Christmas Only for the Religious?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Uh, no, the topic was on the celebration of a holiday that is considered by most today to be religious

More crap. It’s considered by most to be religious because, well, most ARE religious. At least in words.

Those that don’t consider it religious simply celebrate it in whatever secular way they see fit.

People, be they religious or not, like to celebrate and they like having holidays. Claiming that part of the population should skip the celebrations because they don’t see them like you do is, frankly, bigoted and stupid.
[/quote]

Not one person here, including me, has stated that people should skip celebrating the holiday. If you even think that has been the argument, you can’t read very well.

62

[quote]Professor X wrote:
…and what do your actions say about you?[/quote]

That’s the entire point. I don’t claim to be trying to model my life on that of the divine Son of God. I don’t profess to believe that I will be judged by God after my death and that the eternal fate of my soul will then be decided.

Christians make that claim, but don’t really believe it. Except for an infinitesimal minority. Hence the annoying hypocrisy. If you’re a Christian in word only, with no effort or action to back it up, don’t even mention it. And don’t bring it up as an argument for celebrating Christmas while denouncing others celebrating it differently.

63

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Not one person here, including me, has stated that people should skip celebrating the holiday. If you even think that has been the argument, you can’t read very well.[/quote]

What are you, a fucking goldfish?

“it makes no sense for someone to claim to be an atheist but then turn around and celebrate a holiday based in religion.”

Ergo, it would make sense for someone claiming to be an atheist to not celebrate a holiday based in religion.

64

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Not one person here, including me, has stated that people should skip celebrating the holiday. If you even think that has been the argument, you can’t read very well.

What are you, a fucking goldfish?

“it makes no sense for someone to claim to be an atheist but then turn around and celebrate a holiday based in religion.”

Ergo, it would make sense for someone claiming to be an atheist to not celebrate a holiday based in religion.
[/quote]

Actually, what has been stated is that it may be morally right to acknowledge the basis of a holiday if you are going to celebrate it even if you don’t believe in the religion that influences it. I didn’t write anywhere that no one but Christians should ever celebrate Christmas. I wrote that it makes little sense to me.

It is funny how upset you seem to get at anyone who has an opinion that doesn’t agree with yours. You even take it as far as degrading them for what they believe in. That sure is a lot of emotion for someone who claims to not care.

65

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
…and what do your actions say about you?

That’s the entire point. I don’t claim to be trying to model my life on that of the divine Son of God. I don’t profess to believe that I will be judged by God after my death and that the eternal fate of my soul will then be decided.

Christians make that claim, but don’t really believe it. Except for an infinitesimal minority. Hence the annoying hypocrisy. If you’re a Christian in word only, with no effort or action to back it up, don’t even mention it. And don’t bring it up as an argument for celebrating Christmas while denouncing others celebrating it differently.
[/quote]

How do you know what people really believe in? Not one Christian alive would be truthful if they didn’t believe that every person on this planet has faults and does the WRONG thing at times. Why would you judge an entire religion by humans who have faults?

What do you do for a living? Have you ever…EVER made a mistake either in your education or at work? If so, I then judge you incompetent to ever perform your job.

That makes as much sense as the typewritten jumble you just posted.

I suggest you never go to another professional for any service needed in your anti-religious existence. There is bound to be someone somewhere in that same profession who has not done it correctly.

66

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Actually, what has been stated is that it may be morally right to acknowledge the basis of a holiday if you are going to celebrate it even if you don’t believe in the religion that influences it.[/quote]

What has been stated? Are you kidding? What I quoted and this have absolutely nothing in common.

Since you’re so high on being morally right, I presume you spent a good part of Christmas making sure everyone you met was aware of all the pagan and secular traditions that are involved in Christmas. Or does that only apply when it concerns your religion?

Is everyone not religious to acknowledge the Church’s influence on Christmas, while everyone religious get to celebrate it with nary a thought to the history of that holiday?

