[quote]futuredave wrote:
For a change, I absolutely 100% agree with Zeb!
What’s the world coming to?
[/quote]
I know. I’m agreeing with him too! It’s the end times for sure!
[quote]futuredave wrote:
For a change, I absolutely 100% agree with Zeb!
What’s the world coming to?
[/quote]
I know. I’m agreeing with him too! It’s the end times for sure!
Wow, if Zeb doesn’t like it…
But seriously, even if you go beyond the civil liberties aspect of this, i.e., let’s assume this is “okay,” and look totally at the practical aspects of this, what exactly does this do to thwart terrorism? Will asking for IDs stop a terrorist? Don’t you think that an organized terrorist group like Al Qaeda would be smart enough to have really well-made fake IDs on hand for their operatives?
Remember when the nice girl at the airline ticket counter had to ask you if you were carrying a bag for someone you didn’t know? “Yeah, this Arab lookin’ fella with ‘Death to the U.S.’ tattooed on his forehead asked me to carry this package for him and it seems to be ticking.”
This is a show that serves no purpose, that’s all it is, and it’s being funded by tax dollars. More of our money being flushed down the toilet so bureaucrats can look good in front of the ill-informed voting public by giving them a false sense of security that they are actually doing something to combat terrorism.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
Boo Hoo, give me a break. If you have nothing to hide don’t worry. [/quote]
If it is that simple, then why do you need a warrant to search a vehicle without permission? I could have nothing at all in my car and maybe I just want to enforce my freedoms by not allowing you to toss my shit on the curb as you search it for no reason. If I have nothing to hide, so far in thos country, I still have the right to refuse a search of my property. Why would anyone be so foolish as to toss that right away?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Eventually, if enough people are “OK” with actions like this, it will be that much easier for even more of our rights to be taken away. Your kids will see less and less wrong with it considering the attitude was always a part of their life. 100 years down the road, it will too far gone to ever get back all because enough people just didn’t give a shit when it began.[/quote]
Okay, but my point was that some semi-functional retard in Miami is not going to be the cause of American Fascism. That’s Chicken Little bullshit. This is some idiot acting like an idiot… maybe for nefarious greedy reasons, maybe just out of sheer stupidity. This is not Hitler. That’s all I’m saying.
I am not OK with this searching, this is stupid, wasteful, and useless.
Note to self:
Drive around Miami until I find a “random show of force” replete with a ton of police officers. Drive to other side of town and rob bank.
[quote]etaco wrote:
Note to self:
Drive around Miami until I find a “random show of force” replete with a ton of police officers. Drive to other side of town and rob bank.[/quote]
Why not make a terrorist threat yourself and THEN rob a bank at the other side of town?
Might as well do it right…
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Cunnivore wrote:
I didn’t find any part of that article to be particularly frightening or offensive. Which part of the plan concerns you the most?
You didn’t find anything bothersome about this:
"Deputy Police Chief Frank Fernandez said officers might, for example, surround a bank building, check the IDs of everyone going in and out and hand out leaflets about terror threats.
This is an in-your-face type of strategy. It’s letting the terrorists know we are out there," Fernandez said."
This is one step from those same officers (or feds) frisking you as you enter a bank or shopping mall. Would that bother you?
Is that next logical step in “good proactive Police work?”
If any officer ever asks me for an ID they had better have something called “reasonable suspicion.” If not they will be in for a very difficult court battle. AND I might not be complying with that order.
This is bull!
Come on wake up man!
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin
[/quote]
Agreed. The idea of a national ID (like they’re trying to push through here in Britain) worries me, and this Miami crap seems like just another way to waste taxpayer money. Department of Homeland Security, what a waste.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
Putting a large number of police officers on the street to “show force” is a symptom, not a cure.[/quote]
Good call.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Eventually, if enough people are “OK” with actions like this, it will be that much easier for even more of our rights to be taken away. Your kids will see less and less wrong with it considering the attitude was always a part of their life. 100 years down the road, it will too far gone to ever get back all because enough people just didn’t give a shit when it began.
Okay, but my point was that some semi-functional retard in Miami is not going to be the cause of American Fascism. That’s Chicken Little bullshit. This is some idiot acting like an idiot… maybe for nefarious greedy reasons, maybe just out of sheer stupidity. This is not Hitler. That’s all I’m saying.
I am not OK with this searching, this is stupid, wasteful, and useless.[/quote]
I agree that this guy in Miami is not the next Hilter, but by doing this he sets a precident. Eventually, other jurisdictions may follow suit. If, in his political manuevering he’s able to demonstrate that it has, in some way, worked, then the feds might think it’s a good idea. At that point, we’re in real trouble.
That’s not exactly “sky is falling” stuff. It’s only two or three steps.
The current state of fear and apathy in the country is easy picking for those who, even if unintentionally, want to strip our freedoms.
I’m not saying anyone is masterminding some plot to suppress the people, but these things do snowball.
