If everyone would just stop farting we could reduce the greenhouse gas and fix global warming!
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
grew7 wrote:
Global warming? Bring it on. We’ll just grow oranges in Alaska.
What will they grow in Florida then? In fact, except for a giant Depends wearing playpen, what the hell good will Florida be?[/quote]
Underwater. The only thing they will grow is Kelp.
[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
It’s all going to be over within the next hundred years anyways.
God’s coming…
Now you’re just trolling. GO THE FUCK AWAY
I can say whatever I want, when I want, and how I want. There is nothing you can do about it. FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
Try to stick to saying things that you would actually say in person. I’ve never had someone ever talk the way you do over the internet to my face.
My man, there is nothing I say to anyone that I would not say to their face. I’m not a nice guy.
I don’t appreciate your religious interludes when I’m trying to get a serious discussion about global warming, especially among those who know alot about the sciences (a weak point of mine).
So once again. Fuck off.
I don’t believe you. You have no idea who I am. It’s a different story when you see the person.
You wouldn’t walk up to an ultimate fighter champion and tell him to fuck off.
You wouldn’t walk up to a 6’3, 280 pound linebacker and tell him to fuck off.
You don’t know me.
[/quote]
Internet. Serious business.
By the way, my penis is the biggest one here.
No, mine is! You’re stupid. I’m smart.
[quote]m_mackenz wrote:
But if we give the plants an unlimited supply of co2 they will rise up against us and TAKE OVER THE WORLD!! I don’t know about you, but I don’t want a 30 foot tulip telling me what to do.
Sarcasm aside, I will re-word my question. Is there any positive to EXCESSIVE greenhouse gas procution?
And I know what you will ask next. How do you define ‘EXCESSIVE’? And the answer is: I can’t. Should we aim to return to the greenhouse gas production level of a pre-industrial society? Obviously that is impossible. But should we do nothing? I think that would be very irresponsible. Possibly damning future generations for the comfort of our own.[/quote]
There are so many ifs that it’s almost impossible to decide on a course of action.
I find in debates about global warming the history of the earth’s climate is almost never taken into account. At the moment we are sitting in the warmest, most stable period of weather the earth has had in the past million years. The past 8 200 years have been pretty good to us. Unfortunately, this is the exception, not the status quo. Historically the earth’s climate has fluctuated between about 100 000 years of ice age punctuated by warm spells of roughly 10 000 years.
So we have to ask, will global warming destabilize the current period of temperate weather and send us into another ice age? (possibly) Will we be sent into an ice age anyway? (almost certainly) Will global warming be large enough to offset some of the cooling if another ice age begins?
One thing I am certain of is that the Kyoto protocol is pretty much useless, especially without Russia and the US on board. The best thing I can think of to avoid disastrous warming (which could in turn cause disastrous cooling, which will probably happen anyway…), is to shift our energy economy to renewables such as solar, wind, and hydrogen cell energy, which won’t even be a realistic solution for a good 20 years.
As you can see the issue is incredibly complex, and that’s not even getting into the economics of it. Like would money be better spent investing in hydrogen technology or losing 2% of the GDP by implementing Kyoto? (I think investing in hydrogen technology)
Anyways, that’s about all I have to say, I’ll look around for a chart of the earth’s climatic history and post it later.
[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
No, mine is! You’re stupid. I’m smart.[/quote]
Now Now, sir! It is through enlightened civil discourse that I shall now correct you. Apparently you have it backwards. I’m stupid and You’re smart! Shit ! Hold on a minute!
What the fuck just happened?
[quote]grew7 wrote:
By the way, my penis is the biggest one here.[/quote]
Yes, but is it circumcised?
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
grew7 wrote:
Global warming? Bring it on. We’ll just grow oranges in Alaska.
What will they grow in Florida then? ?[/quote]
Melanomas.
[quote]slim tim wrote:
grew7 wrote:
By the way, my penis is the biggest one here.
Yes, but is it circumcised?
[/quote]
Ha ha ha ha!!!
I am really glad to see that many people here are smart enough to realise the many sides to this debate, and not just jump on a bandwagon either way.
The fact of the matter is nobody really knows what will happen or what is happening.
The greatest minds cannot model chaotic systems such as financial markets, let alone weather / climate. They have enough trouble predicting the weather for tomorrow let alone in 10 years, or 100 years.
The greatest arrogance is that mankind likes to think that their puny activities are having much influence on the natural world. This arrogance is born of fear at the realisation that we are completely at the mercy of the natural world and its whims.
Decades ago, before the media picked up on the global warming thread, scientists such as myself were talking over some data that suggested warming was occuring and the general thinking was “uh oh, this is going to cause a bit of a media stir for a couple of years” - but it’s still going on.