If there’s a basis to be acknowledged, might as well go all the way to the real root of it: The winter solstice AKA the rebirth of the sun. That’s been the universal thread for at least 12,000 years; until the Church decided to replace the rebirth of the sun with the “birth of the Son.”

So, how many people did you inform of that fact over the holiday?

You need to learn to express yourself more clearly. Everyone but you understood otherwise.

You should think more before clicking submit. It would cut down on those threads where you say something entirely idiotic on the first page and then spend 10 mores pages pretending that what you wrote means something different than what you wrote.

That’s rather amusing coming from someone who’s modes of operation oscillate between angry, angrier and angriest.

Although if my opinions on page two constantly differed from my opinions on page one, I might get frustrated too.

It might even be interesting one day to have a debate about the topic, instead of a meta-debate about what the words you use actually mean, vs. what you claim they mean later on.

Degrading them? You mean like matching your little rape fantasy with another one? Do you get a free pass in degrading others? Because you’re black maybe? You sure seem entitled to do a lot of stuff that you immediately call out whenever someone else does it. If I get a real dark tan, do I get to do it too?

As for caring, I do care when some deluded proponent of make-believe presumes to tell me how I should live my life.

67

[quote]Professor X wrote:
What do you do for a living? Have you ever…EVER made a mistake either in your education or at work? If so, I then judge you incompetent to ever perform your job.[/quote]

Analogies are really not your strength, are they?

I’ve made mistakes in my work. What I haven’t done is keep on repeating the same mistakes time after time after time. If I did, then I’d be incompetent and I’d probably find something else to do.

You, as a Christian, keep on repeating the same mistakes all the time. Even when your un-Christian-like behavior is pointed out to you, you never acknowledge it. You usually compound it with more unchristianlike behavior, judging, attacking and degrading your interlocutor (or “opponent” I believe is your preferred term) until they tire of the whole thing.

Very little is seen of “Love thy neighbor” or “turn the other cheek” or “Judge not…” Prideful sanctimony and self-righteous judgment, THAT you can spew by the gallon all day long.

As a Christian, you are completely incompetent. Nothing about you, your words or your attitude shows any effort in trying to be in any way like Jesus (who puts the the “Christ” in “Christian,” right?). Yet, time and again, you give us that tripe about how your faith and beliefs are so important to you and such an important part of your life. Do you really expect to fool anyone? Besides yourself?

Making mistakes is not the problem. Continuously repeating the same mistakes, while claiming to be making a conscious effort not to, is.

How many gym goers have you blasted for showing no results after years of training? Yet, after 20+ years of Christian living, all the result you can show is… you?

But keep making those foot-shaped analogies, and I’ll keep inserting them back in that large mouth of yours.

68

[quote]pookie wrote:
Since you’re so high on being morally right, I presume you spent a good part of Christmas making sure everyone you met was aware of all the pagan and secular traditions that are involved in Christmas. Or does that only apply when it concerns your religion? [/quote]

Why would a holiday based on a religious event need to focus on the significance of the pagan rituals that some people performed centuries ago when that isn’t what that date stands for right now? How many honest to goodness pagans do you know?

Why would I need to inform every Christian I met of every historical event around every date of every religious holiday when there are so few people on the planet actually celebrating those pagan rituals that it isn’t socially significant?

This isn’t about me trying to inform the world of historical bullet points. This is about INDIVIDUALS celebrating HOLIDAYS without acknowledging what that HOLIDAY represents TODAY. It isn’t like that hasn’t been clear.

[quote]
Is everyone not religious to acknowledge the Church’s influence on Christmas, while everyone religious get to celebrate it with nary a thought to the history of that holiday?[/quote]

The Holiday in religion is based on the birth of Christ regardless of the date it falls on. It isn’t based on paganism. Unless you are a PAGAN, you have no point with that. Unless your goal is to inform the world of all historical events, you again have no point with that one.

In 2007, that date will still represent a religious holiday in this country. The question posed was whether it is morally correct for people to take part in their own homes without ever acknowledging that point. This has not been about starting a campaign for all non-Christians to never celebrate the day.

