
So, tell me, do libertarians advocate allowing criminals to keep the product of their robberies?
Didn’t think so. So can you blame us for not advocating it either?
(and before somebody puts words in my mouth, NO I do not think all rich people are criminals).
Also, why the word greater in double quotes? Do you realize that it is trivial to prove (both theoretically and by statistical analysis) that wealth redistribution maximizes total wealth? So why put the “greater” in double quotes, if it is to be taken literally (since it does correspond to reality)?
And if you think I’m being anal: How would you react if I said that the Right-Wing is essentially about glorifying greed and greedy self-interest?
I have been reading this thread with interest. Having lived outside North America for the last 15 years I have noticed the erosion of freedoms and the establishment of fascist-like organizations like the Department of Homeland security in the United States.
Funnily enough, here where I live now in Ukraine, being an ex soviet country we are seeing a rebirth of freedoms and personal liberties. Most expats living here now enjoy the absense of overkill government control that you seem to be experiencing in America.
Here Americans used to be considered wild and crazy…cowboys with a smoking gun and a sly grin on their face. Alas we now look at the new United States and shake our heads in dismay…you don’t realize what you are giving up in order to “feel safe”.
What ever happened to “live free or die”.
I also wish to express my wholehearted agreement with Zeb’s post. He really hit the nail on the head.
I wonder if the Roman Empire had similar problems at the beggining of the end?
The big problem facing the U.S. is that power and information are devolving. It’s now possible for someone with a handheld weapon, for example, to bring down an airliner. As power devolves, the leading power/country in the world has to become more and more desperate to keep its power and order in the world. It begins to resort to things we don’t like or want.
Now the problem is that Americans are used to having a particular standard of living. If some disgruntled group threatens to disrupt the processes required to keep that standard of living (like raising the price of oil), they will be dealt with. (This is the real reason Saddam had to go --destabilizing the Middle East. Not a smart move.)
Someone, somewhere, is working on this problem. Either the world collapses into chaos, or someone figures out how to control disgruntled persons/groups. I suspect that nanotechnology will simply be used to lobotomize entire populations. It may even be decided to dispense with the bulk of the world’s population. With nanotech providing everything and able to alter human life as we know it, labor and troublesome individuals/groups would be quite dispensible.
Thw world 50 or 100 years from now will be radically different from what we have now.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The big problem facing the U.S. is that power and information are devolving. It’s now possible for someone with a handheld weapon, for example, to bring down an airliner. As power devolves, the leading power/country in the world has to become more and more desperate to keep its power and order in the world. It begins to resort to things we don’t like or want.
Now the problem is that Americans are used to having a particular standard of living. If some disgruntled group threatens to disrupt the processes required to keep that standard of living (like raising the price of oil), they will be dealt with. (This is the real reason Saddam had to go --destabilizing the Middle East. Not a smart move.)
Someone, somewhere, is working on this problem. Either the world collapses into chaos, or someone figures out how to control disgruntled persons/groups. I suspect that nanotechnology will simply be used to lobotomize entire populations. It may even be decided to dispense with the bulk of the world’s population. With nanotech providing everything and able to alter human life as we know it, labor and troublesome individuals/groups would be quite dispensible.
Thw world 50 or 100 years from now will be radically different from what we have now.[/quote]
For once, I agree with you. But then what is the solution? For if people like LBTRN, myself, Zeb, and you, and see eye to eye on this particular issue, then there is a problem!
In my eyes, voting either Democrat or Republican is a waste, as they are both powerful political machines, controlled by the corporations they receive donations from.
So what is the solution for the proletariat to take back his rights?
You know what I’m thinking, I’m sure. But that is sometime off before that can be realized. What are your solutions?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The big problem facing the U.S. is that power and information are devolving. It’s now possible for someone with a handheld weapon, for example, to bring down an airliner. As power devolves, the leading power/country in the world has to become more and more desperate to keep its power and order in the world. It begins to resort to things we don’t like or want.
Now the problem is that Americans are used to having a particular standard of living. If some disgruntled group threatens to disrupt the processes required to keep that standard of living (like raising the price of oil), they will be dealt with. (This is the real reason Saddam had to go --destabilizing the Middle East. Not a smart move.)
Someone, somewhere, is working on this problem. Either the world collapses into chaos, or someone figures out how to control disgruntled persons/groups. I suspect that nanotechnology will simply be used to lobotomize entire populations. It may even be decided to dispense with the bulk of the world’s population. With nanotech providing everything and able to alter human life as we know it, labor and troublesome individuals/groups would be quite dispensible.
Thw world 50 or 100 years from now will be radically different from what we have now.
For once, I agree with you. But then what is the solution? For if people like LBTRN, myself, Zeb, and you, and see eye to eye on this particular issue, then there is a problem!
In my eyes, voting either Democrat or Republican is a waste, as they are both powerful political machines, controlled by the corporations they receive donations from.
So what is the solution for the proletariat to take back his rights?
You know what I’m thinking, I’m sure. But that is sometime off before that can be realized. What are your solutions?[/quote]
It is possible that no solution to this problem exists, unless all scientific research was banned. You’d then hope that no underground lab suddenly springs up and lobos everyone (I know that sounds like sci-fi but just google nanotechnolgy).
I don’t have a solution. This, of course, does not mean that one does not exist. I however would be inclined to think that a very minimalist government relying on voluntary support would be less inclined to fund such research. But then you have the ‘underground lab’ problem again.
This is like nuclear weapons – once the genie is out of the bottle, you’re in trouble.
I think it likely we shall destroy ourselves or we will all be ‘conditioned’ by nanotechnology. The world of Huxley’s Brave New World seems the most likely outcome, unless we destroy ourselves.
Back to the first post…
This is a great way to get in the face of the law abiding public and remind them how scared they need to be of terrorism.