Don’t get me wrong I am very, VERY anti-pollution and believe we should embrace all forms of free energy, new technology, recycling (or better yet, avoiding throwaway packaging etc…) and build things to last.
But not for the reasons that we are destroying the planet. We simply are not that powerful. The planet is a living dynamic that is part of a dynamic solar system that is so much more powerful than any pathetic thing we can do. There are so many feedback mechanisms, so many organisms such as ocean algae just waiting to pounce on any increase in temperature to thrive and decrease the temperature. This world is an amazingly stable, poetic ballet of interdependance of which we are a tiny tiny influence.
Ants have more influence on the world than humans.
I like the article talking about the sun being hotter than it has for 1,000 years. People might be interested to know that 1,000 years ago the sun was much hotter, the WORLD was MUCH hotter than today, that was the time of the vikings, when people settled the far north and basically the whole northern world was thriving with great crop yields etc… and so forth.
This is a good read on that topic
www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/lia/
egads, the internet is amazing. In searching for the above I found a dozen articles repeating what I just posted. No point in going on and on about it.
Personally I don’t mind people and countries worrying about global warming if it spurs them on to new technologies to reduce pollution. 100% of the electricity in my house is from renewable sources - for every dollar I spend on electricity, the money goes to a company that must push that much electricity into the grid from wind and solar power. They use their profits to expand research and development of wind / solar power.
I’m also a big fan of Iceland, a place where they are using geothermal energy to seperate water into hydrogen fuel, which can be used in cars, I suspect their plan is to export it. What a great idea. Free energy for all!
So I’d like to see pollution reduced dramatically. But the real threats to humanity are things like volcanoes, earthquakes, asteroids. 50,000 years ago a volcano covered the entire Indian subcontinent with 6 metres of ash and killed every living thing and plunged the world into winter. This shit happens. If this happens in our lifetime it will screw us royally.
Bring on the warming, let’s finish this little ice age once and for all.
[quote]Magarhe wrote:
I am really glad to see that many people here are smart enough to realise the many sides to this debate, and not just jump on a bandwagon either way.
The fact of the matter is nobody really knows what will happen or what is happening.
The greatest minds cannot model chaotic systems such as financial markets, let alone weather / climate. They have enough trouble predicting the weather for tomorrow let alone in 10 years, or 100 years.
The greatest arrogance is that mankind likes to think that their puny activities are having much influence on the natural world. This arrogance is born of fear at the realisation that we are completely at the mercy of the natural world and its whims.
Decades ago, before the media picked up on the global warming thread, scientists such as myself were talking over some data that suggested warming was occuring and the general thinking was “uh oh, this is going to cause a bit of a media stir for a couple of years” - but it’s still going on.
Don’t get me wrong I am very, VERY anti-pollution and believe we should embrace all forms of free energy, new technology, recycling (or better yet, avoiding throwaway packaging etc…) and build things to last.
But not for the reasons that we are destroying the planet. We simply are not that powerful. The planet is a living dynamic that is part of a dynamic solar system that is so much more powerful than any pathetic thing we can do. There are so many feedback mechanisms, so many organisms such as ocean algae just waiting to pounce on any increase in temperature to thrive and decrease the temperature. This world is an amazingly stable, poetic ballet of interdependance of which we are a tiny tiny influence.
Ants have more influence on the world than humans.
I like the article talking about the sun being hotter than it has for 1,000 years. People might be interested to know that 1,000 years ago the sun was much hotter, the WORLD was MUCH hotter than today, that was the time of the vikings, when people settled the far north and basically the whole northern world was thriving with great crop yields etc… and so forth.
This is a good read on that topic
www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/lia/
egads, the internet is amazing. In searching for the above I found a dozen articles repeating what I just posted. No point in going on and on about it.
Personally I don’t mind people and countries worrying about global warming if it spurs them on to new technologies to reduce pollution. 100% of the electricity in my house is from renewable sources - for every dollar I spend on electricity, the money goes to a company that must push that much electricity into the grid from wind and solar power. They use their profits to expand research and development of wind / solar power.
I’m also a big fan of Iceland, a place where they are using geothermal energy to seperate water into hydrogen fuel, which can be used in cars, I suspect their plan is to export it. What a great idea. Free energy for all!
So I’d like to see pollution reduced dramatically. But the real threats to humanity are things like volcanoes, earthquakes, asteroids. 50,000 years ago a volcano covered the entire Indian subcontinent with 6 metres of ash and killed every living thing and plunged the world into winter. This shit happens. If this happens in our lifetime it will screw us royally.
Bring on the warming, let’s finish this little ice age once and for all. [/quote]
I completely agree with you about man being arrogant and thinking we can actually change the earths climate by our puny actions.
Great post!
The earth is warming itself up, we got nothing to do with it, we’ll just adapt.
