Christians of T-Nation

StephenD · October 16, 2008, 9:16pm

[quote]Kruiser wrote:
I’m currently an agnostic like everyone else. I do plan to be as Christian as possible by the time I reach my death bed though. The great thing about choosing Christianity is that you can have fun doing anything you want all your life.

Then you repent right before you die and get this: They have to take you in! Yup. Rape, rob and pillage until you reach a ripe, old age and then take Jesus Christ into your heart. Poof! Off you go to everlasting rapture!

Sign me UP![/quote]

Your very wrong in your current thinking.

You cant plan to be a christian

DoubleDuce · October 16, 2008, 9:17pm

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Copy and pasted from Wikipedia on Alexander the Great:
[…]

Apparently you cannot even comprehend what your citation implies.

Since I find no joy nor use in schooling people over the internet, I don’t see why I should argue with you here.

You desperately want to believe- so go ahead, I can live with that. If at one point you are ready to ask questions, you’re welcome.
[/quote]

Those are all verifiable facts. There are no first hand accounts. All there are is about 5 documents based at least some part on first hand accounts that admittedly tell very different stories, the earliest being about 400 years after the fact.

Not to mention your only citation being yourself and offering no evidence of anything other than having a very closed mind.

Yes, there are very broad general things about him that can be seen as results in today’s world. However, talking about individual battles, his personal character, and the general story of his life, that get written into text books, have very little evidence or reliable documentation to support them.

jbumgarner · October 16, 2008, 9:18pm

[quote]RSGZ wrote:

Look, fair enough and I agree that point may not be correct, but did you click the link following that quote? I just pulled 2 examples of what seemed like 100 of them.

I’m also very willing to bet that while your bible may not have that particular quote mixed up, there are many versions out there that do. I have before compared and found inconsistencies while using one of my old bibles as a reference.

People living for hundreds of years(!), parting whole oceans and such is just too much to believe and any book trying to tell me that is fact along with a nice bout of sexism loses all credibility to me.[/quote]

I admit that I did not click on your link. The internet nanny here at work (I’m on a break while I write this) won’t allow “Organized Religions” even though you and I know that site is not a religion.

What I suggest to you is this: you have read the side that says there are inconsistancies in the Bible (and you apparently believe them), why not get an opinion on the other side (like from someone that believes that the Bible is the complete and ir-refutable word of God) from someone that is not emotionally charged over this?

After all, a healthy debate hears both sides equally and then makes an informed decision as to what to believe. You stated earlier that you were Catholic for many years, so why not talk to someone non-Catholic?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

I agree that there are inconsistencies in English versions and there are definitely times when the translator has to make choices.

[/quote]

Good point DD. That’s why I listed the translation. Unless one can read the original texts, some of the subtleties of the original languages are lost. Just as an example, the original Greek used throughout the New Testament had something like 4 different words for the English word “love”.

StephenD · October 16, 2008, 9:22pm

[quote]rainjack wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
I never said man was created by evolution, and that was not my point in that post. That fact is that denying evolution itself (which we can clearly see it happening around us in life) and saying that the idea of a supreme invisible being in the sky is more realistic is just stupid.

Then you were too quick to jump in, because the guy you were so excited to make fun of was arguing against evolution being the creation of man.

Bible = something written by men and manipulated by men for thousands of years. Evolution itself, is a fact. Maybe not of how we came about, but in life around us.

Show me where this has been disputed?

Like I said, you jumped in too quick. And in the process created a straw man.

Kudos.

Evolution is a theory(that has been proven on many occasions) independant of athiesm and any religious beliefs. Don’t mix the 2 since religions are based on belief and not fact.

Evolution yes. Evolution as the beginning of man - only a theory. Belief in a theory as fact is the same as religion.

Dude - if you want to bash Christianity, or any religion for that matter - grow a nut and just come out and do it.

You are not smart enough to effectively hide behind science.

[/quote]

x2

DoubleDuce · October 16, 2008, 9:38pm

[quote]jbumgarner wrote:
RSGZ wrote:

Look, fair enough and I agree that point may not be correct, but did you click the link following that quote? I just pulled 2 examples of what seemed like 100 of them.

I’m also very willing to bet that while your bible may not have that particular quote mixed up, there are many versions out there that do. I have before compared and found inconsistencies while using one of my old bibles as a reference.

People living for hundreds of years(!), parting whole oceans and such is just too much to believe and any book trying to tell me that is fact along with a nice bout of sexism loses all credibility to me.