69

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why would a holiday based on a religious event need to focus on the significance of the pagan rituals that some people performed centuries ago when that isn’t what that date stands for right now? How many honest to goodness pagans do you know?[/quote]

Why would someone not religious need to focus on the religious significance the holiday has for other people? Why would someone go out of his way to explain something he doesn’t believe in?

You don’t make sense.

Exactly. Apparently, you can see the point when the roles are reversed. Pretend you’re not a Christian - which shouldn’t require much effort - and try justifying why you should inform people of the significance Christmas has for Christians.

What it represents varies from people to people. The simple fact that it is an official, national holiday with plenty of days off for most people, since it merges with New Year celebrations, means that people will use the occasion to celebrate, regardless of their reasons for doing so.

I’m pretty sure everyone can acknowledge what the holiday means for them. Why they should also acknowledge what it means to you is beyond me.

And outside of religion it isn’t, regardless of how much that pisses you off.

So, since I’m not a pagan, I can’t mention the pagan origins of Christmas? I’m not a Christian either, but I should mention the Christian influence on the holiday?

Not pagan → DO NOT mention pagan influences on the holiday.

Not Christian → DO mention Christian influences on the holiday.

Hopefully, this is clear enough for even you to understand. Don’t be afraid to read it as many times as it takes to sink in.

Actually, I don’t really give a shit about the origins of the holiday. I spend it having some good times with my friends and family. If I’m specifically asked about it, I answer the questions as truthfully as I can. Hasn’t ever happened in close to 40 years now… I guess most people are able to extract whatever Christmas means to them by themselves.

To those who are religious. To others, it’s simply a national holiday.

And again, since you’re not a pagan, you don’t feel the need to acknowledge any of the pagan influences on that holiday. People who are not Christians or not religious feel the exact same way you do.

But they are, according to you, “morally wrong.”

Odd, that’s exactly what your first posting in this thread said. Or, more precisely, that they could celebrate it, but that it made no sense, they were hypocrites who wanted cake and gifts…

Why didn’t you just say “Non-Christians can celebrate the holiday in a way that makes sense to them if they’re not religious or of some other religion.” if that’s what you meant.

70

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
What do you do for a living? Have you ever…EVER made a mistake either in your education or at work? If so, I then judge you incompetent to ever perform your job.

Analogies are really not your strength, are they?

I’ve made mistakes in my work. What I haven’t done is keep on repeating the same mistakes time after time after time. If I did, then I’d be incompetent and I’d probably find something else to do.

You, as a Christian, keep on repeating the same mistakes all the time. Even when your un-Christian-like behavior is pointed out to you, you never acknowledge it. You usually compound it with more unchristianlike behavior, judging, attacking and degrading your interlocutor (or “opponent” I believe is your preferred term) until they tire of the whole thing.

Very little is seen of “Love thy neighbor” or “turn the other cheek” or “Judge not…” Prideful sanctimony and self-righteous judgment, THAT you can spew by the gallon all day long.[/quote]

How do you know at all what any individual’s mistakes are? How would you know they repeat those same mistakes? The entire religion is based on the fact that people ARE sinners and do wrong things. It is not and never has been based on trying to be perfect at all times. If you thought otherwise, you have been severely misinformed.

You would know nothing about any ‘results’ in my personal life. You don’t know anything about what I accomplish on a daily basis unless I specifically tell you. So what are you talking about?

71

[quote]pookie wrote:
Why would someone not religious need to focus on the religious significance the holiday has for other people? Why would someone go out of his way to explain something he doesn’t believe in?

You don’t make sense.[/quote]

Why would someone who doesn’t believe in a religion take part in a religious celebration, even call it by that religious name, yet never acknowledge what that date actually represents? That is what doesn’t make much sense.

If I personally was going to reject the idea of God, I wouldn’t celebrate that day in my own home. It is as simple as that. I don’t currently celebrate “Halloween” either.