You have absolutely no basis for this except that you want it to be true. This is the great “get out of jail free card” for polution and economy.
Whether or not natural processes will compensate for our excesses is not really known. This is the flip side to saying that the ins and outs of global warming are not known.
Prudence would dictate that we don’t ignore the chance that we are going to have an effect… just because it would be nice if we had no effect.
[quote]vroom wrote:
The greatest arrogance is that mankind likes to think that their puny activities are having much influence on the natural world. This arrogance is born of fear at the realisation that we are completely at the mercy of the natural world and its whims.
You have absolutely no basis for this except that you want it to be true. This is the great “get out of jail free card” for polution and economy.
Whether or not natural processes will compensate for our excesses is not really known. This is the flip side to saying that the ins and outs of global warming are not known.
Prudence would dictate that we don’t ignore the chance that we are going to have an effect… just because it would be nice if we had no effect.[/quote]
Even if the earth can correct any damage we could do, who wants to live in a shit hole? I mean, even if the earth can stand the pollution and trash, etc…, can we? Would we want to? We have to be responsible for our own sakes, not the earth.
[quote]vroom wrote:
The greatest arrogance is that mankind likes to think that their puny activities are having much influence on the natural world. This arrogance is born of fear at the realisation that we are completely at the mercy of the natural world and its whims.
You have absolutely no basis for this except that you want it to be true. This is the great “get out of jail free card” for polution and economy.
Whether or not natural processes will compensate for our excesses is not really known. This is the flip side to saying that the ins and outs of global warming are not known.
Prudence would dictate that we don’t ignore the chance that we are going to have an effect… just because it would be nice if we had no effect.[/quote]
Granted
But then the argument of global warming becomes:
Should be do what’s right, just because it is right. Not because of any real or imagined threat to our world or climate. And that, I would agree with. Not totally green mind you, but there should be rules and regulations wrt to pollutants discharged into our air and water.
[quote]vroom wrote:
The greatest arrogance is that mankind likes to think that their puny activities are having much influence on the natural world. This arrogance is born of fear at the realisation that we are completely at the mercy of the natural world and its whims.
You have absolutely no basis for this except that you want it to be true. This is the great “get out of jail free card” for polution and economy.
Whether or not natural processes will compensate for our excesses is not really known. This is the flip side to saying that the ins and outs of global warming are not known.
Prudence would dictate that we don’t ignore the chance that we are going to have an effect… just because it would be nice if we had no effect.[/quote]
vroom don’t get me wrong, I am COMPLETELY for cleaning things up, reducing pollution etc… and so forth. And I don’t ignore the fact that what we do can have an effect on the environment humans have to live in, and also many species which suffer because of what we do.
nature has regulatory systems to keep things stable on earth - otherwise we would all be dead. One of those systems might mean that over 1,000 years human activity / pollution wipes out all human activity and therefore brings the world back to stable. I never said it was fair and nice and was looking after us allowing us to run rampant. I don’t expect that to happen, by the way.
I don’t mind that people are scared by “global warming” and take action to reduce pollution and pursue alternatives.
But I think it would be smarter if people reduced pollution because it is just ridiculous, and pursued technology because it makes things better.
I am not a “rape an pillage” economist who thinks the best way is to take the quick buck at the expense of the environment. I am a “advancing technology” economist who believes that the way to greater wealth for all people is to develop technology that improves things.
As an example, I believe things should be built to last. If I buy a washing machine I want it to last 100 years. I don’t want it built so that it deliberately wears out in 5-10 years and causes another purchase.
As I said in my other post, all my electricity comes from wind and solar, and every cent I spend on it goes to advancing the use of those technologies. The company I buy electricity from is rolling out green energy across the country.
The “science” behind “global warming” as a result of human behaviour, however, is a total crock. The world is getting back to the temperatures it was before. In the distant past it has been FAR FAR hotter than it is today. And FAR FAR colder, at times. But regardless of the evidence showing it is not pollution causing it, people will still scream that it IS pollution, and no matter what measures are taken - including completely abandoning all “greenhouse gas” producing technologies - the world will continue to get warmer and people will cry foul and blame mankind. And different scientists will argue.
And people will get offended if they hear a different point of view. And ignore the science, not read the journals, and stay on the greenhouse bandwagon. WHICH SUITS ME, if it means they help push for the actions I want, which is less pollution and better technology. I know powerful environmental lobbyists, and they are as keen as beans, I never argue against global warming with them, because as long as they are fighting for reducing pollution and advancing better technology, I am real happy.
But I would prefer if people thought “hey, we shouldn’t pollute the world, it is wrong” rather than “gee we shouldn’t pollute, I am scared that it might have some consequences to world temperature, I don’t think we can get away with it”. As if the fact that polluting isn’t bad enough, there has to be some kind of fear of consequences beyond that.