[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
The explanation is not in the bible, it was a reasonably common phrase at the time and the people hearing the story would have been expected to know about it.
So, something does not have to be written in the Bible for believers to believe in it? (or non-believers, in your case?).
Here’s an article on Purgatory and some information on the different types of sin and the punishments for them.
You won’t find the word “Purgatory” in the bible.
That was actually the point.
Wait, are you debating if just the word, “Purgatory,” is in the bible? Or, if there is biblical support for the tradition of praying for souls?[/quote]
Gkhan was talking about things that are not explicitly in the Bible but are followed as traditions of parts of Christianity.
Then you pointed out that Purgatory as a word is not in the Bible. I was saying that we were both aware of that and that it was the basis for the latest strand of the discussion.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
The explanation is not in the bible, it was a reasonably common phrase at the time and the people hearing the story would have been expected to know about it.
So, something does not have to be written in the Bible for believers to believe in it? (or non-believers, in your case?).
Here’s an article on Purgatory and some information on the different types of sin and the punishments for them.
You won’t find the word “Purgatory” in the bible.
That was actually the point.
Wait, are you debating if just the word, “Purgatory,” is in the bible? Or, if there is biblical support for the tradition of praying for souls?
Gkhan was talking about things that are not explicitly in the Bible but are followed as traditions of parts of Christianity.
Then you pointed out that Purgatory as a word is not in the Bible. I was saying that we were both aware of that and that it was the basis for the latest strand of the discussion.[/quote]
Just wasn’t sure if you two were discussing biblical support for the concept attached to the word, or just the word that’s attached to the concept. From this answer it appears you’re both discussing something you agree on, the lack of the word.
I brought up the concept, CB said it’s not in the Bible.
I said Jesus said it’s harder for a rich man to get to heaven than one to pass through the eye of a needle.
CB said the eye of the needle is a gate in the walls of Jerusalem(?)
I asked how is that explanation revelant when he dismissed the concept of Purgatory because it wasn’t in the Bible…that explanation about the gate isn’t in the Bible either.
The concept of Purgatory was agreed upon by schooled doctors of the church and experts on the faith.
If you believe that Jesus is the son of God then you have to ask yourself if God would oppose the US? Would the GOD of the OLD TESTAMENT oppose the US?
On the other hand, violent acts and violent people must - at times - be dealt with violently. And while it’s wonderful to sit back for sixty years and watch as the muslim world murders anyone who does not share it’s desire to destroy Israel (if not the Jews themselves), but at some point you’ve got to start kicking asses. That’s what the US does. Who else will? UK? Right. France? Ha. Russia? China?
If you believe that Jesus is the son of God then you have to ask yourself if God would oppose the US? Would the GOD of the OLD TESTAMENT oppose the US?
On the other hand, violent acts and violent people must - at times - be dealt with violently. And while it’s wonderful to sit back for sixty years and watch as the muslim world murders anyone who does not share it’s desire to destroy Israel (if not the Jews themselves), but at some point you’ve got to start kicking asses. That’s what the US does. Who else will? UK? Right. France? Ha. Russia? China? [/quote]
Hey, we kick arses! Just as long as it is a limited number of arses and the USA is prepared to step in if we bite off more than we can chew.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
ProwlCat wrote:
To the original question:
If you believe that Jesus is the son of God then you have to ask yourself if God would oppose the US? Would the GOD of the OLD TESTAMENT oppose the US?
On the other hand, violent acts and violent people must - at times - be dealt with violently. And while it’s wonderful to sit back for sixty years and watch as the muslim world murders anyone who does not share it’s desire to destroy Israel (if not the Jews themselves), but at some point you’ve got to start kicking asses. That’s what the US does. Who else will? UK? Right. France? Ha. Russia? China?
Hey, we kick arses! Just as long as it is a limited number of arses and the USA is prepared to step in if we bite off more than we can chew.[/quote]
Bill Bailey put it best. “America’s like the bully of the world, going up to countries and saying ‘give us your sweets or I’ll smash your face in’ and Britain leans round the back, shakes its fist, and goes ‘yeeaahh.’”
I’ve never posted on this site before but read it quite frequently. I couldn’t agree more with Rainjack on this one…the question of whether Christ would oppose any government is ridiculous. Christ message was the exact opposite…do not concern yourself with what government is doing. Rainjack was again correct that legalism was what Christ was fighting against. Christ came to give grace and life not to speak out against government. I do agree that religion is the problem, but Christ was not about religion…the exact opposite is true he was about a relationship…one that could only happen through the love that he showed here on earth. Please dont miss the point of his message.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
ProwlCat wrote:
To the original question:
If you believe that Jesus is the son of God then you have to ask yourself if God would oppose the US? Would the GOD of the OLD TESTAMENT oppose the US?
On the other hand, violent acts and violent people must - at times - be dealt with violently. And while it’s wonderful to sit back for sixty years and watch as the muslim world murders anyone who does not share it’s desire to destroy Israel (if not the Jews themselves), but at some point you’ve got to start kicking asses. That’s what the US does. Who else will? UK? Right. France? Ha. Russia? China?
Hey, we kick arses! Just as long as it is a limited number of arses and the USA is prepared to step in if we bite off more than we can chew.
Bill Bailey put it best. “America’s like the bully of the world, going up to countries and saying ‘give us your sweets or I’ll smash your face in’ and Britain leans round the back, shakes its fist, and goes ‘yeeaahh.’”
[/quote]
Actually on a couple of occasions we are like kid who picks a fight then runs screaming for his bigger brother.