[quote]
And again, since you’re not a pagan, you don’t feel the need to acknowledge any of the pagan influences on that holiday. People who are not Christians or not religious feel the exact same way you do.[/quote]

What? Are YOU a pagan? If not, why do you keep bringing that up? The day doesn’t stand for a pagan holiday for most of the living human beings on this continent today so what are you talking about?

How many active pagans are there in America right now? When was the last time you ran across even 50 real Pagans standing next to each other?

72

[quote]Professor X wrote:
How do you know at all what any individual’s mistakes are? How would you know they repeat those same mistakes?[/quote]

Because you post them on a public forum where anyone can read them. Don’t you think that your general attitude towards others come through in what you write and the way you write it?

I know a lot of the bluntness is to cover up your deep-seated insecurities, but at some point, no one can fake being an asshole 100% of the time. We then discover that most of it is your true character.

I go from the part you show in these forums. I’m quite aware that it’s not your entire life, but if shown a small part of something and it looks like shit, the safe bet is to assume you’re looking at part of a turd and not a bit of shit stuck on a diamond.

73

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why would someone who doesn’t believe in a religion take part in a religious celebration,[/quote]

I don’t take part in any religious celebration. I celebrate the holiday as I see fit.

I call it “Christmas” because that’s the English name for the holiday. As has been pointed out, the name has much less religious overtones in French or Spanish.

Your obstinate desire to miss the point is the only thing that makes no sense here.

Good for you. You can do what you want in your own home.

I’ll do the same in mine.

You will if you ever have kids, trust me.

You’re the one who brought it up, you idiot.

And if you’re so concerned about “most of the living beings on the planet” I’d like to point out that there are about 2 billion Christians (although each sect thinks every other is wrong and hellbound…) out of a population of over 6 billions.

That hardly qualifies as “most.”

I have yet to run across 50 real Christians, so I’m not holding out for pagans.

74

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
How do you know at all what any individual’s mistakes are? How would you know they repeat those same mistakes?

Because you post them on a public forum where anyone can read them. Don’t you think that your general attitude towards others come through in what you write and the way you write it?

I know a lot of the bluntness is to cover up your deep-seated insecurities, but at some point, no one can fake being an asshole 100% of the time. We then discover that most of it is your true character.[/quote]

That was cute. Let me ask you…if someone were to list some of the better positive contributors on this discussion forum who were not being paid, between us, who would make the list?

And you clearly show what a wonderful judge of character you are. Here’s one thing you can bank on; when it is all said and done, more people thank me daily at work (clinically) and yes, even on this forum, than you could imagine.

That means you can make whatever judgements allow you to believe that you are superior. The truth always comes out eventually…and you don’t have much to offer on any level it seems.

75

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Why would someone who doesn’t believe in a religion take part in a religious celebration,

I don’t take part in any religious celebration. I celebrate the holiday as I see fit.

even call it by that religious name, yet never acknowledge what that date actually represents?

I call it “Christmas” because that’s the English name for the holiday. As has been pointed out, the name has much less religious overtones in French or Spanish.

That is what doesn’t make much sense.

Your obstinate desire to miss the point is the only thing that makes no sense here.

If I personally was going to reject the idea of God, I wouldn’t celebrate that day in my own home. It is as simple as that.

Good for you. You can do what you want in your own home.

I’ll do the same in mine.

I don’t currently celebrate “Halloween” either.

You will if you ever have kids, trust me.

What? Are YOU a pagan? If not, why do you keep bringing that up? The day doesn’t stand for a pagan holiday for most of the living human beings on this planet today so what are you talking about?

You’re the one who brought it up, you idiot.

And if you’re so concerned about “most of the living beings on the planet” I’d like to point out that there are about 2 billion Christians (although each sect thinks every other is wrong and hellbound…) out of a population of over 6 billions.

That hardly qualifies as “most.”

How many active pagans are there in America right now? When was the last time you ran across even 50 real Pagans standing next to each other?

I have yet to run across 50 real Christians, so I’m not holding out for pagans.
[/quote]

None of this explains why someone would be “morally correct” in celebrating a holiday with a mass religious meaning but never acknowledge it. You have even stated that you do NOT do this with your kids as you don’t force them to be atheist…so what are you arguing for?

