CIA:Iraq War Worsens Terror Threat

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
100meters wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
100meters wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
100meters wrote:

Yep…that’s exactly how traditional interrogation techniques would go down.
No information has ever been gained unless we torture…reality backs that up.

Hell, we’d never know those women in Salem weren’t witches unless we tortured them.

I just can’t believe you guys get to vote…jesus.

When they captured, they’re not just going to come out and tell you about plots and battle plans and all that.

Why would they?

You knock’em around a little bit, and they’ll talk a lot more.

Not too mention that the “witches” in Salem were not captured by rival witches who wanted to blow up lots of innocent non-witches. That’s a terrible analogy.

Torture, to me, is plugging a car battery to your balls and leaving you for a week. Smacking someone around and intimidating them is not the same. C’mon now…

Agreed. I don’t want heavy duty torture.

I do want tough questioning. Tougher then the Geneva Convention allows.

I’ll take the lightest touch(by all accounts none) needed to procure the best/most reliable intel with no longterm consequences…

It’s naive to think that experts have come to these conclusions based only on morals.

It is naive to believe the talking heads you see on TV are experts.

It is naive to believe the true experts would tell what really happens and expose themselves to legal repercussions.

Funny that you equate military leadership and intelligence officers to talking heads… there is zero respect for our military by you guys.

Which military leaders share their secrets with you?

Or did you get your incredible insight from the Daily Kos?[/quote]

Uh, the military’s disdain for torture has been well documented over and over and over again…as you’ll remember this issue is mostly Bush admin vs. Military.

for some insight via the “Internet”

http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2005/1119nj1.htm

http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html

http://news.inq7.net/breaking/index.php?index=3&story_id=59251

http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2004/06/18/torture_1/index.html

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7440

See? you really don’t have to take Pres. Bush’s word that torture works…

142

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
100meters wrote:

Yep…that’s exactly how traditional interrogation techniques would go down.
No information has ever been gained unless we torture…reality backs that up.

Hell, we’d never know those women in Salem weren’t witches unless we tortured them.

I just can’t believe you guys get to vote…jesus.

When they captured, they’re not just going to come out and tell you about plots and battle plans and all that.

Why would they?

You knock’em around a little bit, and they’ll talk a lot more.

Not too mention that the “witches” in Salem were not captured by rival witches who wanted to blow up lots of innocent non-witches. That’s a terrible analogy.

Torture, to me, is plugging a car battery to your balls and leaving you for a week. Smacking someone around and intimidating them is not the same. C’mon now…

Agreed. I don’t want heavy duty torture.

I do want tough questioning. Tougher then the Geneva Convention allows.[/quote]

We’ll keep that in mind when we have the chimp up on charges in The Hague.

143

[quote]semper_fi wrote:
I know an ex Marine who fought in Vietnam, he said that for every war that the U.S. fights we should go all out and make a 100% effort to win. He said we should draft like 10 million soldiers and make all our industries help with the war production. He said if this happened in Vietnam they would have won.

And he said if the people who support the war don’t want to be drafted they should shut the fuck up and stop expecting other people to fight for them and if the people don’t want to be drafted then we shouldn’t be fighting the war in the first place. This is not my view but I gotta admit it does make some sense. What do you guys think?[/quote]

But HH and Doogie and Effr0, they all got these bumperplatestickers supporting the troops. What [i]more [i]do you want?

144

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
But HH and Doogie and Effr0, they all got these bumperplatestickers supporting the troops. What more do you want?[/quote]

You are wanting those that support the war to go to Iraq and fight - yet you stay in the pussified comfort of Belgium instead of actually going to the area to demand peace. I am sure the Iraqis would love to know that a coward like yourself cheers on the terrorists in the safety of his mother’s basement.

Put up or shit up. GO demand the peace where peace is needed, or shut the fuck up.

I am betting niether will happen. Cowards such as you can only bark. There is no bite.

145

[quote]JeffR wrote:

Oh, lumpy.

It might be a nice change of pace for you to post something positive from Iraq.

You do remember the boy who cries wolf?

JeffR
[/quote]

I don’t think anyone on this site can find anything positive from the war to post. If you can, please do.

146

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
But HH and Doogie and Effr0, they all got these bumperplatestickers supporting the troops. What more do you want?

You are wanting those that support the war to go to Iraq and fight - yet you stay in the pussified comfort of Belgium instead of actually going to the area to demand peace. I am sure the Iraqis would love to know that a coward like yourself cheers on the terrorists in the safety of his mother’s basement.

