Christ Would Oppose USA?

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Yep. From what I have seen of the difference between RC and CofE moving from the UK to Mexico, CofE know the bible really well but only barely believe it, the RCs here believe pasionately and would kill over their religion but they actually have very little knowledge of what is in the bible.

My wife is a classic example. Everytime there is a religious festival here in Mexico (at least every other week) I have to explain the background of it to her. But she goes to mass.[/quote]

I don’t know. That hasn’t been my experience with Catholicism. We have readings from the bible everday on our own and/or within the mass. RCIA is full of readings to go along with the instruction. In fact, everyone of our classes start with at least one reading. And, one specific priest has a very popular bible study group. Plus, theres a good selection of quality bibles to choose from.

sloth, as I say, I am comparing Latin American RC with Middle England Church of England Protestantism which is probably the two most extreme ends of the spectrum.

What I have found with both RC and CofE is it is interesting which readings are covered in the support literature and which ones (i.e. the conflicting ones.) are missed out.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
It should be pointed out at this stage that Jesus on the crucifix in his dieing moments cried out ‘oh lord, why have you forsaken me?’[/quote]

Then he would agree- the world is a shit-hole.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
The point being made was that a rich man can get into heaven but only by not caring about the riches and by risking losing them in the persuit of acess to heaven.[/quote]

Nontheless not an easy thing for a rich man to do.

P.S. where is your explanation in the Bible? The one I read just has a statement. Did the apostles make a footnote or something?

You asked me where’s Purgatory in the Bible. Where’s the explanation of this gate you just gave me? How about book, chapter and line.

I have just a couple of questions.If everyone lived the way Jesus preached(love and kindness, etc)would the world be a better place? If you lived that way and the world was a better place, and there was no Jesus or afterlife, what have you lost? BUT, what if you didn’t live that way and there is truth to HIS teachings? Then what have you lost? I prefer the love and kindness route myself.

[quote]danc2469 wrote:
I have just a couple of questions.If everyone lived the way Jesus preached(love and kindness, etc)would the world be a better place? If you lived that way and the world was a better place, and there was no Jesus or afterlife, what have you lost? BUT, what if you didn’t live that way and there is truth to HIS teachings? Then what have you lost? I prefer the love and kindness route myself.[/quote]

But it’s not an either or, you can go the honest route and be nice to people just because it is the right thing to do.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
The point being made was that a rich man can get into heaven but only by not caring about the riches and by risking losing them in the persuit of acess to heaven.

Nontheless not an easy thing for a rich man to do.

P.S. where is your explanation in the Bible? The one I read just has a statement. Did the apostles make a footnote or something?

You asked me where’s Purgatory in the Bible. Where’s the explanation of this gate you just gave me? How about book, chapter and line.[/quote]

The explanation is not in the bible, it was a reasonably common phrase at the time and the people hearing the story would have been expected to know about it.

Of course maybe they really meant passing a loaded camel through the eye of a sewing needle but to me that would just be silly.

[quote]danc2469 wrote:
I have just a couple of questions.If everyone lived the way Jesus preached(love and kindness, etc)would the world be a better place? If you lived that way and the world was a better place, and there was no Jesus or afterlife, what have you lost? BUT, what if you didn’t live that way and there is truth to HIS teachings? Then what have you lost? I prefer the love and kindness route myself.[/quote]

I’m all for the love and kindness route as well, but as Cockney said, belief in Jesus is not a requisite for living such a life. I’d say that Ghandi was a pretty damn peaceful and loving person, but to the best of my knowledge, he was not a Christian. Same could be said for the Dalai Lama and John Lennon (well, except for a short period around 1977), both all about peace and love of your fellow man/woman, but not Christians.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
The point being made was that a rich man can get into heaven but only by not caring about the riches and by risking losing them in the persuit of acess to heaven.

Nontheless not an easy thing for a rich man to do.

P.S. where is your explanation in the Bible? The one I read just has a statement. Did the apostles make a footnote or something?

You asked me where’s Purgatory in the Bible. Where’s the explanation of this gate you just gave me? How about book, chapter and line.

The explanation is not in the bible, it was a reasonably common phrase at the time and the people hearing the story would have been expected to know about it.

Of course maybe they really meant passing a loaded camel through the eye of a sewing needle but to me that would just be silly.[/quote]

I’m not sure the needle gate explanation holds up.

really, why not?

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
really, why not?[/quote]

“They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle.”

The idea of a large animal, in this case an elephant, passing through the eye of a needle existed to suggest impossible or unthinkable things.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
really, why not?

“They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle.”

The idea of a large animal, in this case an elephant, passing through the eye of a needle existed to suggest impossible or unthinkable things.[/quote]

Whatever the reference (camel, rope, gate or real needle) it was still intended to show that for a rich person to get into heaven would be difficult if they cared about their riches, which was the point that I was making.