I admit that I did not click on your link. The internet nanny here at work (I’m on a break while I write this) won’t allow “Organized Religions” even though you and I know that site is not a religion.

What I suggest to you is this: you have read the side that says there are inconsistancies in the Bible (and you apparently believe them), why not get an opinion on the other side (like from someone that believes that the Bible is the complete and ir-refutable word of God) from someone that is not emotionally charged over this?

After all, a healthy debate hears both sides equally and then makes an informed decision as to what to believe. You stated earlier that you were Catholic for many years, so why not talk to someone non-Catholic?

DoubleDuce wrote:

I agree that there are inconsistencies in English versions and there are definitely times when the translator has to make choices.

Good point DD. That’s why I listed the translation. Unless one can read the original texts, some of the subtleties of the original languages are lost. Just as an example, the original Greek used throughout the New Testament had something like 4 different words for the English word “love”.
[/quote]

Pretty much English sucks as a poetic language.

Like the love thing. Places where words like agape are used in the original text many times losses the real meaning of the original.

For example it the text were to say ““agape” your neighbor” it would probably more fully mean choosing and working to care for you neighbor. And all we get is the general word “love”.

That is one of the weird things about language. There are literally some things that do not translate, that you would have to learn the original language to effectively read and understand. Including things like the writing customs of the day.

The fact that the Bible remains as amazingly effective and intelligible 1000s of years later, through translation, and across cultures is nothing short of amazing.

If you get a good study Bible they generally will try to explain customs and reasons for things written the way they are as well as different ways to translate a given passage.

StephenD · October 16, 2008, 9:39pm

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Why the hatred? Were you offended? Were you forced to click on this thread? What is it about the OP that gets you so upset?

Great job.

Truthfully- because I don’t understand it. I just don’t understand.

You were here a few years ago when the rash of threads came up- “Jesus saved me”, “God loves me” whatever the fuck else it was.

No one else does this shit. No one. You don’t see “Jews for weightlifting” threads. You don’t see “Who prays to the east between sets?” You don’t see “Convert to Buddism or burn!” You don’t see “Atheists for protein powder”.

You don’t see it. Why is it that superchristians constantly feel the need to advertise their faith, which inevitably turns into pushing it down people’s throats?

There is nothing more that I hate than people trying to push their religious views down my throat. I am Catholic (not an atheist), and a sometimes dogmatic one at that even though it goes against my rational side. Do I advertise this in every thread? Do I bring up the Vatican? No. Never.

That’s the reason that I went after that cunt JpBear until she left- don’t push your shit on me, and don’t tell me your religion is more right than mine. Don’t you dare fucking tell me that me and the pope will be playing cards in hell because I don’t believe in batshit christianity.

This conversation always ends up being the same thing- a repent or die thread. Sometimes it will lead into abortion or stem cells, but more often its people spewing undeducated delcarations about whatever faith they subscribe too, and telling others their wrong.

I don’t hate christians, or christianity. It’s kind of like MMA though- I respect the fighters but hate the people that follow it and talk about it nonstop as if they have some inside track on what’s going on. Same thing with religion.

Now, excuse me, I’m going to start a thread… probably called “How do Catholics who have some issues with tenets of the Church mix the use of German Micronized Creatine with steroids, and whether one is worth taking while taking the other even if the Pope says supplements are bad.”

See you later.[/quote]

hate to repeat myself but your a prick

StephenD · October 16, 2008, 9:50pm

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
rainjack wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
I guess that those 20 odd years I was considered Catholic, reading the bible and going to church don’t count. Nice to see you agree with me that it seems he hasn’t read the bible though.

I guess not, since you are about as ignorant and lazy as a God hater can be.

Judging from your level of biblical incompetence, I don’t think you have the mental faculties to pass any judgment on anyone, so no - I don’t agree with you - especially since DD schooled you right after I did.

Oh great - lets bring in the personal attacks, again.

We are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs, and I think it interesting to talk about them, even if it does get a little heated.

You can think what you like of my intelligence, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this, because I actually side with a lot of other things you have to say in unrelated topics. [/quote]

nice back down fuckin bitch

im relly getting sick of looking at your posts in this thread your clueless.

now be a nice boy and piss off:)

RSGZ · October 16, 2008, 10:07pm

[quote]StephenD wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
rainjack wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
I guess that those 20 odd years I was considered Catholic, reading the bible and going to church don’t count. Nice to see you agree with me that it seems he hasn’t read the bible though.

I guess not, since you are about as ignorant and lazy as a God hater can be.