Put up or shit up. GO demand the peace where peace is needed, or shut the fuck up.

I am betting niether will happen. Cowards such as you can only bark. There is no bite. [/quote]
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]
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[
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147

[quote]Skystud wrote:
I don’t think anyone on this site can find anything positive from the war to post. If you can, please do.[/quote]

I’ll take this one.

Skystud: I’m assuming you’re a fellow liberal such a myself, and as such, I can find numerous times that the current administration has offended my sensibilities.

However

Some stuff is too important to relegate to “I hate the current president so I am against everything he stands for and has done.” I’m not saying this is you, I’m just saying that this is a common stance to take when a liberal finds himself against the Iraqi invasion.

You want to know some postive stuff from the Iraq Invasion? Okay…

No more Saddam stockpiling weapons that he illegally bought from money he stole from the Iraqi government which was grafted from the Oil For Food Program aided by High-ranking United Nations Officials like Kofi Annan’s son, numerous foreign oil companies, and even a couple of American ones.

The second largest oil fields in the world are no longer under the control of a megalomaniacal madman, a brand new democracy was born in what is easily argued as the most unstable place in the world (Middle East) with record voter turnout that some of the oldest democracies (like the US) couldn’t come close to matching, and we don’t have to dodge bullets to vote… usually.

Did I mention the incredibly valuable experience we are all getting from the rebuilding effort? Check out this link:

http://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/PCO_CONTENT/HOME/DOWNLOADS/THE_IRAQ_CHALLENGE.PDF

Here we see a bunch of agencies getting together to figure out how to best build valuable infrastructure that brings a nation from rotting away to becoming modernized and independent. What we learn from the Iraq rebuilding effort will help us for our next challenges to modernizing other parts of the world as well. Imagine establishing widespread reliable running water services and electricity to places that have never had them before. This is how you stimulate growth and development in general. If you build it, they will come. We’re talking jobs, escaping poverty, giving the youth of the middle east something to do besides hate the squalor of their life and turn to a path of destruction and hatred. Good God, they might even become successful and desire to help others in the way that we have helped them, paving the road to the success and development of other impoverished nations like they used to be.

“A kindness multiplies itself.”
-NOT Bertrand Russell

148

[quote]Skystud copied and pasted:
A bunch of Bertrand Russell quotes
[/quote]

Nice. Now how about an original thought of your own.

If you have something to say - do it the old fashioned way and just come out with it.

149

[quote]100meters wrote:

Good to here you are on the record for staying the course. But as you know Iraq is already divided, and they have made that choice(See all but independent Kurdistan)–we should just recognize it. It’s that whole reality thing again.
[/quote]

That is definitely one option – and one that was considered from the get-go.

The problem with the divided-Iraq option is that the Turks and some of the former Soviet republics would throw an utter sh*t-fit about the creation of an independent Kurdistan. Remember the reaction of the Arab world to the creation of Israel – it would be something along those lines.

And since Turkey is seen as a key player in the region, and a model for Islamic democracies, they are loathe to upset the Turks (even after the Turks upset the entirety of the Iraq battle plan by refusing to let U.S. forces down from the north via Turkey).

So maybe time to reconsider? Perhaps – but don’t kid yourself into thinking it wasn’t considered and rejected for relatively solid reasons.

I think the best option might be a strong-form federal system, a la Switzerland, that gives the three sections of the country a lot of independence but forces revenue sharing and mixing of the population in the armed forces and a national police force.

150

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

I think the best option might be a strong-form federal system, a la Switzerland, that gives the three sections of the country a lot of independence but forces revenue sharing and mixing of the population in the armed forces and a national police force.[/quote]

If you think that they can or will cooperate that much with each other, than you are far more idealistic than I thought.

It sounds good, but I don’t know that they will ever work together. Hell, they can’t even stop killing each other for a week.

151

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
100meters wrote:

Good to here you are on the record for staying the course. But as you know Iraq is already divided, and they have made that choice(See all but independent Kurdistan)–we should just recognize it. It’s that whole reality thing again.

That is definitely one option – and one that was considered from the get-go.

The problem with the divided-Iraq option is that the Turks and some of the former Soviet republics would throw an utter sh*t-fit about the creation of an independent Kurdistan. Remember the reaction of the Arab world to the creation of Israel – it would be something along those lines.

And since Turkey is seen as a key player in the region, and a model for Islamic democracies, they are loathe to upset the Turks (even after the Turks upset the entirety of the Iraq battle plan by refusing to let U.S. forces down from the north via Turkey).

