Christmas Only for the Religious?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]B.b. in stress! wrote:
cmon people, lets get back on track here

ive started this same exact thread in another forum and many people say that it was a pagan holiday and the three wise men gave baby Jesus presents, hence the gift giving. Also, a good point was made: CHRISTmas. However, someone said that its too commercialized to be a holiday.[/quote]

Well, to me it is only pagan if you give worship to the pagan images, etc. Mere usage of typically pagan rituals, symbols, and so forth means nothing unless the individual puts them on a religious footing with Christian rites. And even if they do, that is their business.

Just because I watch ‘Clash of the Titans’ doesn’t mean that I am suddenly a devoted worshipper of Greek gods or less of a believer in the Christian God.

Plus, there absolutely nothing abnormal about cultures fusing old traditions with new religions that they adopt - that has no impact on the validity of the new religion. Old dates, old habits and customs - all get merged into the adoption of new religious practices, and that doesn’t make the new religion adopted any less legitimate.

Reason I mention that is that there is always some self-impressed dandy who always wants to interject about Christmas “it is really based on Saturnalia!!”, as if to say that somehow, therefore, Christmas really doesn’t have the religious significance it purports to. And that is hogwash, of course, for the reasons stated.

Is Christmas too commercialized? Probably - but what isn’t? I know grown men who spend a ton of cash yearly on video game systems. We all want stuff, and and are addicted to ‘stuff’ - and our holidays are going to reflect that.

22

Just celebrate Festivus.

23

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Just celebrate Festivus.[/quote]

Actually, with the feats of strength and the airing of grievances…isn’t every day here on T-Nation Festivus?

24

Having pagan symbols in your home means you worship false idols.

25

The same reasoning applies to non-religious people celebrating Christmas. You can keep the various traditions because they’re enjoyable and fun, especially with kids, and celebrate with friends and family. The winter solstice has been celebrated by various civilizations for at least 12,000 years. I see no reason to stop now. A short break during the long winter months is most welcome.

We also get days off work specially for this occasion. Do people really expect atheists, agnostics and people of various other faiths to stay at home and watch TV? The whole premise of this thread is completely ridiculous.

26

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You could simply call it “…Mas” where the “christ” is silent.[/quote]

Good thing for me that in French we call it “Noël.”

27

[quote]pookie wrote:

The same reasoning applies to non-religious people celebrating Christmas. You can keep the various traditions because they’re enjoyable and fun, especially with kids, and celebrate with friends and family. The winter solstice has been celebrated by various civilizations for at least 12,000 years. I see no reason to stop now. A short break during the long winter months is most welcome.

We also get days off work specially for this occasion. Do people really expect atheists, agnostics and people of various other faiths to stay at home and watch TV? The whole premise of this thread is completely ridiculous.[/quote]

I have no real objection to anyone celebrating Christmas or the equivalent of the Winter Holidays. Only thing that matters to me is how I celebrate it. And if people of many faiths/denomincations and varying intensity of faiths/denominations come together in peace and goodwill toward men, appreciation of family and loved ones, and generosity, why would myself or anyone else complain?

Again, I consider myself a Christian, but I don’t consider Christianity to be a country club.

28

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You could simply call it “…Mas” where the “christ” is silent.

Good thing for me that in French we call it “No?l.”
[/quote]

And “Navidad” in Spanish…

29

[quote]Professor X wrote:
pookie wrote:

If you really want to test that, try telling your parents you’re an atheist.

That would never happen. Based on what they’ve taught, what I have experienced in my own life, and how that leads to the beliefs I do have, there is no way I could be “atheist”. They are well aware, however, that I am not as “religious” as they are in terms of how they act even though I pray constantly and truly believe in a higher power. I guess there is something to be said for looking at how someone lives their life rather than focusing on how much they simply aren’t like you.

After having written that…I suppose I could take those same words to heart as far as others.[/quote]

Very insightful post.

peace

30

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
And if people of many faiths/denomincations and varying intensity of faiths/denominations come together in peace and goodwill toward men, appreciation of family and loved ones, and generosity, why would myself or anyone else complain?[/quote]

Well that’s what I thought too, but apparently some people feel their Christmas is somehow diminished if others choose to celebrate it differently than they do.

31

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Yes, it would be a weekend…with family visiting. Why the need for the “Christmas get up” if this is simply an atheistic homecoming? [/quote]

Why the need for all the get up for Thanksgiving or any other holiday? Christmas is a religious holiday to many but it’s still a major cultural holiday to the rest of us. Why did so many pagan holidays and traditions continue even when society was absolutely dominated by Christianity? It’s because they had become part of the cultural traditions. As has been pointed out, Christians borrowed a great deal of from other religions and added some of their own on top. Atheists really aren’t borrowing much more from them than the name and maybe some hokey music, so what’s really the problem?

32

[quote]etaco wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Yes, it would be a weekend…with family visiting. Why the need for the “Christmas get up” if this is simply an atheistic homecoming?

