Christians of T-Nation

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
185

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Jpmpac1 wrote:
Darwinian evolution has never produced the most basic facts to back up the theory. And that, my friend, is faith.

And yet it seems to be more factual than the Bible or the Qur’an.

It may not be right, but I highly doubt something as brilliantly complex as the earth was created in 7 days.

I agree.
http://www.opc.org/OS/html/V9/1c.html

Who really believes anything like this ^^. I’m sure they exist. Personally, I’ve never met a single theologian or priest who does.

Here’s a very small sampling of the wide variety of views of the subject within the Church: What the Early Church Believed: Creation and Genesis | Catholic Answers [/quote]

Most people who’ve studied under MG Kline find his view pretty compelling. But that’s the small number of ministers who’ve attended Westminster West.

I personally think it’s pointless to engage in a debate over evolution with atheists, because they first have to be won over into believing in the Biblical God before they’ll change their view of scientific data on the subject, since science can’t be religiously neutral.

You can argue all day about the scientific data and make no progress without first winning over the person towards Christian theism.

186

I hate religion, but I love Jesus Christ the Son of God who came in the flesh and took my sins upon the cross.

187

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Jpmpac1 wrote:
Darwinian evolution has never produced the most basic facts to back up the theory. And that, my friend, is faith.

And yet it seems to be more factual than the Bible or the Qur’an.

It may not be right, but I highly doubt something as brilliantly complex as the earth was created in 7 days.

I agree.
http://www.opc.org/OS/html/V9/1c.html

Who really believes anything like this ^^. I’m sure they exist. Personally, I’ve never met a single theologian or priest who does.

Here’s a very small sampling of the wide variety of views of the subject within the Church: What the Early Church Believed: Creation and Genesis | Catholic Answers

Most people who’ve studied under MG Kline find his view pretty compelling. But that’s the small number of ministers who’ve attended Westminster West.
[/quote]

By “this^^” I meant the literal view of the bible that you were responding to.

[quote]I personally think it’s pointless to engage in a debate over evolution with atheists, because they first have to be won over into believing in the Biblical God before they’ll change their view of scientific data on the subject, since science can’t be religiously neutral.

You can argue all day about the scientific data and make no progress without first winning over the person towards Christian theism.
[/quote]

Yes, all true; however, I do think it’s worthwhile to try to get people to see that science does have its own subjective underpinnings. The interesting thing is, scientists themselves readily agree that this is so.

Rather, it’s often our stereotyped view of science - as one that’s a purely objective affair - that gets in the way of a meaningful dialogue.

188

[quote]Yes, all true; however, I do think it’s worthwhile to try to get people to see that science does have its own subjective underpinnings. The interesting thing is, scientists themselves readily agree that this is so.

Rather, it’s often our stereotyped view of science - as one that’s a purely objective affair - that gets in the way of a meaningful dialogue.[/quote]

Well, no Christian on this thread has done so thus far. At the very least, we know micro-evolution is observable, but that says nothing about the existence or non-existence of the Christian God.

189

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Jpmpac1 wrote:
Darwinian evolution has never produced the most basic facts to back up the theory. And that, my friend, is faith.

And yet it seems to be more factual than the Bible or the Qur’an.

It may not be right, but I highly doubt something as brilliantly complex as the earth was created in 7 days.[/quote]

Not only the earth and everything on it but all the universe, including millions of stars, planets etc. It is easy to make assumptions on the nature of ‘God’ by applying human type constraints to His abilities which is what most people do who heap scorn on believers by citing such examples of ‘impossibilities’ (and am not saying you are doing this here).

God does not suffer the same constraints as us ‘humans’ there is no such a thing as ‘time’ for God who is an infinite being who could have created everything at the speed of thought if he so desired.

190

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Yes, all true; however, I do think it’s worthwhile to try to get people to see that science does have its own subjective underpinnings. The interesting thing is, scientists themselves readily agree that this is so.

