[quote]pat wrote:
It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.
[/quote]
prove it
I usually stay out of these, but I have to side with Pat on this one. It is, in fact, spelled out for us in detail.
Still, one could ask; What is the basis for morality, the principles at the very core of it? After all, God doesn’t make up rules without reason.
Is it love vs. hate? Generosity vs. selfishness? Indifference vs. passion? All of the above?
If it weren’t for God telling us, would we be capable of determining morality for ourselves?
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I usually stay out of these, but I have to side with Pat on this one. It is, in fact, spelled out for us in detail.
Still, one could ask; What is the basis for morality, the principles at the very core of it? After all, God doesn’t make up rules without reason.
Is it love vs. hate? Generosity vs. selfishness? Indifference vs. passion? All of the above?
If it weren’t for God telling us, would we be capable of determining morality for ourselves?[/quote]
the mere definition of the word Moral is debatable IMO
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.
[/quote]
prove it
[/quote]
Simple, that which is evil is evil despite whether one thinks it is or not. For instance, is it ever moral to rape a child?
When an there is an act that causes grievous harm from a sentient being to or on another sentient being, that act is inherently evil. Even if society at large condones the evil action, the action is still evil. I choose to focus on the evil aspect because it’s easier to agree on examples.
What morality is, is inexpressible in language but actions demonstrate various aspects of morality.
Relative morality, which is what you are expressing breaks down in reality. Something being acceptable to one or more person does not define that act as moral. Like in the slavery example, it was always wrong and always immoral, but at certain points in history it was accepted. That didn’t do much for the slaves, they still suffered the evils of slavery. It’s wrong to enslave another, it’s wrong to denigrate and devalue a person. But they were and it was accepted. When people pointed out the truth, they were scoffed at, then they were opposed violently, then slavery being evil was accepted as always being self evident.
Because this fact was true outside the minds of people, it’s proof that this moral tenant and therefore morality exists independently of the human mind.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I usually stay out of these, but I have to side with Pat on this one. It is, in fact, spelled out for us in detail.
Still, one could ask; What is the basis for morality, the principles at the very core of it? After all, God doesn’t make up rules without reason.
Is it love vs. hate? Generosity vs. selfishness? Indifference vs. passion? All of the above?
If it weren’t for God telling us, would we be capable of determining morality for ourselves?[/quote]
the mere definition of the word Moral is debatable IMO
[/quote]
Anything is debatable, that is irrelevant. There is right and there is wrong. If you choose to be on the wrong side of a debate, the truth will eventually prevail…
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I usually stay out of these, but I have to side with Pat on this one. It is, in fact, spelled out for us in detail.
Still, one could ask; What is the basis for morality, the principles at the very core of it? After all, God doesn’t make up rules without reason.
Is it love vs. hate? Generosity vs. selfishness? Indifference vs. passion? All of the above?
If it weren’t for God telling us, would we be capable of determining morality for ourselves?[/quote]
the mere definition of the word Moral is debatable IMO
[/quote]
How so?
Just to make sure we’re on the same page, here; We are talking about the concept of right and wrong as it pertains to human behavior, right?
Or are you really debating the concept of ‘right’?
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I usually stay out of these, but I have to side with Pat on this one. It is, in fact, spelled out for us in detail.
Still, one could ask; What is the basis for morality, the principles at the very core of it? After all, God doesn’t make up rules without reason.
Is it love vs. hate? Generosity vs. selfishness? Indifference vs. passion? All of the above?
If it weren’t for God telling us, would we be capable of determining morality for ourselves?[/quote]
the mere definition of the word Moral is debatable IMO
[/quote]
How so?
Just to make sure we’re on the same page, here; We are talking about the concept of right and wrong as it pertains to human behavior, right?
Or are you really debating the concept of ‘right’?
[/quote]
Are morals stories or the summation of a story or are they the concept of right and wrong?
I have my concept of right and wrong and I Govern my life accordingly. I should have no right to thrust my concepts on you nor should any one have that right to thrust their concepts of right and wrong on me (unless I am harming some one else)
I think it all boils down to right and wrong. The purpose of the story, or the moral of it, is to convey a particular concept of right or wrong. What my questions were focused on was; What differentiates the two? Especially when we get down to the sticky issues; abortion, gay marriage, etc…
My take on abortion; Is there any love, generosity, or compassion in an abortion? No, most definitely not. As such, I cannot define abortion as ‘good’. Hate? Selfishness? Indifference? Definitely, especially indifference. Therefore, even without a direct statement from God, I absolutely define abortion as evil.
