Guys, you have not contributed one ounce of useful dialogue to this thread, which was intended to be a debate on the merits of neo-natal circumcision. It has been hopelessly hijacked into yet another bullshit “Anti US Foreign Policy vs. Team USA! USA!” tirade.
Jussi, although I’ll cut you some slack regarding the grammar as english is clearly your second language, I cannot accept your bullshit arguments. You would have impressed everyone a lot more if you said something like “Hello, I’m Jussi from Europe and out here we don’t routinely circumcise our children. In fact we consider it to be an archaic practice for these reasons…”. Instead, you go off on some flag burning bullshit that only enrages every American who even glances at this thread. My advice: just be quiet.
Dustin, give your head a shake. Can’t you see you were baited? You would have put this guy in his place by simply ignoring him or asking to get the fuck off the thread. Instead, we now have to read through your reams of stereotypical pro-USA rhetoric when all we want to discuss is whether we should get our kids snipped. Don’t get me wrong, I respect your love for your country - seriously, I do- but half of your post sounded like it came from some backwoods hick with a 4th grade education and a gun rack in every room. I’m sure the Canadians, Scandanavians, Australians etc. who are proud to live in peaceful countries with standards of living on par or greater than the US wouldn’t appreciate being labeled “socialist commies”- especially when they are also sending their loved ones to join the Americans in Bush’s “war on terror”. Perhaps you should CC your post to the mothers of the 4 Canadian soliders killed by an overzealous American pilot nicknamed “Psycho” in that forgotten “friendly fire” incident in Afghanistan? (Imagine the shit-storm if the pilot was Canadian and the soldiers American?)
Anyway, end of rant. Lets get back to cutting up dicks. As for porno stars- all the European movies have intact guys!
“You would have put this guy in his place by simply ignoring him or asking to get the fuck off the thread. Instead, we now have to read through your reams of stereotypical pro-Wherever tha fuck you’re from rhetoric when all we want to discuss is whether we should get our kids snipped.” - Practice what you preach - Or get off tha fuckin thread!
You contributed dick to this thread until you responded to me. I responded to what Jussi said and I did talk about circumcision.
If you want to start a seperate thread about the war with Iraq, please do and I'd be more than happy to school you on that topic, otherwise shut the fuck up!
I’m surprised no one responded to Jussi’s first post. Pain isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Surgeries are painful, and they harm you in the short run, but in the long run, they prevent you from further pain and death. Then there is the assertion that the foreskin must be good and useful, otherwise it wouldn’t have developed. Ever hear of wisdom teeth? Mine began to impact my molars at about 16; should my parents have just let me wait till I was older to make my own decisions? Finally, the beauty of the United States is that we have the freedom to choose whether or not to circumcise our children, unlike Finland, where the government has forbidden it. We’re far, far, far from being truly free, but we’re still a hell of a lot better than most European countries. Need I mention conscription, social welfare, and mandatory registration with the state?
When I talked about different countries and cultures, I tried to bring up few important points, and perhaps you could have noticed them, if you had read “between the lines”.
But some of the people here did not want to question their habits and rituals, and took my message very personally. Perhaps it hit the right spot.
Countries are just name for larger societies. Human made borders. I dont care really what the country is, because PEOPLE are the ones that are evil, no matter where they live. People harm each other, not the countries.
Laws in FREE countries are made to protect individual’s freedom. Also the freedom to decide about my own body. I did not know that in Finland the government has forbidden children’s circumcision. But that is GOOD! It has protected MY freedom! If I now want to get circumcised, I have THE FREEDOM to do that TO MYSELF, IF I WANTED! But I have never wanted to get circumcised.
Do you now get my original point!? The main point is:
LET EVERYONE DECIDE ABOUT THEIR OWN BODY! THAT IS FREEDOM!
I have went many times to doctor to cut off moles from my skin, and I see nothing wrong with surgeries. BUT THAT has been MY OWN DECISION.
I mean that it is good that in Finland(where I live) and in many other countries the government HAS FORBIDDEN children’s circumcision.
That law has protected MY FREEDOM, by preventing anyone else to decide whether or not someone can cut off natural parts of my body.
English is my second language, and I havent performed any degree in law or medicine but do you have to have a doctor’s title to use the right to think with your own brain?
The problem with your views is that you espouse a radical individualism in which parents don’t take responsibility for their childrens’ well-being. Children cannot make decisions on their own, they have no concept of what is good for them, so their parents have to make decisions for them. Some people obviously harbor grudges against their parents because of this. Hearing a bunch of “adults” whine about parents circumcising their children makes about as much sense as people complaining about children being spanked or children being forced to go to school. The family is the most important social institution there is; its breakdown only serves to increase the power of the state and destroy true freedom.
Paul-Martin - the problem with your arguement is that inpacted wisdom teeth can become badly infected. Infected teeth can cause many other problems, including decay of other teeth, peridontal disease and problems eating. A forskin does not pose any health risks, as evidenced by the lack of signifigant differences in health problems between countries that circumsize and those that do not.
What Jussi seems to be trying to get across is that performing an extremely painful cosmetic surgery on infants is unnessary and should be left up to the individual to decide - the decision should not be made for him based on 'everybody else does it'
What many of you seem to be missing here is ciscumcision is a COSMETIC surgery, with little to no medical value. It does not reduce the risk of penile cancer (or this cancer would be much more common in European countries). The 'cleanliness' issue is a joke. Women have a lot more skin down there than men do, and we manage to keep things clean, what is the extreme difficulty in cleaning under a flap of skin on the penis?
The whole arguement boils down to one thing: are you willing to put your new born child through agony for a completely unnessary cosmetic procedure? If that answer is yes, then fine, go ahead. By the way, don't say it isn't agony, babies have fully formed nervous systems. If you do't think it hurts, go and cut your penis with a razor. Please post your results here.
HAHA! People here think I make myself look like fool? I give you some facts: Nature has developed the foreskin on to the penis. So, it is A NATURAL bodypart. You Morons brag because you have natural parts of your dick cut off!? That is fucking retarded!
For FACTS
Go look Anatomy of the Penis and Mechanics of Intercourse
and come to reply to me if I’m still fool for fighting for freedom to everyone to decide about their own body! Who is the damn fool?
According to Planned Parenthood, uncircumcised weiners have an increase in health problems related to STD’s than those who are circumcised. Check them out for more information!
FACTS!! If some of you don’t still believe, go look Anatomy of the Penis and Mechanics of Intercourse
The foreskin has twelve known functions.They are:
1.to cover and bond with the synechia so as to permit the development of the mucosal surface of the glans and inner foreskin.
2.to protect the infant’s glans from feces and ammonia in diapers.p>
3.to protect the glans penis from friction and abrasion thoughout life.
4.to keep the glans moisturized and soft with emollient oils.
5.to lubricate the glans.
6.to coat the glans with a waxy protective substance.
7.to provide sufficient skin to cover an erection by unfolding.
8.to provide an aid to masturbation and foreplay.
9.to serve as an aid to penetration.
10.to reduce friction and chafing during intercourse.
11.to serve as erogenous tissue because of its rich supply of erogenous receptors.
12.to contact and stimulate the G-spot of the female partner.
“The most important components of the physical erogenous stimulation of the penis during foreplay and intercourse are the sensations from the foreskin, frenulum/frenar band, and glans. These structures each have their own feeling, and each contributes in its own way to the man’s total experience of lovemaking.”
“…It is impossible to imagine a better mechanical arrangement for non-abrasive stimulation of the male and female genitalia than this slick’ sheath within a sheath.’ Circumcision destroys this one sheath within a sheath…”
There are no problems in my argument. Your assertion that circumcision is merely cosmetic doesn’t stand up to the facts. JayM’s post is just one example. Circumcising prevents a whole host of foreskin-related problems, not least among them infection. Your argument about women keeping things clean is bogus as well. Maybe you’ve never had a urinary tract or yeast infection, but they happen. And so what if the baby experiences pain during the circumcision? They experience pain when they get vaccinated. The benefits of circumcision far outweigh the costs. A little bit of pain that they won’t remember when they’re older eliminated risk of far greater complications when they’re older.
Well, I hope you don’t apply that logic to your wife or girlfriend! There are FAR more instances of breast cancer than penile cancer so should every woman have a double radical mastactomy to prevent the possibility of breast cancer? Yes, of course, there are the odd few cases of problems with foreskin, but if there were diseases that were directly related in signifigant numbers then these diseases would be rampent in Europe where fewer than 10% of men are circumcised. The chance of being that one in a million does not mean mutilation is justified.
And again, I refer to the point I made a while ago - how do you know that you don't remember the trauma? Infants who are raped grow up with severe emotional problems, and they have no idea what happened to them. As they mature, they are withdrawn, hate to be touched and often have phobias realted to sex. Most men I know act as if their penis is their best friend. I know NO women who refer to their genetalia as 'the little woman'. Perhaps this stems from an instinctive protective reaction due to trauma?
The question is, just how many foreskins lead to problems? I am sure it is miniscule amount. The point is that if the person wants it done, he can get it done when he can make that decision for himself. Once it’s off, it’s off. I have a Swedish friend who got it done at 25, and he is happy with his decision. Personally, I’m glad I still have mine. If American girls have hangups about it, that’s tough. I have only been with one American, and she didn’t have a problem with it. in fact, she came back for seconds.
Pual: When foreskin causes as much trouble as wisdom teeth do (in reality, not theory) then it will be more acceptable. Even so, dentists don’t reccommend pulling wisdom teeth until they prove to be a problem. Yours were impacted - they came out. Mine were not - they stayed in.
Nate Dogg - You’re correct, STD’s are more likely to infect uncircumsized men. This is a result of the nasty virus and bacteria being able to hide out under the foreskin; however, women are even more suceptible to STD infection than uncircumsized men because the vagina is a much better hidingplace/breeding ground for the virus or bacteria. Does this mean that we should circumsize women by removing their labia so more air can get up in there and dry things out? This procedure would probably also reduce the number of yeast and urinary tract infections that millions of innocent women suffer from each year. Oh yeah, it would also be easier for those poor women to keep clean without all that extra skin covering that thing up. Whaddaya think? should we begin to circumsize women too? It’s just a piece of skin, you know, just an unecessary flap of skin to cover the vagina, that we don’t need anymore cause now we all wear clothes to protect our naughty bits…
Well, you’re gonna have to let me inspect all these women’s vagina’s first hand. I’ll give you my opinion on whether they need to be circumcised. LOL! Silly, silly people!
A woman could go in for a partial birth abortion, induce labor, pop the little guys head out, puncture the base of his skull and suck out his brain, and that is HER choice. But snipping a bit of foreskin off the little guy’s little guy is a human rights violation. Excellent.
Your assertion that circumcision is merely cosmetic doesn’t stand up to the facts. JayM’s post is just one example. Circumcising prevents a whole host of foreskin-related problems, not least among them infection. Your argument about women keeping things clean is bogus as well. Maybe you’ve never had a urinary tract or yeast infection, but they happen. And so what if the baby experiences pain during the circumcision? They experience pain when they get vaccinated. The benefits of circumcision far outweigh the costs. A little bit of pain that they won’t remember when they’re older eliminated risk of far greater complications when they’re older.