Rather, it’s often our stereotyped view of science - as one that’s a purely objective affair - that gets in the way of a meaningful dialogue.

Well, no Christian on this thread has done so thus far. At the very least, we know micro-evolution is observable, but that says nothing about the existence or non-existence of the Christian God. [/quote]

There is much unnecessary mud slinging going on in this thread for no good reason, I’ve never seen such a cluster of dis-information and spite filled comments.

I think this whole question can be boiled down to two or three very simple scenarios:

A: You believe that we, the earth, planets etc was created by a superior being (aliens, god, whatever).

B: You believe that the earth and universe appeared out of nothingness and has evolved into what we have today over a period of (insert the number of years that makes this theory feel more plausible).

C: You don’t know and don’t really care.

I am Catholic and a believer and felt that RJ’s post earlier in this thread summed up my feelings quite well. But the bottom line is I know what I believe and WHY I believe it, I am sure this not the case for most people posting here (and I am not being patronising).

For those who come on here simply to write snide one line comments or posts against those who do believe all I would ask is that you take a moment and actually include what your own beliefs are and why you hold them.

191

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Jpmpac1 wrote:
Darwinian evolution has never produced the most basic facts to back up the theory. And that, my friend, is faith.

(And yet it seems to be more factual than the Bible or the Qur’an.

It may not be right, but I highly doubt something as brilliantly complex as the earth was created in 7 days.)[/quote]

Evolution more factual than intelligent design? Not really - if there is no evidence, how then can macroevolution be true or even seem to be? Can’t have it both ways. Belief in Darwinian evolution requires a level of blind faith that I simply do not possess.

I’m siding with Joe Friday on this, and sticking to the facts. Also, I never said the Koran is factual…you’re on your own there. But I am pleased to see that we agree the earth, indeed the entire universe and everything in it, is magnificently complex.

Consider the immense complexity of a single-celled organism such as trichomonas. That tiny little pest demonstrates almost singlehandedly that macroevolution cannot have taken place, and that a Creator had to have formed life.

192

Agreed.

I may have gotten sucked into that myself. :wink:

It’s interesting that you’re Catholic in the birthplace of Presbyterianism.

193

My inclination is that when rational-thinking men and women have the veil lifted off their previously-held beliefs, that the facts become self-evident. Not to everyone, mind you, but to some, and that is sufficient.

If it’s understood that the sacred cow of Darwinism is in truth just an ethereal mental picture painted by a known anti-Christian (just ask Darwin’s wife), and add to that the reliable historicity of the new testament (especially), then minds and hearts CAN be changed.

Paul of Tarsus didn’t form friendships with the Athenians before he spoke with them, he wasn’t given much of a chance to! LOL! In short, there are more ways than one to communicate effectively. Personally, I’ve had much less success with friends on that regard than otherwise.

196

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Jpmpac1 wrote:
Darwinian evolution has never produced the most basic facts to back up the theory. And that, my friend, is faith.

And yet it seems to be more factual than the Bible or the Qur’an.

It may not be right, but I highly doubt something as brilliantly complex as the earth was created in 7 days.

Obviously you’re wrong. The Earth is about 3000 years old, was created by the magical fingers of a super being, the Bible was all true. Fuck Darwin, people obviously hunted dinosaurs.

Hell, fuck science. Let’s all get back to praying for the plague to go away instead of finding cures and shit. [/quote]

Again you are just adding nastiness to the discussion, do you actually have anything of substance to offer? Do you believe the earth and everything else in the universe appeared from nothingness? What do you believe?

197

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Makavali wrote:
The creation history is figuratively presented as an ordinary week…

That’s more like it.