[quote]mattfelts wrote:
I’ve never posted on this site before but read it quite frequently. I couldn’t agree more with Rainjack on this one…the question of whether Christ would oppose any government is ridiculous. Christ message was the exact opposite…do not concern yourself with what government is doing. Rainjack was again correct that legalism was what Christ was fighting against. Christ came to give grace and life not to speak out against government. I do agree that religion is the problem, but Christ was not about religion…the exact opposite is true he was about a relationship…one that could only happen through the love that he showed here on earth. Please dont miss the point of his message.[/quote]
Actually in passages such as Romans 13 you are told to do what the government tells you and pay your taxes as the government is God’s representitive.
Actually in passages such as Romans 13 you are told to do what the government tells you and pay your taxes as the government is God’s representitive.[/quote]
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Actually in passages such as Romans 13 you are told to do what the government tells you and pay your taxes as the government is God’s representitive.
Oh, but that’s not Christianity, it’s Paulianity.
But as Paul made up Jesus Christ it’s one and the same surely.[/quote]
Paul made up Christ? Are you sure? There were so many books both in the Bible and not included which make up his life and teaching, is it believable to assume Paul made them all up?
Or, if he did not exist, was the story of Christ an allegory of the Essenes?
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
mattfelts wrote:
I’ve never posted on this site before but read it quite frequently. I couldn’t agree more with Rainjack on this one…the question of whether Christ would oppose any government is ridiculous. Christ message was the exact opposite…do not concern yourself with what government is doing. Rainjack was again correct that legalism was what Christ was fighting against. Christ came to give grace and life not to speak out against government. I do agree that religion is the problem, but Christ was not about religion…the exact opposite is true he was about a relationship…one that could only happen through the love that he showed here on earth. Please dont miss the point of his message.
Actually in passages such as Romans 13 you are told to do what the government tells you and pay your taxes as the government is God’s representitive.[/quote]
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Paul goes on to say that love is the fulfillment of the law. Do we have to live under a government…of course, but that in no way says that Christ advocated any government. The same as the Old Testament law that the Israelites begged God to establish, and God told them that they would not be happy with such a law. The Old Testament law was used by God to show that they could never be perfect enough to live up to the perfect law of God. Christ is the fulfillment of the law…we are no longer subject to the law…only subject to love and Christ was
love. And Paul was also imprisoned many times for not exactly following the “rules” of government.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Not everything the government tells you. If an action contradicts Christian morality, well, there you go.[/quote]
Hence the original topic of this thread.
Christ would not oppose a government as a whole, but would oppose certain actions committed or policies held by such a government. I’m sure that he also would have been very much in support of things like the consitution, declaration of independence and bill of rights.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Actually in passages such as Romans 13 you are told to do what the government tells you and pay your taxes as the government is God’s representitive.
Oh, but that’s not Christianity, it’s Paulianity.
But as Paul made up Jesus Christ it’s one and the same surely.
Paul made up Christ? Are you sure? There were so many books both in the Bible and not included which make up his life and teaching, is it believable to assume Paul made them all up?
Or, if he did not exist, was the story of Christ an allegory of the Essenes?[/quote]
I was being glib. I don’t think Paul made up Christ from scratch however given that Jesus Christ just means Annointed Saviour and wasn’t actually a name per se at the time I think it is fair to say that Paul was one of the driving forces behind pulling together popular stories that were circulating about any number of religious figures and leaders and trying to unite them into a cohesive script as an atempt to modernise Judaism.
Interesting side note. You know the guy that the Jews called for to be released by Pilate instead of our old friend Jesus of Nazareth (a city which incidentally didn’t exist at the time)? You know what his name was? Yep, you guessed it Jesus Bar Abba or The Saviour, Son of the Father.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Actually in passages such as Romans 13 you are told to do what the government tells you and pay your taxes as the government is God’s representitive.
Oh, but that’s not Christianity, it’s Paulianity.
But as Paul made up Jesus Christ it’s one and the same surely.
Paul made up Christ? Are you sure? There were so many books both in the Bible and not included which make up his life and teaching, is it believable to assume Paul made them all up?
Or, if he did not exist, was the story of Christ an allegory of the Essenes?
I was being glib. I don’t think Paul made up Christ from scratch however given that Jesus Christ just means Annointed Saviour and wasn’t actually a name per se at the time I think it is fair to say that Paul was one of the driving forces behind pulling together popular stories that were circulating about any number of religious figures and leaders and trying to unite them into a cohesive script as an atempt to modernise Judaism.
Interesting side note. You know the guy that the Jews called for to be released by Pilate instead of our old friend Jesus of Nazareth (a city which incidentally didn’t exist at the time)? You know what his name was? Yep, you guessed it Jesus Bar Abba or The Saviour, Son of the Father.[/quote]
[quote][i]"The last place the uninstructed observer would look for traces of Jewish influence is in the Christian Church, yet if he fails to look there he will miss much…
The Jew has got hold of the Church in doctrine, in liberalism, so-called, and in the feverish and feeble sociological diversions of many classes. If there is any place where a straight study of the Jewish Question should be made it is in the modern Church which is unconsciously giving allegiance to a mass of Jewish propaganda…"[/i][/quote]
–Henry Ford
Among Evangelicals, A Kinship With Jews
Scholars of religion call this worldview “philo-Semitism,” the opposite of anti-Semitism. It is a burgeoning phenomenon in evangelical Christian churches across the country, a hot topic in Jewish historical studies and a wellspring of support for Israel.
Rapture Ready: The Unauthorized ‘Christians United for Israel’ Tour
