Christianity and War

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
It depends on the level of magnification if history seems to repeat itself or not. Take the topic of this thread, christians at war. That’s a recurring theme. Still, every war with christians involved has been a unique historical incident with it’s own underlying causes.
I bet that we will see christians at war in the future, too.
[/quote]

As with any religion, if you look at religion from aspect of religion being a species, they will do what ever is necessary for survival including trying to destroy all that oppose them,

I got that from one of my coworkers a very pro evolutionist, anti-religion, type of person in one of our conversations in the lab.

And logically it makes perfect sense.

Even though as Christians we should be all love all the time, in this world that is not a feasible option. We need to protect our population also.

But I believe if we view every person for what they truly are an eternal soul it makes it easier to make the right decisions.

163

Do like the Ethiopians did to the Islamic courts union in Somalia: go in there kill a bunch of them, disrupt their activities, and then leave. Repeat as often as necessary. This “winning hearts and minds” business is nonsense. The “hearts and minds” have already been won by the Taliban. The Taliban would never exist were it not for “winning the hearts and minds” of the Pashtuns. Pakistan’s headed the same direction as Afghanistan, despite all of our support and encouragement of “democracy” in Pakistan.

Great. We agree. The problem is that the enemy is Islam, not “terrorists,” as if there were methodists running around waging global jihad campaigns in every country. We didn’t go to war with “blitzkrieg” in WWII, did we? We went to war with the Nazis. Unfortunately, Bush maintains the disastrous “religion of peace” crap and thinks that all religions are basically good.

[quote]
There are many cases in history of crushing an enemy to the point that he never rises again.[/quote]

Uh, yeah. But that usually involves ethnic cleansing. And that runs into just war problems. That said, I’m much more in favor of using the stick against the Muslims than the carrot. They seem to only respond to the stick, which is why they don’t mess with the Russians anymore.

Our approach, over the past 8 years, can more aptly described as “a stick for our friends and a carrot for our enemies,” I’m afraid.

164

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
However, comparing Bush to Obama is comparing suck to super-suck. [/quote]

I’d say it’s comparing serially super, couldn’t suck much worse, sucky to ?. Give him a change before you say that he is worse than GWB. I find it difficult to believe that anything can be worse than our current leader.

166

[quote]Christine wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
However, comparing Bush to Obama is comparing suck to super-suck.

I’d say it’s comparing serially super, couldn’t suck much worse, sucky to ?. Give him a change before you say that he is worse than GWB. I find it difficult to believe that anything can be worse than our current leader.[/quote]

Well, we’re talking about super-suck in a narrow sense here. I’m pretty much a one-issue voter, so Obama will likely be “super-suck” from my perspective. Had Bush succeeded in railroading the amnesty through, whatever Obama did would be moot as Ahmed the Pakistani Mujahid would be living right next door to me by now.

167

The more I think about it, the more I see no upside to the carrot. If “slaves of Allah” want to die in jihad per Surah 9:111, let’s facilitate it.

168

Every religion has its extremes. To say all Muslims are evil and want to kill everyone else is untrue. There will always be nut jobs in this world that twist a religion so far from its roots to justify their actions.

169

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Every religion has its extremes. To say all Muslims are evil and want to kill everyone else is untrue. [/quote]

If I have to have another of these conversations with a misguided Westerner, I think I’m going to drive the wrong way in traffic on the way home from work.

How much time have you spent studying the Qur’an, Hadith, and the history of interpretation of both?

170

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
Every religion has its extremes. To say all Muslims are evil and want to kill everyone else is untrue.

If I have to have another of these conversations with a misguided Westerner, I think I’m going to drive the wrong way in traffic on the way home from work.

How much time have you spent studying the Qur’an, Hadith, and the history of interpretation of both?[/quote]

You didn’t know everyone on T-Nation is an expert on everything.

171

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
Every religion has its extremes. To say all Muslims are evil and want to kill everyone else is untrue.

