Gold.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
He has just as deep seated a need to believe as anyone else. A truly hypocritical statement.
[/quote]
Please explain.[/quote]
OK, but briefly for now. He is contrasting “men of science” like himself, and us believers. His conclusions are all dispassionate, and based on facts, and oh so logical. This is simply not true. When we believers reject his interpretation of facts, we are illogical. Which is not true either.
Sagan needs his facts to tell him there is no God. He needs to believe this, or his whole life must be turned upside down. His need to believe is indeed as strong as any religious person.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
And now I must hold your feet to the fire (bad humor I know). Is that you in your new avatar smoking in the library?
[/quote]
I am shocked and appalled that anyone could think a 29 year old meathead could look like THAT. LOL
No man, that’s Christopher Hitchens.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
And now I must hold your feet to the fire (bad humor I know). Is that you in your new avatar smoking in the library?
[/quote]
I am shocked and appalled that anyone could think a 29 year old meathead could look like THAT. LOL
No man, that’s Christopher Hitchens.
[/quote]
I was thinkin’ that, but had to ask. Maybe you had aged beyond your years or something.
May I suggest an avatar that emphasizes latent quickness:
Perhaps something in black and white
with a handlebar mustache
a little more sense of action.
Oh my goodness Mr.Chen, but you do have issues.
[quote]pushharder wrote:<<< The part where you mentioned ol’ Push says he holds that as well. >>>[/quote] You linked approvingly to this Page: Comparative Religion - How can those who never heard about Christ be saved? and a few others like it on 08-23-2011, 08:33 PM. Source is here http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/why_did_god_create?id=4691240&pageNo=30 [quote]pushharder wrote:<<< Why are you so obsessed with me that you’re willing to lie? Why? [/quote]He mentioned you first as a glance though this thread would have revealed. Although I do often in my prayers, I wasn’t even thinking about you at all during this discussion until he brought you up, and as usual I’m still waiting for the first demonstration of one of my lies that I dared you to find several months ago. If you’re going to keep accusing me of lying, prove it (in a different thread please) or shaddup. I’m keepin that pew warm for ya btw.
[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Oh my goodness Mr.Chen, but you do have issues.[/quote]
I know, he’s a figurine, but he looks like he might lift weights at least.
And I’m trying to break 500 posts.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:<<< Let’s take the most glaring pentacostal idiocy- “speaking in tongues” Youtube is blocked where I’m at, but I’m sure you could find a clip of such a church service. Kenneth Copeland, the TV megapreacher is big on this stuff. What are tongues in the bible really? In the Old Testament, the word tongue(s) appears 161 times and ALWAYS means- the slippery thing in your mouth, or a natural language that at least some people speak and understand, like English or Farsi. I speak two. When you plug this definition into the passages in the New Testament, it becomes very clear what is happening in Acts chapter 2 or 1Corinthians chapter 14 for example. The Pentacostals take verses from these passages out of their context, ignore how the bible has already defined tongues more than 100 times, and make up a practice where they blabber gibberish, and think it’s some kind of heavenly prayer language. It’s lunacy.
Conclusion: They are wackos.
[/quote]Ouch LOL!!! Mr. Chen’s a tough one and I’ll admit, I was waiting to see what he would say about this. I agree totally with his theological assessment of “tongues”. It’s always a known human language. Copeland btw, has problems faaar more serious than tongues, like his absolutely heretical new age metaphysical, entire system of doctrine. Another story.
That said, there are some very fine Christian people who though very VERY wrong on things like tongues and a whole list of other stuff, ARE our brethren in Christ as I sincerely hope Mr. Chen would also affirm. They have the life and death essentials intact.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:<<< Let’s take the most glaring pentacostal idiocy- “speaking in tongues” Youtube is blocked where I’m at, but I’m sure you could find a clip of such a church service. Kenneth Copeland, the TV megapreacher is big on this stuff. What are tongues in the bible really? In the Old Testament, the word tongue(s) appears 161 times and ALWAYS means- the slippery thing in your mouth, or a natural language that at least some people speak and understand, like English or Farsi. I speak two. When you plug this definition into the passages in the New Testament, it becomes very clear what is happening in Acts chapter 2 or 1Corinthians chapter 14 for example. The Pentacostals take verses from these passages out of their context, ignore how the bible has already defined tongues more than 100 times, and make up a practice where they blabber gibberish, and think it’s some kind of heavenly prayer language. It’s lunacy.
Conclusion: They are wackos.
[/quote]Ouch LOL!!! Mr. Chen’s a tough one and I’ll admit, I was waiting to see what he would say about this. I agree totally with his theological assessment of “tongues”. It’s always a known human language. Copeland btw, has problems faaar more serious than tongues, like his absolutely heretical new age metaphysical, entire system of doctrine. Another story.
That said, there are some very fine Christian people who though very VERY wrong on things like tongues and a whole list of other stuff, ARE our brethren in Christ as I sincerely hope Mr. Chen would also affirm. They have the life and death essentials intact.
[/quote]
Yes that would be true, some Pentacostals due present enough of the gospel to help some people. But that new Christian that starts out in such a church is going to have a hard time growing into a normal Christian, since he will be constantly bombarded with nonsense. Within the Pentacostal movement, you will find various states, from snake handlers to someone like Jimmy Swaggart, who could preach a decent gospel message. And I have some inlaws who are pentacostal. We rarely talk about specific bible topics. They cannot bear a plain presentation of scripture.
On the occasions I’ve had to talk bible with a Pentacostal, I always recommend they get out of the movement, and find a bible-believing church.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
“You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe” -Dr. Carl Sagan
[/quote]
Typical bunk from Carl.[/quote]
I know, right? LOL…crazy old Carl and his silly science mumbo jumbo.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
He has just as deep seated a need to believe as anyone else. A truly hypocritical statement. You’re impressed by it Bigflamer?[/quote]
I’m neither impressed nor unimpressed, but I do understand what he’s trying to say and I do agree with it. People like Carl would welcome their world being turned upside down, as long as it’s based on factual evidence and not fairy tales about sky wizards. People like Carl actively seek to turn the world upside down with what they discover through science, and with a healthy heap of skepticism, question the bullshit tribal folklore that our early ancestors used to try and explain a complex world before we knew better.
Your right, we all need to believe in something. Atheists like Sagan, myself, and others, choose to believe in what’s real. We believe in our family, friends, and loved ones, and choose not to waste our love or our precious time on imaginary friends. Sagan believed in a scientific method that allows scientists to actually explain a complex world, instead of relying on the absolute bullshit that gets fed to us through religion.
Yes, we believe in many things, we’re just not willing to suspend our capacity for reason and surrender our minds to all the ridiculousness that is religion. The problem with faith is that it teaches us to believe in things that are without evidence, and are certainly not real.
[i]“And here is the point, about myself and my co-thinkers. Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open mindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.”
â?? Christopher Hitchens (God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything)
“The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry” -Richard Dawkins
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
He has just as deep seated a need to believe as anyone else. A truly hypocritical statement.
[/quote]
Please explain.[/quote]
OK, but briefly for now. He is contrasting “men of science” like himself, and us believers. His conclusions are all dispassionate, and based on facts, and oh so logical. This is simply not true. When we believers reject his interpretation of facts, we are illogical. Which is not true either.
Sagan needs his facts to tell him there is no God. He needs to believe this, or his whole life must be turned upside down. His need to believe is indeed as strong as any religious person. [/quote]
LOL…good grief.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:…You linked approvingly…[/quote]“So Push says he holds that as well along with every other bible butchering liberal” is actually “linked approvingly,” huh?
Maybe that is not actual “lying” on your part but it IS quintessential disingenuousness. You do yourself no favors by displaying disingenuousness.[/quote]I stand with a clear conscience before the Lord. People here are free to see what I said and what you said on the page I linked to and determine for themselves whether I am justified in that stance. There’s a simple solution Push. Repent. Forsake your idols, implore His mercy and live. You will never EVER be able to show me lying. Guess why. Because I do not lie. I was once the most frighteningly skilled liar you would have ever met. It took the transforming Spirit of the most high God to slay that beast in me. The truth is all I’ll ever want or need because His word is truth (John 17:17).
Yer battin zero again. I did not bring you up here and I only took you at your word. The page is right there. I’m not givin up on you. You could be so much better than this man. But not without His resurrection life in your heart.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Also, I cannot speak for other brands of “Christianity”. If you’re a Pentacostal wacko for example, I would expect your kids to reject such nonsense as soon as they are old enough to reason on their own. There are all kinds out their that claim the name of Christ, as we’ve gone over before. If you’re not going to fully follow the bible with reverence, humility, and diligent study, it’s anybody’s guess what results you’ll get with your kids.
[/quote]
Why do you consider Pentalcostal’s wackos?
[/quote]
This is a worthwhile question, so even though it’s a few pages back already, here ya go:
First, if you’re going to follow the bible in practice, then you need to put in a reasonable amount of time to study and learn what the bible says. A christian is commanded to “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2Ti 2:15) There are some practices peculiar to pentacostal “christianity” that are clearly nonsense, when you study the bible as it pertains to these particular practices.
Let’s take the most glaring pentacostal idiocy- “speaking in tongues” Youtube is blocked where I’m at, but I’m sure you could find a clip of such a church service. Kenneth Copeland, the TV megapreacher is big on this stuff. What are tongues in the bible really? In the Old Testament, the word tongue(s) appears 161 times and ALWAYS means- the slippery thing in your mouth, or a natural language that at least some people speak and understand, like English or Farsi. I speak two. When you plug this definition into the passages in the New Testament, it becomes very clear what is happening in Acts chapter 2 or 1Corinthians chapter 14 for example. The Pentacostals take verses from these passages out of their context, ignore how the bible has already defined tongues more than 100 times, and make up a practice where they blabber gibberish, and think it’s some kind of heavenly prayer language. It’s lunacy.
Conclusion: They are wackos.
[/quote]
I’ll ask my friend who is Pentalcostal about this.
There is definitely some weird worship going on in some sects.