You aren’t even the focus of what we are discussing but have taken it upon yourself to defend every other atheist who might not do the same…for what? All you’ve done is complain about how I type on the forum. Feeling threatened? Feeling insecure?

76

[quote]Professor X wrote:
That was cute. Let me ask you…if someone were to list some of the better positive contributors on this discussion forum who were not being paid, between us, who would make the list?[/quote]

How is that relevant in any way to whether non-religious people should celebrate Christmas or not?

But just between us, if your contributions are so great, why aren’t you getting paid for them?

…so? Is there a point to this? You’re a good clinical worker and some people appreciate your advice. I can make the very same claims. To reiterate: so?

I guess you’ve given up even pretending you once had a point in this discussion then…

77

[quote]Professor X wrote:
None of this explains why someone would be “morally correct” in celebrating a holiday with a mass religious meaning but never acknowledge it.[/quote]

It’s called honesty. You can look it up, it’s listed a few pages before hypocrisy.

Explain what’s “morally correct” about acknowledging a meaning in which you don’t believe. Although I’d be surprised if you can find anyone who’s unaware of the religious meaning of the holiday for Christians. But even if you could, that in no way prevents them from celebrating (or not) as they see fit on that day.

Must I quote you your own words a third time?

I’m arguing that your view that it makes no sense for an atheist to celebrate Christmas; that it makes them hypocrites who want cake and gifts; is wrong.

If atheists celebrated Christmas with full religious trappings and did the whole “Midnight Mass” thing and had nativity scenes on their front yard, you might have a leg to stand on. As they don’t (at least, not the ones I know) celebrate it that way, you don’t. You’re big on this acknowledging thing, why don’t you acknowledge this?

I think people should have the right to celebrate any occasion as they see fit in their own homes and not be publicly judged for it.

They’d be less complaining about how you type if you were able to remember what you type from one posting to the next.

Calling you insecure really hits a nerve, doesn’t it?

78

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
That was cute. Let me ask you…if someone were to list some of the better positive contributors on this discussion forum who were not being paid, between us, who would make the list?

How is that relevant in any way to whether non-religious people should celebrate Christmas or not?

But just between us, if your contributions are so great, why aren’t you getting paid for them?[/quote]

If your discussion of how I perform in eyes of God or in my daily life had nothing to do with this discussion, why did YOU bring it up?

79

[quote]Professor X wrote:
If your discussion of how I perform in eyes of God or in my daily life had nothing to do with this discussion, why did YOU bring it up?[/quote]

I was questioning the merit of you defending what you believe is a religious holiday against immoral celebration, when very little of the rest of the religion (the most important and difficult part) apparently interests you at all.

Like I stated previously, you are quite the zealot when it comes time to pass judgment on the actions of others, but no so much when it comes to putting the teachings of Christ in practice.

We’re retreading the same crap over and over. I’ll let you go back and read the answers I already gave and that, mental goldfish that you are, have already forgotten.

I doubt anyone else is still bothering with this thread, and I think I’ll join them.

80

I’m still reading this thread. I’ve got to say, the whole thread got derailed when Professor X implied that non-religious people/atheists SHOULD NOT observe Christmas in their secular way.

That was quite a bold statement to make and I agree with pookie’s response. Again, as a frame of reference I’m a non-religious Jew (although I am fairly educated about Judaic customs/traditions) and I don’t celebrate Christmas. But it’s clear that Christmas has evolved beyond the religious sphere and has become largely a celebration for all to partake in, in their own ways. If pookie or anyone else wants to celebrate Christmas in a secular way, to enjoy being with friends and family with a ridiculous amount of food and some time off of work, what’s wrong with that?

I think Professor X might have been going on about religion-hating atheistic zealots, and he doesn’t like it when they get enjoyment from a holiday that belongs to ‘his’ group… but that’s not the point.

As was said earlier in this thread by pookie, the entire premise of this thread is beyond absurd.