If I have to have another of these conversations with a misguided Westerner, I think I’m going to drive the wrong way in traffic on the way home from work.

How much time have you spent studying the Qur’an, Hadith, and the history of interpretation of both?[/quote]

To answer your question the only text I have studied in depth is the Bible, but studying an ancient text and actually seeing the way it is interpreted in the people that follow said text are two different things.

172

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
Every religion has its extremes. To say all Muslims are evil and want to kill everyone else is untrue.

If I have to have another of these conversations with a misguided Westerner, I think I’m going to drive the wrong way in traffic on the way home from work.

How much time have you spent studying the Qur’an, Hadith, and the history of interpretation of both?[/quote]

You’re obviously right, all Muslims are evil and want to kill everyone!

173

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
Every religion has its extremes. To say all Muslims are evil and want to kill everyone else is untrue.

If I have to have another of these conversations with a misguided Westerner, I think I’m going to drive the wrong way in traffic on the way home from work.

How much time have you spent studying the Qur’an, Hadith, and the history of interpretation of both?

To answer your question the only text I have studied in depth is the Bible, but studying an ancient text and actually seeing the way it is interpreted in the people that follow said text are two different things. [/quote]

The last part I agree with. The problem is, we see plenty of Muslims following the text, which advocates violence against non-believers in numerous places, most notably Surahs 9:5 and 9:29. Mohammed was a violent guy, and his behavior is an “excellent model of conduct” for Muslims according to Surah 33:21.

Are ALL Muslims going to wage jihad? No. But the problem is, their religion supports that behavior, and that’s precisely how Islam is spread.

175

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
Every religion has its extremes. To say all Muslims are evil and want to kill everyone else is untrue.

If I have to have another of these conversations with a misguided Westerner, I think I’m going to drive the wrong way in traffic on the way home from work.

How much time have you spent studying the Qur’an, Hadith, and the history of interpretation of both?

To answer your question the only text I have studied in depth is the Bible, but studying an ancient text and actually seeing the way it is interpreted in the people that follow said text are two different things.

The last part I agree with. The problem is, we see plenty of Muslims following the text, which advocates violence against non-believers in numerous places, most notably Surahs 9:5 and 9:29. Mohammed was a violent guy, and his behavior is an “excellent model of conduct” for Muslims according to Surah 33:21.

Are ALL Muslims going to wage jihad? No. But the problem is, their religion supports that behavior, and that’s precisely how Islam is spread.

[/quote]

My only problem with that statement is look at other religions such as Christianity. In the Old Testament the Israelites waged war against many other tribes. Then there were the Crusades and how many men were excommunicated and killed by the Catholic Church. We don’t condemn them why? Just because a man takes an inherently good religion and warps it to fit his agenda does not mean the religion it self is evil or destructive.

176

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
Every religion has its extremes. To say all Muslims are evil and want to kill everyone else is untrue.

If I have to have another of these conversations with a misguided Westerner, I think I’m going to drive the wrong way in traffic on the way home from work.

How much time have you spent studying the Qur’an, Hadith, and the history of interpretation of both?

To answer your question the only text I have studied in depth is the Bible, but studying an ancient text and actually seeing the way it is interpreted in the people that follow said text are two different things.

The last part I agree with. The problem is, we see plenty of Muslims following the text, which advocates violence against non-believers in numerous places, most notably Surahs 9:5 and 9:29. Mohammed was a violent guy, and his behavior is an “excellent model of conduct” for Muslims according to Surah 33:21.

Are ALL Muslims going to wage jihad? No. But the problem is, their religion supports that behavior, and that’s precisely how Islam is spread.

My only problem with that statement is look at other religions such as Christianity. In the Old Testament the Israelites waged war against many other tribes.
[/quote]

Fortunately, we have the New Testament, which obligates us to cherem (holy war) of a spiritual type. We also don’t have to sacrifice goats and sheep anymore, nor bring in a tenth of our grain, nor worship at a temple in Jerusalem, thanks to Jesus. It’s great, isn’t it?