BUT, I also do not believe in pushing my opinions on others, and legal matters are not my realm, so I am concretely undecided as to whether it should be illegal or not.
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
marijuana [is] having a devastating effect on some kid’s lives…the effects will last a life time
[/quote]
fixed[/quote]
What if speeding violations resulted in punishments that lasted a lifetime and affected your ability to get a degree and a job? Would you say that speeding kept you out of college or the traffic laws? Does the punishment fit the crime? Do you think it’s important for the punishment to fit the crime? At what point does an overly punitive law become more responsible than the crime itself?
I’m a big advocate for individual responsibility so who knows maybe I agree with what you’re saying. I can’t help but feel like this though:
“Why shouldn’t you steal from someone?” “Because it is wrong to just take what someone else worked for”
“Why shouldn’t you drive drunk?” “Because you’ll probably crash and kill or injure yourself or others”
“Why shouldn’t you smoke pot?” “Because it’s illegal and you’ll get in huge trouble for it with the cops.”[/quote]
What lanchefan1 said.
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I think it all boils down to right and wrong. The purpose of the story, or the moral of it, is to convey a particular concept of right or wrong. What my questions were focused on was; What differentiates the two? Especially when we get down to the sticky issues; abortion, gay marriage, etc…
My take on abortion; Is there any love, generosity, or compassion in an abortion? No, most definitely not. As such, I cannot define abortion as ‘good’. Hate? Selfishness? Indifference? Definitely, especially indifference. Therefore, even without a direct statement from God, I absolutely define abortion as evil.
BUT, I also do not believe in pushing my opinions on others, and legal matters are not my realm, so I am concretely undecided as to whether it should be illegal or not. [/quote]
from what you have said our views are very similar . As for abortion I have to say until the fetus can support it;s own life I have to leave the decision of whether it has the opportunity of a good life to it’s mother. I do know there are some bad mothers out there but for the most part I believe most mothers have their children’s best interest at heart.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Pittbull wrote:
there are many young people that both smoke pot and are gay that will have no voice (right or wrong)
[/quote]
One would swear reading pitski’s posts that he is a pure troll. But…but…he’s not. He is in fact a sincere individual, just very dumb.[/quote]
I felt a little twinge to play devil’s advocate when I read this. Pittbull said literally “there are people too young to vote who smoke weed and are gay”. Then he qualified this by saying “right or wrong”, meaning he wasn’t claiming to take any stance on their ability to vote one way or the other.
Not sure if ZEB misread this or not, and I’m not trying to support or refute any of Pitt’s positions either, but all he did was state a fact. Logically you can’t call someone dumb for stating a fact. If you want to call him dumb, you should have quoted a different post, or just not quoted a post at all. Doing this you are actually SUPPORTING his argument that you say things that aren’t based in reality, but only in your own perceived authority.[/quote]
You have not been around long enough and put up with Pittbull’s shear stupidity to comment on whether I am correct in calling him dumb. Stick around and keep reading. I would guess that within a few months you’ll find this person’s comments incredibly stupid.
But…very highly entertaining.
Sort of like watching the retard on the bus. You’d love to help him but he just doesn’t have the capacity. So, you sit back and you just can’t help but laugh at some of his antics. [/quote]
See Zeb , the young man was inquiring on what in the statement "there are many young people that both smoke pot and are gay that will have no voice (right or wrong) " is so dumb ? You have failed to answer the question
[/quote]
That is only a question in your mind Pitt. The rest of us understand full well that kids should have no say on such laws. And when you make such statements you sound like an idiot.
who is simply drooling all over the message board.
Which goes back to what I’ve been saying about your participation here in PWI…pure entertainment.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
If what you stated was fact than morals would never change
[/quote]
Maybe they never change but people are just always going to be wrong, but who is going to admit that while defending a claim.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
As for abortion I have to say until the fetus can support it;s own life I have to leave the decision of whether it has the opportunity of a good life to it’s mother. I do know there are some bad mothers out there but for the most part I believe most mothers have their children’s best interest at heart.
[/quote]
And father, if he is in the picture. If, by some stretch of the wildest imagination, my wife had wanted an abortion, I would have done everything humanly possible to get my child into this world so that I could provide her with the best life possible. She could have gone her own way or whatever, but from the moment of conception, that was my child and I would give my life to defend any of them.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Pittbull wrote:
there are many young people that both smoke pot and are gay that will have no voice (right or wrong)
[/quote]
One would swear reading pitski’s posts that he is a pure troll. But…but…he’s not. He is in fact a sincere individual, just very dumb.[/quote]
I felt a little twinge to play devil’s advocate when I read this. Pittbull said literally “there are people too young to vote who smoke weed and are gay”. Then he qualified this by saying “right or wrong”, meaning he wasn’t claiming to take any stance on their ability to vote one way or the other.