Why the need for all the get up for Thanksgiving or any other holiday? Christmas is a religious holiday to many but it’s still a major cultural holiday to the rest of us. Why did so many pagan holidays and traditions continue even when society was absolutely dominated by Christianity? It’s because they had become part of the cultural traditions. As has been pointed out, Christians borrowed a great deal of from other religions and added some of their own on top. Atheists really aren’t borrowing much more from them than the name and maybe some hokey music, so what’s really the problem?
[/quote]

i just think that christians were responsible for christmas.

33

[quote]B.b. in stress! wrote:
etaco wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Yes, it would be a weekend…with family visiting. Why the need for the “Christmas get up” if this is simply an atheistic homecoming?

Why the need for all the get up for Thanksgiving or any other holiday? Christmas is a religious holiday to many but it’s still a major cultural holiday to the rest of us. Why did so many pagan holidays and traditions continue even when society was absolutely dominated by Christianity? It’s because they had become part of the cultural traditions. As has been pointed out, Christians borrowed a great deal of from other religions and added some of their own on top. Atheists really aren’t borrowing much more from them than the name and maybe some hokey music, so what’s really the problem?

i just think that christians were responsible for christmas.[/quote]

It isn’t even just that. With some of the posts we get here at times with what seems to be not only all out hatred for anything “Christian”, but an attempt to degrade even the basic concept of God and of anyone who believes in ‘him’, it seems highly hypocritical to then take part in a holiday celebrated in MAJORITY by that religion.

We can discuss why the 25th was chosen until we are blue in the face, but that doesn’t erase the fact that most of these guys are NOT celebrating any pagan holiday whether that be “festivus” or anything else. They are celebrating CHRISTMAS while ignoring the root of it and while also degrading those who actually do look at it from a perspective of religion.

As another poster pointed out, this isn’t much different than blindly celebrating Halloween as a Christian. At least be truthful as to what that holiday represents if you are going to play dress up and acknowledge it…or don’t take part.

If so many posts weren’t composed of so much bile towards the idea of religion, I doubt this topic would even be discussed here.

Mind you, I am well aware of “steveo’s” posting history and the stupidity behind it. I am simply speaking of being true to yourself while respecting the beliefs of others. There doesn’t seem to be much of that at all.

I am also speaking of how children may be raised in households that do this but ignore the root of it. I also explained my own experiences since “etaco” seems to not understand what the debate is about…

For the record, I don’t think I have ever written any post here with any type of degradation for those who choose to not believe in God simply because they don’t.

34

[quote]Professor X wrote:
We can discuss why the 25th was chosen until we are blue in the face, but that doesn’t erase the fact that most of these guys are NOT celebrating any pagan holiday whether that be “festivus” or anything else.[/quote]

In most American and Canadian (and probably Mexican too…) families, celebrating Christmas is first and foremost a family tradition. It can have religious meaning, or not, but the celebrations don’t require it. I don’t understand why people get so upset that others enjoy getting together with friends and family to spend some good time together.

We could debate the roots of that celebration for quite a long time, since it predates Christianity and spans countless civilizations.

The degradation you mention, is it from the fact of celebrating Christmas while ignoring the Christian component, or is it some separate action? Because I fail to see what’s degrading about people celebrating non-religious Christmas. It doesn’t take anything away from the significance Christmas has for Christians. I don’t have any religious imagery in my decorations; no angels, no nativity scene, etc.

I know what those symbols represent for believers and I avoid them specifically because I know it might offend or raise questions for those who are believers.

Don’t take part? This part is nuts. Should I turn down every invitation from friends and family? Should I refuse every gift? Tell my kids they’re not getting anything because Christmas doesn’t exist?

Don’t take part… come on, be serious. We’re atheists, not hermits or recluse. Sheesh.

It might be beneficial for children to ignore the roots (well, the ones you choose to claim as THE root) of the celebration. They can find out by themselves and make up their own mind when they become curious about it.

You never see children with beliefs differing from those of their parents (unless their parents are of differing faiths) simply because children aren’t mentally able to critically analyze and accept/reject what is told to them.

It’s not that they do not think - my daughter this year asked us why Santa doesn’t bring toys to kids who are poor - it’s just that they haven’t the experience or the tools necessary to differentiate fantasy from reality.

“it makes no sense for someone to claim to be an atheist but then turn around and celebrate a holiday based in religion. It is hypocritical and implies someone wants their cake and eat it too. It leads to kids being raised not knowing what many of those symbols represent.”

Let me recap: Atheists (who celebrate at Christmas) have no sense; they’re hypocrites and they’re not raising their kids right.

I think that fits the bill as far as degradation is concerned.

I’m sure you said all that in “The Spirit of Christmas” though, so I still love you.

35

[quote]pookie wrote:

The degradation you mention, is it from the fact of celebrating Christmas while ignoring the Christian component, or is it some separate action? Because I fail to see what’s degrading about people celebrating non-religious Christmas. It doesn’t take anything away from the significance Christmas has for Christians. I don’t have any religious imagery in my decorations; no angels, no nativity scene, etc.[/quote]

The degradation I am writing about can be seen in any of the several ridiculous threads started by steveo. Most posters weren’t just attacking him. They were making that the opportunity to attack an entire religion. We aren’t talking about degradation by simply celebrating.