So maybe time to reconsider? Perhaps – but don’t kid yourself into thinking it wasn’t considered and rejected for relatively solid reasons.

I think the best option might be a strong-form federal system, a la Switzerland, that gives the three sections of the country a lot of independence but forces revenue sharing and mixing of the population in the armed forces and a national police force.[/quote]

One problem.
Kurdistan is independent now.
And as some have pointed out (Peter Galbraith comes to mind) Turkey is already coming to grips with this reality—a growing minority seeking to start investing in Kurdistan.
Again its just a matter of accepting reality.

The future is almost certain for a loose federation of 3 states.

152

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
100meters wrote:

Good to here you are on the record for staying the course. But as you know Iraq is already divided, and they have made that choice(See all but independent Kurdistan)–we should just recognize it. It’s that whole reality thing again.

That is definitely one option – and one that was considered from the get-go.

The problem with the divided-Iraq option is that the Turks and some of the former Soviet republics would throw an utter sh*t-fit about the creation of an independent Kurdistan. Remember the reaction of the Arab world to the creation of Israel – it would be something along those lines.

And since Turkey is seen as a key player in the region, and a model for Islamic democracies, they are loathe to upset the Turks (even after the Turks upset the entirety of the Iraq battle plan by refusing to let U.S. forces down from the north via Turkey).

So maybe time to reconsider? Perhaps – but don’t kid yourself into thinking it wasn’t considered and rejected for relatively solid reasons.

I think the best option might be a strong-form federal system, a la Switzerland, that gives the three sections of the country a lot of independence but forces revenue sharing and mixing of the population in the armed forces and a national police force.[/quote]

Also a national police force would not go over well with any of the 3 factions in Iraq. At least not anytime soon.
The Kurds hate the other 2 and police themselves already…as do the shia, it seems the biggest problem is the sunni, perhaps disbanding the army, not paying them and telling them get out and take your weapons with you (after telling them they would stay and be paid) was a mistake. (of course predicted).

153

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
No more Saddam stockpiling weapons that he illegally bought from money he stole from the Iraqi government which was grafted from the Oil For Food Program aided by High-ranking United Nations Officials like Kofi Annan’s son, numerous foreign oil companies, and even a couple of American ones.

The second largest oil fields in the world are no longer under the control of a megalomaniacal madman, a brand new democracy was born in what is easily argued as the most unstable place in the world (Middle East) with record voter turnout that some of the oldest democracies (like the US) couldn’t come close to matching, and we don’t have to dodge bullets to vote… usually.

Did I mention the incredibly valuable experience we are all getting from the rebuilding effort? Check out this link:

http://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/PCO_CONTENT/HOME/DOWNLOADS/THE_IRAQ_CHALLENGE.PDF

Here we see a bunch of agencies getting together to figure out how to best build valuable infrastructure that brings a nation from rotting away to becoming modernized and independent. What we learn from the Iraq rebuilding effort will help us for our next challenges to modernizing other parts of the world as well. Imagine establishing widespread reliable running water services and electricity to places that have never had them before. This is how you stimulate growth and development in general. If you build it, they will come. We’re talking jobs, escaping poverty, giving the youth of the middle east something to do besides hate the squalor of their life and turn to a path of destruction and hatred. Good God, they might even become successful and desire to help others in the way that we have helped them, paving the road to the success and development of other impoverished nations like they used to be.

“A kindness multiplies itself.”
-NOT Bertrand Russell[/quote]

Consider for just a moment that the old quote is true, “Every man is his own country”. Now, using your logic, if I’m your neighbor and I don’t like, say … your gun collection. And I come over to your house and burn it down, and the next day I sift around looking for the guns and so fourth. How would I look? Would I be right to do this?
Now, following this train of thought, suppose after burning your house to the ground and finding no guns, I decide to do you and your family a favor and rebuild your house. But instead of leaving you as the head of your household, I put your brother-in-law in charge. How would that appear? Don’t worry I promise to build your house back even stronger and better than before.
I’m sure your family would view me the same way the Iraqi citizens view our government right now.

And as for those weapons of Mass destruction, WHERE ARE THEY. WE SOLD THEM TO HIM ANYWAY. WHERE DO YOU THINK HE GOT THEM. THAT GAS WAS USED ON IRAN.

As for the rebuilding effort, I can only guess how happy some of these companies are to get in on the action. Uncle Sam in paying them well.