Yes, there the Muslims were, co-existing in peace and harmony with the Jews and Christians in the Middle-East (and Spain!), having spread their religion through the powers of persuasion and goodwill towards non-Muslims since roughly 600 AD, when, out of the blue, Pope Gregory announced a crusade. The evil white Christian (triple-redundancy there!) Crusaders swept down out of the north upon these peaceful Muslims and began killing the men and carrying off the women and children as spoils of war and concubines. Alas, if only these unprovoked Crusades had never happened!

177

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
Every religion has its extremes. To say all Muslims are evil and want to kill everyone else is untrue.

If I have to have another of these conversations with a misguided Westerner, I think I’m going to drive the wrong way in traffic on the way home from work.

How much time have you spent studying the Qur’an, Hadith, and the history of interpretation of both?

To answer your question the only text I have studied in depth is the Bible, but studying an ancient text and actually seeing the way it is interpreted in the people that follow said text are two different things.

The last part I agree with. The problem is, we see plenty of Muslims following the text, which advocates violence against non-believers in numerous places, most notably Surahs 9:5 and 9:29. Mohammed was a violent guy, and his behavior is an “excellent model of conduct” for Muslims according to Surah 33:21.

Are ALL Muslims going to wage jihad? No. But the problem is, their religion supports that behavior, and that’s precisely how Islam is spread.

My only problem with that statement is look at other religions such as Christianity. In the Old Testament the Israelites waged war against many other tribes.

Fortunately, we have the New Testament, which obligates us to cherem (holy war) of a spiritual type. We also don’t have to sacrifice goats and sheep anymore, nor bring in a tenth of our grain, nor worship at a temple in Jerusalem, thanks to Jesus. It’s great, isn’t it?

Then there were the Crusades and how many men were excommunicated and killed by the Catholic Church. We don’t condemn them why? Just because a man takes an inherently good religion and warps it to fit his agenda does not mean the religion it self is evil or destructive.

Yes, there the Muslims were, co-existing in peace and harmony with the Jews and Christians in the Middle-East (and Spain!), having spread their religion through the powers of persuasion and goodwill towards non-Muslims since roughly 600 AD, when, out of the blue, Pope Gregory announced a crusade. The evil white Christian (triple-redundancy there!) Crusaders swept down out of the north upon these peaceful Muslims and began killing the men and carrying off the women and children as spoils of war and concubines. Alas, if only these unprovoked Crusades had never happened![/quote]

The Old Testament holds just as much water as the New Testament and I was using it as an example. Once again I was using the Crusades as an example. The point is people use religion to go to the extreme. The person/people that cause the bloodshed are evil not the religion.

179

[quote]pushharder wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:

…The Old Testament holds just as much water as the New Testament and I was using it as an example. Once again I was using the Crusades as an example. The point is people use religion to go to the extreme. The person/people that cause the bloodshed are evil not the religion.

I understand your point and I knew this would come up. I don’t need to speak for PR but I think his point is that War is inherent and the driving force deep within doctrinal Islam.

That is not the case with Christianity.[/quote]

Point taken, but war was a driving force in the Old Testament. My problem is; hoewver, every religion in the history of the world has been the cause of war so my thinking is it is not religion, but man that causes these wars. They simply use the ideologies to justify their wars.

180

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
every religion in the history of the world has been the cause of war so my thinking is it is not religion, but man that causes these wars. They simply use the ideologies to justify their wars. [/quote]

Is it the ruler that is influenced by the sage, the sage who influences others, or both?

Regardless, the common man usually needs something to cling too when asked to sacrifice for a cause he does not fully understand or is not one of his own.

In modern times he clings to loyalty, honor, nation, etc. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a religion, per se. Ideologies are tricky that way.