I think I have made it pretty clear what I am speaking of as far as that is concerned.

[quote]

Don’t take part? This part is nuts. Should I turn down every invitation from friends and family? Should I refuse every gift? Tell my kids they’re not getting anything because Christmas doesn’t exist?

Don’t take part… come on, be serious. We’re atheists, not hermits or recluse. Sheesh.[/quote]

Are you reading my posts? Didn’t I write above that I was allowed to celebrate Halloween but was very informed from an early age what it really meant? I swear I believe I wrote that somewhere.

You are picking fights that aren’t even present. All I am stating is ACKNOWLEDGING the roots of it, especially when children are involved instead of celebrating it blindly along with respecting the beliefs of others. You are the one making up arguments beyond that. I suppose that is simply easier than admitting I may have a point.

36

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You are picking fights that aren’t even present. All I am stating is ACKNOWLEDGING the roots of it, especially when children are involved instead of celebrating it blindly along with respecting the beliefs of others.[/quote]

When you celebrate it, do you acknowledge that the celebration existed long before Christianity decided to integrate it to their dogmas? Do you explain the Winter solstice and the signification it had to multiple early civilizations?

Those roots are just as real as any others. The winter solstice is actually a real event that occurs every year. It’s a great way to get kids interested in astronomy to boot.

I really doubt that you go on an historical expos&ecaute; about the origins and symbolisms of every celebration you have with your family, beyond whatever religious significance got tacked on to it when the Church decided to integrate yet another pagan celebration in an effort to get more converts.

I mean, you wouldn’t keep that truth from kids, now, would you?

It’s really easy to label everyone else as hypocrites.

37

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You are picking fights that aren’t even present. All I am stating is ACKNOWLEDGING the roots of it, especially when children are involved instead of celebrating it blindly along with respecting the beliefs of others.

When you celebrate it, do you acknowledge that the celebration existed long before Christianity decided to integrate it to their dogmas? Do you explain the Winter solstice and the signification it had to multiple early civilizations?

Those roots are just as real as any others. The winter solstice is actually a real event that occurs every year. It’s a great way to get kids interested in astronomy to boot.

I really doubt that you go on an historical expos&ecaute; about the origins and symbolisms of every celebration you have with your family, beyond whatever religious significance got tacked on to it when the Church decided to integrate yet another pagan celebration in an effort to get more converts.

I mean, you wouldn’t keep that truth from kids, now, would you?

It’s really easy to label everyone else as hypocrites.[/quote]

My dad was a history teacher as well as a preacher. Trust me, I was well taught on the roots of most of this stuff before I hit the 5th grade. Yes, I do acknowledge that the date was set mostly for the purpose of helping the transition of many into Christianity. That is nothing new to me…which still brings me back to the point I was making.

If you make that known in your family and don’t degrade religion in front of your kids, then you aren’t the focus of what I am discussing.

38

[quote]B.b. in stress! wrote:
should christmas only be celebrated by religious people, knowing that it is when jesus christ was born, or is it a holiday for everyone?

it was a thought that wondered in my mind prior to christmas.[/quote]

It wasn’t when Jesus Christ was born. Its a pagan holiday renamed when the Romans converted to Christianity.

Its much more a cultural holiday than religious, for anyone who is serious enough to research it.

39

[quote]Professor X wrote:
If you make that known in your family and don’t degrade religion in front of your kids, then you aren’t the focus of what I am discussing.[/quote]

I’ve got a better idea, why don’t you mind your own life and let others to theirs? People don’t need your approval, nor that of any other Christian, to celebrate; their families certainly don’t need your dime-store morals and if you want to raise kids, I suggest you start by having your own.

Even better, you could try and emulate Jesus’s attitude towards others. You know, love, compassion, tolerance, forgiveness. I know it’s a very unchristian-like thing to do, but there might be less hostility towards Christianity if it wasn’t composed at 90% of sanctimonious, self-righteous arrogant assholes who figure they have a right to pass judgment - and a duty to comment on it publicly - on everyone’s lives and choices.

40

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If you make that known in your family and don’t degrade religion in front of your kids, then you aren’t the focus of what I am discussing.

I’ve got a better idea, why don’t you mind your own life and let others to theirs? People don’t need your approval, nor that of any other Christian, to celebrate; their families certainly don’t need your dime-store morals and if you want to raise kids, I suggest you start by having your own.

Even better, you could try and emulate Jesus’s attitude towards others. You know, love, compassion, tolerance, forgiveness. I know it’s a very unchristian-like thing to do, but there might be less hostility towards Christianity if it wasn’t composed at 90% of sanctimonious, self-righteous arrogant assholes who figure they have a right to pass judgment - and a duty to comment on it publicly - on everyone’s lives and choices.
[/quote]

Didn’t you just judge me? Why are you worried about how I need to live or what I need to do? You can give it but get offended if it comes back?