For the record, I think there was a historical Adam. I agree with all of the claims in that paper. I’ve yet to read a better exegete on the subject, and Lee Iron’s Hebrew is superb. [/quote]

You ought to read James Jordan’s “Creation in Six Days” and Douglas Kelly’s “Creation and Change: Genesis 1.1 - 2.4 in the Light of Changing Scientific Paradigms.”

jpb

198

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Jpmpac1 wrote:
Darwinian evolution has never produced the most basic facts to back up the theory. And that, my friend, is faith.

And yet it seems to be more factual than the Bible or the Qur’an.

It may not be right, but I highly doubt something as brilliantly complex as the earth was created in 7 days.

Obviously you’re wrong. The Earth is about 3000 years old, was created by the magical fingers of a super being, the Bible was all true. Fuck Darwin, people obviously hunted dinosaurs.

Hell, fuck science. Let’s all get back to praying for the plague to go away instead of finding cures and shit. [/quote]

I think that whatever the source of your anger, it has little to do with anything anyone says on this forum.

199

[quote]Jpmpac1 wrote:
My inclination is that when rational-thinking men and women have the veil lifted off their previously-held beliefs, that the facts become self-evident. Not to everyone, mind you, but to some, and that is sufficient.

If it’s understood that the sacred cow of Darwinism is in truth just an ethereal mental picture painted by a known anti-Christian (just ask Darwin’s wife), and add to that the reliable historicity of the new testament (especially), then minds and hearts CAN be changed.

Paul of Tarsus didn’t form friendships with the Athenians before he spoke with them, he wasn’t given much of a chance to! LOL! In short, there are more ways than one to communicate effectively. Personally, I’ve had much less success with friends on that regard than otherwise.[/quote]

Here’s what I think: you and the OP are friends, and this entire thread is some sort of misguided bait-and-switch “evangelism” that’s done more harm than good. Heck, the OP hasn’t even bothered to post much beyond this thread. The unbelievers all see it for what it is, and it comes across very insincerely, and you’ve made no headway.

200

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Makavali wrote:
The creation history is figuratively presented as an ordinary week…

That’s more like it.

For the record, I think there was a historical Adam. I agree with all of the claims in that paper. I’ve yet to read a better exegete on the subject, and Lee Iron’s Hebrew is superb. [/quote]

First Homo Erectus?

201

[quote]JamFly wrote:
Again you are just adding nastiness to the discussion, do you actually have anything of substance to offer? Do you believe the earth and everything else in the universe appeared from nothingness? What do you believe?[/quote]

Not directed at me, but I think the Big Bang was Gods doing. I also subscribe to the theory of time being circular, with no beginning and no end.

What I find astounding about most religions (including my own) is the sheer arrogance. We aren’t God’s image.

202

…evolution isn’t about a constant upward cycle of physical improvement, but about random changes in DNA that allows for an increased survival rate…

203

Hubbard was on the right track. Invent a religion and watch the $$$ roll in.

Of course Christian beliefs are possible, just as scientological beliefs are possible but they are based on faith. Faith is accepting something without proof.

Obviously time is what gives religions credibilty. Unfortunately for those on the end of the Scientology gravy train people have access to science these days and are generally less gullible. Therefore they won’t get the same supporter base as the big 5.

204

[quote]AndyG wrote:
Faith is accepting something without proof.
[/quote]

All human beings do this. Even scientists when practicing science.

205

[quote]Makavali wrote:

What I find astounding about most religions (including my own) is the sheer arrogance. [/quote]

Well, humans are profoundly imperfect. So arrogance creeps in everywhere and in every time. I’m quite sure that religion has no monopoly on arrogance. I see far more arrogance in “atheists” than I do in the devote.

206

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

And the celtic cross predates Christianity’s arrival in Ireland.

I doubt this very much. Evidence?

I’ll tell you the same thing I told the other guy: Do your own research. It takes two minutes.

The Celtic cross has very unclear origins, but it is a symbol that predates Christianity’s arrival.[/quote]

I’m going to have to assume that you have no evidence. I can’t find any. A “sun cross” by the way, isn’t a cross. Just in case you were confusing the two.