We should fight to leave the power where it belongs, with the people.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
Boo Hoo, give me a break. If you have nothing to hide don’t worry. It’s just like being stopped at a DUI checkpoint. Did you do anything wrong? Nope. Is it illegal to refuse to render your state ID? Yep. If your asked for ID you have to surrender it, as shitty as it sounds you do.
All that cop has to do is say he has a reason to believe you resemble so and so who has a warrant for his arrest. I mean c’mon, you actually feel threatened at a PROACTIVE response to terrorsim as opposed to a REACTIVE?[/quote]
Hey snipe,
You seem to have all the loopholes figured out.
First, “all you need to do is convince IA that he was a threat” to shoot somebody.
Now, “all you need to do is say you have a reason to believe I resemble so and so”, to search them without cause.
So it sounds like “all you need to do” is make up some bullshit story and you can get away with whatever you want. No wonder you love being a cop.
This kind of police thinking is exactly why this is a seriously bad idea.
snipeout wrote:
Boo Hoo, give me a break. If you have nothing to hide don’t worry. It’s just like being stopped at a DUI checkpoint. Did you do anything wrong? Nope. Is it illegal to refuse to render your state ID? Yep. If your asked for ID you have to surrender it, as shitty as it sounds you do.
wow…yeah, because its not like there are cops who are corrupt or anything. What kind of thinking is this? What if the cop doesnt like the way you look or thae way you give him your id? Next thing you know your being searched for drugs or something retarded like that.
Why do i have to surrender my ID? for what? For walking down the street? This thing is a bad idea for a variety of reasons, but mostly because of answers like yours.
I think it is a stupid waste of time and resources but I don’t thing it brings us closer to a police state.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I think it is a stupid waste of time and resources but I don’t thing it brings us closer to a police state.[/quote]
DUI checkpoints are much more of a “police state” kind of action. And if you look into the Supreme Court decision that interpreted them as semi-Constitutional, you’ll see some specious reasoning that explicitly places individual rights beneath a supposed “public welfare.”
[quote]snipeout wrote:
I mean c’mon, you actually feel threatened at a PROACTIVE response to terrorsim as opposed to a REACTIVE?[/quote]
So doing shit at random for no good reason counts as proactive these days? If that’s not a sign of how cowed we’ve become and how low our expectations are, I don’t know what is.
Even if you don’t object to this plan on principle you have to agree that random isn’t exactly the most brilliant plan. Is it too much to ask the police to use quantitative reasoning to develop a specific plan of action with defensible expectations of results?
I can’t be the only person with a job that has specific responsibilities and performance expectations, can I? Is it really that unusual? I’m just trying to imagine how effective I would be at work if I stopped thinking and started acting at random… Something tells me it wouldn’t go over well.
Nick
Why is any one surprised? Create a government that can tax you at will, confiscate your property, give it lots of power, and look what you get.
Didn’t know this was the result of your welfare state, FightinIrish? You voted for it, you enabled it, it is yours. Enjoy.
[quote]AZMojo wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Boo Hoo, give me a break. If you have nothing to hide don’t worry. It’s just like being stopped at a DUI checkpoint. Did you do anything wrong? Nope. Is it illegal to refuse to render your state ID? Yep. If your asked for ID you have to surrender it, as shitty as it sounds you do.
All that cop has to do is say he has a reason to believe you resemble so and so who has a warrant for his arrest. I mean c’mon, you actually feel threatened at a PROACTIVE response to terrorsim as opposed to a REACTIVE?
Hey snipe,
You seem to have all the loopholes figured out.
First, “all you need to do is convince IA that he was a threat” to shoot somebody.
Now, “all you need to do is say you have a reason to believe I resemble so and so”, to search them without cause.
So it sounds like “all you need to do” is make up some bullshit story and you can get away with whatever you want. No wonder you love being a cop.
This kind of police thinking is exactly why this is a seriously bad idea.[/quote]
There you go reading into words, if they are spoon fed to you you don’t understand. If I can articulate the threat to myself and others I have no reason to worry about an investigation. Secondly, I was stating that if a police officer wants your ID he is going to get it, not saying that we go around looking for reasons to fuck with law abiding citizens. Trust me I have much better things to do. AZ, what do you do for as living out of curiosity. I never said my job was hard, but I deal with alot more scrutiny on a daily basis than most of you. It’s a constant defense of actions to the public and administration. I’m not asking for sympathy, if I wanted to do something else I would have stayed in school for accounting. Whether you people believe it or not, a majority of US(civil servants) take the job to help people, not create ways to scam and kill them.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
There you go reading into words, if they are spoon fed to you you don’t understand. If I can articulate the threat to myself and others I have no reason to worry about an investigation. Secondly,[/quote]
That is not the point!
Honest law abiding citizens should not be subject to a shakedown by City, County, State or Federal Police. The rule of law needs to apply in every situation.
Harassing people outside of a bank is one of the worst ideas I have ever read for fighting terrorism. If it were not so frightening it would be laughable!
It’s almost as bad as President Bush’s Homeland Security idea. This costs the taxpayers untold of dollars, And for what? So that federal police can be placed in towns to watch borders and other hot spots?
Bullcrap!
The reality of it is that they end up backing up local Police when they make V&T stops. Is this supposed to be the best way to fight terrorism? And these federal police are making at times 35% more than the local police departments pay their officers. This is a supreme waste of tax dollars.
Why not spend those dollars in enhancing local Sheriff and Police departments on a city and countywide basis? Give control back to the local organizations that know the local people and terrain. This is supposed to be a republican ideal, which has been lost on this President, I am sorry to say.
When have big government programs administered from Washington ever worked the way we wanted them to?
Back to your post…
And this is the most telling of all your comments. I want everyone on the forum to reread these two sentences that you just posted. So, no matter the circumstances if YOU want my Id YOU are going to get it. Do I have that right? Regardless if I have done anything wrong. That ?s the type of statement that wreaks of abuse my friend!
You also stated that you have better things to do. This leaves me to assume that if you didn’t have better things to do you would be “fucking with me.”
These are the type’s of statement’s that make me far more concerned about YOU and the potential harm that YOU can do, than any terrorist. I have never once been harassed by a terrorist. However, YOU just posed such a threat on this board.
Statements like these are not very comforting.
And you should be under plenty of scrutiny. You carry a badge a gun and have the authority at the drop of a hat to take away someone’s freedom, or even take a life. This might not be a big deal to YOU, but to those of us who have the potential to be on the receiving end, it’s a very big deal.
[quote] a majority of US(civil servants) take the job to help people, not create ways to scam and kill them.
[/quote]
I do agree with this. However, under certain situations even the most well intended group of law enforcement officers, if unchecked can become abusive and trample innocent citizens rights!
Quite honestly I am far more concerned about state and federal law officers running amuck than I am of terrorism. We cannot allow this terrorism threat to change our way of life in America. When that happens the terrorists have won.
We have good law enforcement as it stands. All we need do now is continue to be vigilant. Allow the system to work as it stands. You know as well as I do that most of the good busts that occur are from tips sent in by ordinary people. This is exactly how the war on terrorism (in this country) will be won, by ordinary people!
I would say without any fear of repercussion that today a couple of wackos with box cutters could not commandeer a jet and run it into their designated target.
Why, because people are wiser now. They are aware of the terrorist threat and will react accordingly. And if something looks suspicious the proper police agency will get a phone call from Mr. John Q. Public. Or, as I have stated the average citizen will act on the spot!
We live in a different world than pre 9-11 to be sure. However, not different enough to hand our freedoms over to ANY police authority for safekeeping. As it has been shown time and again that simply doesn?t work. As police authority unchecked leads to more danger to its citizenry than any outside threat from a terrorist ever could!
“America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.”
Abraham Lincoln
[quote]snipeout wrote:
AZMojo wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Boo Hoo, give me a break. If you have nothing to hide don’t worry. It’s just like being stopped at a DUI checkpoint. Did you do anything wrong? Nope. Is it illegal to refuse to render your state ID? Yep. If your asked for ID you have to surrender it, as shitty as it sounds you do.
All that cop has to do is say he has a reason to believe you resemble so and so who has a warrant for his arrest. I mean c’mon, you actually feel threatened at a PROACTIVE response to terrorsim as opposed to a REACTIVE?
Hey snipe,
You seem to have all the loopholes figured out.
First, “all you need to do is convince IA that he was a threat” to shoot somebody.
Now, “all you need to do is say you have a reason to believe I resemble so and so”, to search them without cause.
So it sounds like “all you need to do” is make up some bullshit story and you can get away with whatever you want. No wonder you love being a cop.
This kind of police thinking is exactly why this is a seriously bad idea.
There you go reading into words, if they are spoon fed to you you don’t understand. If I can articulate the threat to myself and others I have no reason to worry about an investigation…
…I’m not asking for sympathy, if I wanted to do something else I would have stayed in school for accounting. Whether you people believe it or not, a majority of US(civil servants) take the job to help people, not create ways to scam and kill them.
[/quote]
I understand the words just fine. What I also understand is the subtext. You spend a lot of time talking about convincing, articulating, and justifying probable cause. What you don’t spend time talking about is actually having probable cause.
I’m sure many police officers do enter the field so they can help. Many also enter the field because of the power it gives them. Some even enter it because it’s a kick-ass job where they give you a gun. You make it sound like everyone who wears a badge is fucking Andy Griffith. Just like any profession, there’s good and bad representatives. This difference is, accountants don’t get guns. The more power you get, the more there is to abuse.
Like you said, if a cop wants your ID, he’s gonna get it. No matter what the reason.
I?m developing a Zeb-crush right now…
All that libertarian talk excites me!
[quote]orion wrote:
I?m developing a Zeb-crush right now…
All that libertarian talk excites me![/quote]
Yeah, that last post of his pretty much summed up how I feel.