I don’t get your point.
sorry.

154

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

The second largest oil fields in the world are no longer under the control of a megalomaniacal madman

No, I believe that name was given to adold hitler, Why do we always call our enemys the same thing.

I suppose if clean drinking water was what we needed we could just accuse Canada of something and go in and take that country too? Is this how you feel? Should we go into Iran because they want to enrich uranium, Invade N. Korea, because of their long range missile testing? Not just no, fuck no.

this is why we have allies. We’re the most powerful country on earth. We should never go in unilaterally. we can’t afford this type of foriegn policy, unfortunatly we wont find that out for a while

sorry for typos, watching yanks/ lions game

155

[quote]Skystud wrote:
Now, following this train of thought, suppose after burning your house to the ground and finding no guns, I decide to do you and your family a favor and rebuild your house. But instead of leaving you as the head of your household, I put your brother-in-law in charge. How would that appear? Don’t worry I promise to build your house back even stronger and better than before.
I’m sure your family would view me the same way the Iraqi citizens view our government right now.
[/quote]

Okay, a fun analogy. But get it right:
Before you became head of the household, your house was in pretty good shape, but then you started drinking heavily, beating your wife and kids and buying more guns, threatening to invade your neighbor’s house and you even tried breaking in once before the cops came and threw your ass out.

Then, against all odds, you didn’t go to jail, but managed to cop a plea to get house arrest and wear an ankle bracelet. So, you get some unsavory dudes across the street to help you pawn your stuff, and using the money you buy more guns and even take potshots at the police cruisers that patrol your neighborhood.

And it took the SWAT team ten years to tire of this shit and bust down your door, free your family from your abuse, and give them a fresh start while you get hauled off to jail to finally answer for your crimes like you should have back when you broke into your neighbor’s house to steal his stuff.

Not so crazy now, huh? :slight_smile:

156

That’s not the point.

The point is the invasion of Iraq sidetracked to war on terror, tied down the US military and therefore the US political options globally (when dealing with Iran and NK), fueled the fundamentalistic muslims and increased their recruitment pool.

The point is also that this was explained to Bush. But he dismissed the warnings and went ahead anyway.

The world will be stuck with the consequences for decades.

157

Fuck terrorism. It’s only terrorism if youre terrified. The GOP andg George Bush are far more horrific than some third world nutbag. Far more people are going to die in Iraq than 9-11. The government and the media have made everyone a bunch of fucking cowards. They’ve used fear as a weapon to keep people under control. As long as the majority of the people in this country are fat dumb and afraid they’ve succeeded.

The “war” in iraq is nothing more than an excuse to increases defense spending which lines the pockets of GW and his constituants. I.E. halliburton. Terrorism is not going to harm this country nearly as much as fear and ignorance. And for you so called patriots who feel we are fighting the good fight WAKE UP!!! You are being lied to and have been from day one. Ten percent of what you hear on the news is only half true and the rest is a dog and pony show.

158

[quote]lunchbox wrote:
Fuck terrorism. It’s only terrorism if youre terrified. The GOP andg George Bush are far more horrific than some third world nutbag. Far more people are going to die in Iraq than 9-11. The government and the media have made everyone a bunch of fucking cowards. They’ve used fear as a weapon to keep people under control. As long as the majority of the people in this country are fat dumb and afraid they’ve succeeded.

The “war” in iraq is nothing more than an excuse to increases defense spending which lines the pockets of GW and his constituants. I.E. halliburton. Terrorism is not going to harm this country nearly as much as fear and ignorance. And for you so called patriots who feel we are fighting the good fight WAKE UP!!! You are being lied to and have been from day one. Ten percent of what you hear on the news is only half true and the rest is a dog and pony show. [/quote]

Right on!

159

Lothario 90210 or whatever.

Lunchbox is right. We are in a war and we’re not doing very well. face it. Our mission was accomplished when GW said it was. We should declare victory and leave. Let those people fix their own country without our military. The only reason we are there today is because of all the oil.

WAKE UP.

160

[quote]Skystud wrote:
Lothario 90210 or whatever.

Lunchbox is right. We are in a war and we’re not doing very well. face it. Our mission was accomplished when GW said it was. We should declare victory and leave. Let those people fix their own country without our military. The only reason we are there today is because of all the oil.

WAKE UP.[/quote]

And how much oil have we taken? As much as the French received in the OFF scandal?

Please show some documentation that we are indeed over there for the oil. Easy to accuse when you don’t have to back it up with pesky little things like facts.