Judging from your level of biblical incompetence, I don’t think you have the mental faculties to pass any judgment on anyone, so no - I don’t agree with you - especially since DD schooled you right after I did.

Oh great - lets bring in the personal attacks, again.

We are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs, and I think it interesting to talk about them, even if it does get a little heated.

You can think what you like of my intelligence, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this, because I actually side with a lot of other things you have to say in unrelated topics.

nice back down fuckin bitch

im relly getting sick of looking at your posts in this thread your clueless.

now be a nice boy and piss off:)[/quote]

Thanks for your input, fuckhead.

PRCalDude · October 16, 2008, 10:24pm

[quote]RSGZ wrote:
StephenD wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
rainjack wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
I guess that those 20 odd years I was considered Catholic, reading the bible and going to church don’t count. Nice to see you agree with me that it seems he hasn’t read the bible though.

I guess not, since you are about as ignorant and lazy as a God hater can be.

Judging from your level of biblical incompetence, I don’t think you have the mental faculties to pass any judgment on anyone, so no - I don’t agree with you - especially since DD schooled you right after I did.

Oh great - lets bring in the personal attacks, again.

We are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs, and I think it interesting to talk about them, even if it does get a little heated.

You can think what you like of my intelligence, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this, because I actually side with a lot of other things you have to say in unrelated topics.

nice back down fuckin bitch

im relly getting sick of looking at your posts in this thread your clueless.

now be a nice boy and piss off:)

Thanks for your input, fuckhead.[/quote]

…So, you wanna join the religion of Christianity?

katzenjammer · October 16, 2008, 10:25pm

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

Pretty much English sucks as a poetic language.

Like the love thing. Places where words like agape are used in the original text many times losses the real meaning of the original.

For example it the text were to say ““agape” your neighbor” it would probably more fully mean choosing and working to care for you neighbor. And all we get is the general word “love”.

[/quote]

A few responses DD…my opinion only, of course!

Obviously, it’s incredibly difficult to compare languages in any satisfactory way, but English is characterized by a number of things that are relevant here:

English possess one the largest vocabularies in the world - far, far more than Homeric/classical/new testament Greek.

Your agape/eros example is correct, but generally the problem is the other way around wrt English generally and/or translation: for every concept/word in Greek, for example, there are many, many words that are approximate in English, but all with VERY different but related shades of meanings.

Also, because English is so idiomatic, there are a million ways to say in English what appears to be roughly the same thing - but again, each with a slight shade of meaning difference.

These “shades of meaning” are part of what makes English poetry so richly suggestive.

Compared with other languages, there are also very few rules for “how” things can be said, making English incredibly flexible as a medium.

In my opinion, these attributes, among many others, make English one of the most richly expressive creations man has ever known.

Also in my opinion, for many reasons, including the above and other “vulgar” (as they are termed) aspects of the language, English is one of the great poetic languages (along with the Gaelic languages and Russian) and has one of the richest traditions.

Finally, by definition, no poetry translates - when you have a “translated” poem from another language, what’s missing is precisely the poetry. Frost used this as a definition, in fact, for what poetry is: it’s the thing that’s missing in translated poetry. Or something like that.

~katz

katzenjammer · October 16, 2008, 10:28pm

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

…So, you wanna join the religion of Christianity?
[/quote]

LOL!

DoubleDuce · October 16, 2008, 10:28pm

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
StephenD wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
rainjack wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
I guess that those 20 odd years I was considered Catholic, reading the bible and going to church don’t count. Nice to see you agree with me that it seems he hasn’t read the bible though.

I guess not, since you are about as ignorant and lazy as a God hater can be.

Judging from your level of biblical incompetence, I don’t think you have the mental faculties to pass any judgment on anyone, so no - I don’t agree with you - especially since DD schooled you right after I did.

Oh great - lets bring in the personal attacks, again.

We are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs, and I think it interesting to talk about them, even if it does get a little heated.

You can think what you like of my intelligence, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this, because I actually side with a lot of other things you have to say in unrelated topics.

nice back down fuckin bitch

im relly getting sick of looking at your posts in this thread your clueless.

now be a nice boy and piss off:)

Thanks for your input, fuckhead.

…So, you wanna join the religion of Christianity?
[/quote]

Is that the switch then bate method?

RSGZ · October 16, 2008, 10:36pm

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
…So, you wanna join the religion of Christianity?
[/quote]

Ha!

No thanks.

DoubleDuce · October 16, 2008, 10:36pm

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote: