[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
The Old Testament holds just as much water as the New Testament and I was using it as an example.
[/quote]
No one is arguing that it doesn’t. I am arguing, according to Matthew 5:17-20, Luke 24:25-27 etc, that it has been fulfilled.
or
?
[quote]Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
I do not pretend to have all the answers.
Liar.[/quote]
There is a difference between being smarter than you and pretending to know it all.
I grant you that it would be hard to see the difference from your point of view.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
usmccds423 wrote:
The Old Testament holds just as much water as the New Testament and I was using it as an example.
No one is arguing that it doesn’t. I am arguing, according to Matthew 5:17-20, Luke 24:25-27 etc, that it has been fulfilled.
Once again I was using the Crusades as an example. The point is people use religion to go to the extreme. The person/people that cause the bloodshed are evil not the religion.
So there’s nothing wrong with various incitements to jihad warfare made by Muhammad, such as:
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
or
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
or
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
or
Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.
Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
? [/quote]
I believe there is a higher being controlling most aspects of life. That being said all religions have been created and influenced by man. The Bible, Quran, etc…were written by man.
You made your point what ever text you pulled the above from shows Islam is against the world, but the point is it is fallible. It was created by man. It may or may not have been inspired by Allah, God, or whomever.
Once again it is man that drives war not specifically religion. There are any number of possibilities perhaps the author of the above passages hated Jews or Christians and added the text. Maybe the author was beaten or his family killed because of his faith. We will never know, but I fail to see how Islam is based on war and hatred.
Man has always used war for their own agenda and religion has been used to justify said war. The religion is not inherently evil simply because evil men use it as their shield.
The fact that it was “created by man” is specious. All religious texts are ultimately written down “by man.” The issue is, what do those texts say and how are they understood?
The understanding of these religious texts, for the most part, governs the behavior of the people who subscribe to that religion. I hope I’m not saying anything controversial here. The Bible, (as it is understood), governs the behavior of Christians, the Qur’an, Hadith, and Sira govern the behavior of Muslims.
[quote]We will never know, but I fail to see how Islam is based on war and hatred.
[/quote]
Well, I don’t doubt that you fail to see it. I present facts and then they’re waved off by you in these generalized statements. The Qur’an either has meaning or it doesn’t. It’s either understood a certain way or it’s not.
It’s the same for any other book. I can’t pick up Moby Dick and say that it’s a book about computer science, can I? Do words mean things or not?
I guess you might be able to argue that Mohammed was really this peaceful guy like Jesus who went around helping everyone, and that later scribes corrupted the text to make it promote violence, but at the end of the day, that doesn’t matter. What does matter is how it is read and interpreted now.
Muslims maintain, in accordance with Surah 33:21, that Mohammed is an excellent model of conduct. According to historical events recorded in Muslim religious texts, Mohammed did a lot of things that non-Muslims view as “BAD” by any reasonable standard, including unprovoked ethnic cleansing, rape, pedophilia, theft, slavery and murder.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
You made your point what ever text you pulled the above from shows Islam is against the world, but the point is it is fallible. It was created by man. It may or may not have been inspired by Allah, God, or whomever.
The fact that it was “created by man” is specious. All religious texts are ultimately written down “by man.” The issue is, what do those texts say and how are they understood?
The understanding of these religious texts, for the most part, governs the behavior of the people who subscribe to that religion. I hope I’m not saying anything controversial here. The Bible, (as it is understood), governs the behavior of Christians, the Qur’an, Hadith, and Sira govern the behavior of Muslims.
We will never know, but I fail to see how Islam is based on war and hatred.
Well, I don’t doubt that you fail to see it. I present facts and then they’re waved off by you in these generalized statements. The Qur’an either has meaning or it doesn’t. It’s either understood a certain way or it’s not.
It’s the same for any other book. I can’t pick up Moby Dick and say that it’s a book about computer science, can I? Do words mean things or not?
I guess you might be able to argue that Mohammed was really this peaceful guy like Jesus who went around helping everyone, and that later scribes corrupted the text to make it promote violence, but at the end of the day, that doesn’t matter. What does matter is how it is read and interpreted now.
Muslims maintain, in accordance with Surah 33:21, that Mohammed is an excellent model of conduct. According to historical events recorded in Muslim religious texts, Mohammed did a lot of things that non-Muslims view as “BAD” by any reasonable standard, including unprovoked ethnic cleansing, rape, pedophilia, theft, slavery and murder.
Irrefutable post.[/quote]
Yes it is a good post, but how many people live their lives exactly as the Bible or Quran say they should? I believe most people use these books as a guide. They use the scriptures to live a morally based life that betters?
themselves and their people.
The vast majority of Muslims have never killed anyone. Maybe they are bad Muslims, but the point is the extreme followers are the ones that use the text as justifications for their kills. They may have never been intended to justify the death of others.
Words do have means, but interpretation is the key. We could both read the same words and yet come to very different conclusions on its means. Most religions do not deal in absolutes. Maybe I?m wrong and Islam does, but I believe there are too many peaceful Muslims for that to be the case.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
You made your point what ever text you pulled the above from shows Islam is against the world, but the point is it is fallible. It was created by man. It may or may not have been inspired by Allah, God, or whomever.
The fact that it was “created by man” is specious. All religious texts are ultimately written down “by man.” The issue is, what do those texts say and how are they understood?
The understanding of these religious texts, for the most part, governs the behavior of the people who subscribe to that religion. I hope I’m not saying anything controversial here. The Bible, (as it is understood), governs the behavior of Christians, the Qur’an, Hadith, and Sira govern the behavior of Muslims.
We will never know, but I fail to see how Islam is based on war and hatred.
Well, I don’t doubt that you fail to see it. I present facts and then they’re waved off by you in these generalized statements. The Qur’an either has meaning or it doesn’t. It’s either understood a certain way or it’s not.
It’s the same for any other book. I can’t pick up Moby Dick and say that it’s a book about computer science, can I? Do words mean things or not?
I guess you might be able to argue that Mohammed was really this peaceful guy like Jesus who went around helping everyone, and that later scribes corrupted the text to make it promote violence, but at the end of the day, that doesn’t matter. What does matter is how it is read and interpreted now.
Muslims maintain, in accordance with Surah 33:21, that Mohammed is an excellent model of conduct. According to historical events recorded in Muslim religious texts, Mohammed did a lot of things that non-Muslims view as “BAD” by any reasonable standard, including unprovoked ethnic cleansing, rape, pedophilia, theft, slavery and murder.
Irrefutable post.
Yes it is a good post, but how many people live their lives exactly as the Bible or Quran say they should? I believe most people use these books as a guide. They use the scriptures to live a morally based life that betters? themselves and their people.
The vast majority of Muslims have never killed anyone. Maybe they are bad Muslims, but the point is the extreme followers are the ones that use the text as justifications for their kills. They may have never been intended to justify the death of others.
Words do have means, but interpretation is the key. We could both read the same words and yet come to very different conclusions on its means. Most religions do not deal in absolutes. Maybe I?m wrong and Islam does, but I believe there are too many peaceful Muslims for that to be the case.[/quote]
What I’m finding more and more unacceptable is the deafening silence of that peaceful Muslim majority in regards to all the violence,hate and bigotry.
If they are out there,and there are so many,where is their outrage?
[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
If they are out there,and there are so many,where is their outrage? [/quote]
They, the vast majority, are silenced by the small minority of extremists. All they can do is shrug and look at us as if to say, “We’re too cowardly to drag their clerics from the mosques, attack their training camps, and protect the religious minorites in our midst. But, we’ll be mad if you do anything about it. So, get used to it.”
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
You made your point what ever text you pulled the above from shows Islam is against the world, but the point is it is fallible. It was created by man. It may or may not have been inspired by Allah, God, or whomever.
The fact that it was “created by man” is specious. All religious texts are ultimately written down “by man.” The issue is, what do those texts say and how are they understood?
The understanding of these religious texts, for the most part, governs the behavior of the people who subscribe to that religion. I hope I’m not saying anything controversial here. The Bible, (as it is understood), governs the behavior of Christians, the Qur’an, Hadith, and Sira govern the behavior of Muslims.
We will never know, but I fail to see how Islam is based on war and hatred.
Well, I don’t doubt that you fail to see it. I present facts and then they’re waved off by you in these generalized statements. The Qur’an either has meaning or it doesn’t. It’s either understood a certain way or it’s not.
It’s the same for any other book. I can’t pick up Moby Dick and say that it’s a book about computer science, can I? Do words mean things or not?
I guess you might be able to argue that Mohammed was really this peaceful guy like Jesus who went around helping everyone, and that later scribes corrupted the text to make it promote violence, but at the end of the day, that doesn’t matter. What does matter is how it is read and interpreted now.
Muslims maintain, in accordance with Surah 33:21, that Mohammed is an excellent model of conduct. According to historical events recorded in Muslim religious texts, Mohammed did a lot of things that non-Muslims view as “BAD” by any reasonable standard, including unprovoked ethnic cleansing, rape, pedophilia, theft, slavery and murder.
Irrefutable post.
Yes it is a good post, but how many people live their lives exactly as the Bible or Quran say they should? I believe most people use these books as a guide. They use the scriptures to live a morally based life that betters?
themselves and their people.
The vast majority of Muslims have never killed anyone. Maybe they are bad Muslims, but the point is the extreme followers are the ones that use the text as justifications for their kills. They may have never been intended to justify the death of others.
Words do have means, but interpretation is the key. We could both read the same words and yet come to very different conclusions on its means. Most religions do not deal in absolutes. Maybe I?m wrong and Islam does, but I believe there are too many peaceful Muslims for that to be the case.[/quote]
Better be careful, common sense like this will get you in trouble around these parts.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote
Fortunately, we have the New Testament, which obligates us to cherem (holy war) of a spiritual type. We also don’t have to sacrifice goats and sheep anymore, nor bring in a tenth of our grain, nor worship at a temple in Jerusalem, thanks to Jesus. It’s great, isn’t it?
[/quote]
What is this cherem? There is a similar Hebrew work, חרם
, but that is a Jewish shunning, as was done to the philosopher Spinoza.
How is this cherem different from jihad, which is also a sort of warfare of a spiritual sort?
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
You made your point what ever text you pulled the above from shows Islam is against the world, but the point is it is fallible. It was created by man. It may or may not have been inspired by Allah, God, or whomever.
The fact that it was “created by man” is specious. All religious texts are ultimately written down “by man.” The issue is, what do those texts say and how are they understood?
The understanding of these religious texts, for the most part, governs the behavior of the people who subscribe to that religion. I hope I’m not saying anything controversial here. The Bible, (as it is understood), governs the behavior of Christians, the Qur’an, Hadith, and Sira govern the behavior of Muslims.
We will never know, but I fail to see how Islam is based on war and hatred.
Well, I don’t doubt that you fail to see it. I present facts and then they’re waved off by you in these generalized statements. The Qur’an either has meaning or it doesn’t. It’s either understood a certain way or it’s not.
It’s the same for any other book. I can’t pick up Moby Dick and say that it’s a book about computer science, can I? Do words mean things or not?
I guess you might be able to argue that Mohammed was really this peaceful guy like Jesus who went around helping everyone, and that later scribes corrupted the text to make it promote violence, but at the end of the day, that doesn’t matter. What does matter is how it is read and interpreted now.
Muslims maintain, in accordance with Surah 33:21, that Mohammed is an excellent model of conduct. According to historical events recorded in Muslim religious texts, Mohammed did a lot of things that non-Muslims view as “BAD” by any reasonable standard, including unprovoked ethnic cleansing, rape, pedophilia, theft, slavery and murder.
Irrefutable post.
Yes it is a good post, but how many people live their lives exactly as the Bible or Quran say they should? I believe most people use these books as a guide. They use the scriptures to live a morally based life that betters?
themselves and their people.
The vast majority of Muslims have never killed anyone. Maybe they are bad Muslims, but the point is the extreme followers are the ones that use the text as justifications for their kills. They may have never been intended to justify the death of others.
Words do have means, but interpretation is the key. We could both read the same words and yet come to very different conclusions on its means. Most religions do not deal in absolutes. Maybe I?m wrong and Islam does, but I believe there are too many peaceful Muslims for that to be the case.[/quote]
There are, of course, peaceful Muslims. No one is denying that. The problem is that they are peaceful in spite of what they’re religion teaches.
The peaceful verses in the Qur’an during Mohammed’s Meccan period are unfortunately abrogated by the sword verses (9:5, 9:29) in Mohammed’s later Medinan period, after the hijrah. That’s the problem.
BTW, the Qur’an is not arranged chronologically.
I believe that most Muslims are governed by natural law and conscience and have little knowledge of the Qur’an. There are quite a few Muslims who DO have knowledge and deliberately obfuscate it to non-Muslims. Lying to infidels is permissible, after all. As Mohammed said, “War is deceit.”
[quote]Journeyman wrote:
PRCalDude wrote
Fortunately, we have the New Testament, which obligates us to cherem (holy war) of a spiritual type. We also don’t have to sacrifice goats and sheep anymore, nor bring in a tenth of our grain, nor worship at a temple in Jerusalem, thanks to Jesus. It’s great, isn’t it?
What is this cherem? There is a similar Hebrew work, חרם
, but that is a Jewish shunning, as was done to the philosopher Spinoza.
How is this cherem different from jihad, which is also a sort of warfare of a spiritual sort? [/quote]
Cherem is a Hebrew word.
Lesser jihad is not of a spiritual sort. It’s purely “warfare for the spread of religion,” as the Sunni Islamic Law manual, the 'Umdat al-Salik, states (and spends the overwhelming majority of its time discussing).
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Journeyman wrote:
PRCalDude wrote
Fortunately, we have the New Testament, which obligates us to cherem (holy war) of a spiritual type. We also don’t have to sacrifice goats and sheep anymore, nor bring in a tenth of our grain, nor worship at a temple in Jerusalem, thanks to Jesus. It’s great, isn’t it?
What is this cherem? There is a similar Hebrew work, חרם
, but that is a Jewish shunning, as was done to the philosopher Spinoza.
How is this cherem different from jihad, which is also a sort of warfare of a spiritual sort?
Cherem is a Hebrew word.
Lesser jihad is not of a spiritual sort. It’s purely “warfare for the spread of religion,” as the Sunni Islamic Law manual, the 'Umdat al-Salik, states (and spends the overwhelming majority of its time discussing).
[/quote]
Yes cherem is a Hebrew word, he-resh-mem, but to quite Inigo Montoya, ‘You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means.’ Cherem is to a Jew what ex-communication is to a Catholic. It is linguistically linked to the arabic ‘harem’, which are the ‘off limits’ wives of a ruler.
With respect to Jihad, it is not warfare. Warfare/fighting is given by the word qital. Jihad is to struggle as in to giving one’s all to reach a goal, like Jacob struggling with God in Genesis.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:
Oh my, you’re so witty!
And arrogant, and pretentious, and know-it-all, and self-righteous, and, well, you know, a prick of a human being.
[/quote]
Yay, for me!
Really?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
If they are out there,and there are so many,where is their outrage?
They, the vast majority, are silenced by the small minority of extremists. All they can do is shrug and look at us as if to say, “We’re too cowardly to drag their clerics from the mosques, attack their training camps, and protect the religious minorites in our midst. But, we’ll be mad if you do anything about it. So, get used to it.”[/quote]
It is hard to stand up to tyranny. It always has been and is always will be. Through out history the extreme minority has control over the masses because no one wants to stand up and possibly be killed for their cause. In the past if you stood up to the Catholic Church you would be excommunicated and possibly killed. Before that if you went against the Roman Gods in favor of Christianity you would be persecuted and killed. America was founded because of religious persecution and it continues today. It isn’t even religion specific. The “silent” majority goes about their life not asking for anything except what they deserve through hard work, but you will always have a minority group that shouts at the top of their lungs what they wants. This can currently be seen in America in the gay community and their voice for marriage rights. It will always happen and unless a person is specifically persecuted for the most part I think people turn their head and just let things be. That is why extremist get away with their BS for so long until the silent majority finally says enough is enough and lays the hammer down. Until that happens events like the recent massacre and 9/11 will always happen and they probably always will.
[quote]orion wrote:
That’s ok, though. Pretty much what people expect from an Austrian villager…
Really?
[/quote]
Is calling someone a villager supposed to be an insult in Austria?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
That’s ok, though. Pretty much what people expect from an Austrian villager…
Really?
Is calling someone a villager supposed to be an insult in Austria?[/quote]
Not really, that would only imply that you are a little bit provincial.
What really puzzles me though is what he expects an Austrian villager to be like:
I think that shows his arrogant, elitist, city slicker attitude towards us country folk.