Not sure if ZEB misread this or not, and I’m not trying to support or refute any of Pitt’s positions either, but all he did was state a fact. Logically you can’t call someone dumb for stating a fact. If you want to call him dumb, you should have quoted a different post, or just not quoted a post at all. Doing this you are actually SUPPORTING his argument that you say things that aren’t based in reality, but only in your own perceived authority.[/quote]
You have not been around long enough and put up with Pittbull’s shear stupidity to comment on whether I am correct in calling him dumb. Stick around and keep reading. I would guess that within a few months you’ll find this person’s comments incredibly stupid.
But…very highly entertaining.
Sort of like watching the retard on the bus. You’d love to help him but he just doesn’t have the capacity. So, you sit back and you just can’t help but laugh at some of his antics. [/quote]
See Zeb , the young man was inquiring on what in the statement "there are many young people that both smoke pot and are gay that will have no voice (right or wrong) " is so dumb ? You have failed to answer the question
[/quote]
That is only a question in your mind Pitt. The rest of us understand full well that kids should have no say on such laws. And when you make such statements you sound like an idiot.
who is simply drooling all over the message board.
Which goes back to what I’ve been saying about your participation here in PWI…pure entertainment.
[/quote]
IMO if it affects your life you should have at least some one advocating for your best interest Also IMO every one should advocate for people that have no say and are being mistreated by the system . The prescribed cure is so much worse that the perceived threat
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
As for abortion I have to say until the fetus can support it;s own life I have to leave the decision of whether it has the opportunity of a good life to it’s mother. I do know there are some bad mothers out there but for the most part I believe most mothers have their children’s best interest at heart.
[/quote]
And father, if he is in the picture. If, by some stretch of the wildest imagination, my wife had wanted an abortion, I would have done everything humanly possible to get my child into this world so that I could provide her with the best life possible. She could have gone her own way or whatever, but from the moment of conception, that was my child and I would give my life to defend any of them.[/quote]I always you knew you had this side down in there.
[quote]JayPierce wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
As for abortion I have to say until the fetus can support it;s own life I have to leave the decision of whether it has the opportunity of a good life to it’s mother. I do know there are some bad mothers out there but for the most part I believe most mothers have their children’s best interest at heart.
[/quote]
And father, if he is in the picture. If, by some stretch of the wildest imagination, my wife had wanted an abortion, I would have done everything humanly possible to get my child into this world so that I could provide her with the best life possible. She could have gone her own way or whatever, but from the moment of conception, that was my child and I would give my life to defend any of them.
[/quote]
that is a very tough call , I would hope you could find a sympathetic Judge . I know I would try. It is funny how this thing Capitalism works . I would bet if you have the money you could force the situation . I could do it now , I think 
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
If what you stated was fact than morals would never change
[/quote]
Maybe they never change but people are just always going to be wrong, but who is going to admit that while defending a claim.[/quote]
IMO morals are not a concrete thing they are a concept that is shaped by modern pressures .
Maybe there could be laws that people have chose to ignore . Like the one that says no horses on the 13th floor of a building .
I am like every one else on this board only stating my opinion
See I have given my nemesis the opportunity to critique me and I will do it for you . Time does not allow me to waste time every day only some life gets too hectic to follow these threads so adios for now
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
See I have given my nemesis the opportunity to critique me and I will do it for you . Time does not allow me to waste time every day only some life gets too hectic to follow these threads so adios for now [/quote]
(Waves to Pitski as he rides away in the short bus)
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I also have one of you as well but I must admit it is not as well founded :)[/quote]
One of me what? A thread?
[quote] I also would love to hear your critique of me ?
[/quote]
I think you are a center/right person in conviction and life style. Hard working, honest, want the government to leave you alone, and couldn’t care less what others are doing as long as it isn’t hurting you or yours. You want them to stop pissing away your money and leave you the hell alone…
But the thought of looking into the conservative narrative seriously frightens you. You find comfort in the lefty narrative painted in the news media, television and hollywood. You don’t like what you see as the social positions of conservatives, and the whole “religion” thing irks you.
You aren’t a progressive, don’t particularly care for progressives, but are frightened by what you perceive would happen under conservative leadership. So you err on the side of the progressives even though I think you are more like the Democrats of my youth, grounded in reality and still American.
And then you come on here and get a kick out of the reaction to your posts, so you ride the progressive horse pretty hard.
How’d I do?