When you reference the Koran you have to remember that it was written about 500 years after the earliest texts of the New Testemant which is ample time for phrases to get corrupted.

Not a challenge, just a little trivia. I find this passage interesting. Also, I don’t think this passage is saying what most people think it’s saying.

Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”

Note the rich man asks only what he must do to gain eternal life.

He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Seems to me Jesus is laying out a teaser for what he ends up saying more clearly a few verses later. Noone is good enough to earn their way into heaven. That is, it is a gift to sinful man. However, man could reject this gift through his actions. Such as, not adhering to the commandments, at the least.

[i]He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;

honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"

The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?”
[/i]

Now, remember he’s already told him what is required simply to enter eternal life. But, the rich man is seeking more. Perhaps he’s looking for treasures in heaven? Status?

Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Now this suggests that not only would he be able to enter heaven, but may even be rewarded in heaven. Treasures in heaven comes up again.

[i]When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.[/i]

Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Now this is the part that takes some thought. Jesus has already said that the man must simply keep the commandments. But now, it seems that he’s saying simply because the man is rich, it would be close to, if not completely impossible, for the man to enter heaven.

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and said, “Who then can be saved?”

This to me is the telling part of this whole thing, the disciples’ reaction. They’re astonished! They come off mortified that not even a rich man can get into heaven. “Who then can be saved?”

Why would that be? I’ve read, and it seems to fit, that many then would’ve assumed earthly riches were a blessing by God on one that he was satisfied with. So if one who had been favored with riches can’t even get his way in, what about everyone else?

Jesus looked at them and said, “For human beings this is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”

And there you go. It is impossible for human beings, period. Not just the rich, but human beings. Which also makes a literal needle more likely.

[i]Then Peter said to him in reply, “We have given up everything and followed you. What will there be for us?”

Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times more, and will inherit eternal life.

But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first.[/i]

And the last bit comes back to treasures and places of honor in heaven for those who’ve devoted themselves fully to the church, the word, etc. Possibly clery, holy orders, missionaries, martyrs, and those who’ve been made outcasts, etc.

A longish post for me, but I like this passage, and thought you might enjoy it at least on a literary level. But, don’t take what I’ve said to be definitive. In fact, I’d like to run this by my RCIA group if we get to this passage.

It is an interesting passage, I see it as more saying that anyone can get into heaven by following the comandments however highlighting that to truly follow them is harder for someone who is rich and used to getting their own way.

I agree with you that the disciples are surprised in that they relate earthly riches with being blessed by God.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

The explanation is not in the bible, it was a reasonably common phrase at the time and the people hearing the story would have been expected to know about it.[/quote]

So, something does not have to be written in the Bible for believers to believe in it? (or non-believers, in your case?).

Here’s an article on Purgatory and some information on the different types of sin and the punishments for them.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

The explanation is not in the bible, it was a reasonably common phrase at the time and the people hearing the story would have been expected to know about it.

So, something does not have to be written in the Bible for believers to believe in it? (or non-believers, in your case?).

Here’s an article on Purgatory and some information on the different types of sin and the punishments for them.

[/quote]

Spot on, people seem to have tagged bits and bobs onto religions as they go along, Chrisitanity is by no means alone on this. Then you get people today following rules that probably made sense at the time but have no relevance today. Some of the food rules in different religions are a perfect example of this.

The other fun thing is that modern followers of the religion think they are following the one and only truth without realising that what they are following is just a snapshot from the last time someone updated the rules.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

The explanation is not in the bible, it was a reasonably common phrase at the time and the people hearing the story would have been expected to know about it.

So, something does not have to be written in the Bible for believers to believe in it? (or non-believers, in your case?).

Here’s an article on Purgatory and some information on the different types of sin and the punishments for them.

[/quote]

You won’t find the word “Purgatory” in the bible.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

The explanation is not in the bible, it was a reasonably common phrase at the time and the people hearing the story would have been expected to know about it.

So, something does not have to be written in the Bible for believers to believe in it? (or non-believers, in your case?).

Here’s an article on Purgatory and some information on the different types of sin and the punishments for them.

You won’t find the word “Purgatory” in the bible.[/quote]

That was actually the point.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

The explanation is not in the bible, it was a reasonably common phrase at the time and the people hearing the story would have been expected to know about it.

So, something does not have to be written in the Bible for believers to believe in it? (or non-believers, in your case?).

Here’s an article on Purgatory and some information on the different types of sin and the punishments for them.

You won’t find the word “Purgatory” in the bible.

That was actually the point.[/quote]

What do you mean?

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

The explanation is not in the bible, it was a reasonably common phrase at the time and the people hearing the story would have been expected to know about it.

So, something does not have to be written in the Bible for believers to believe in it? (or non-believers, in your case?).

Here’s an article on Purgatory and some information on the different types of sin and the punishments for them.

You won’t find the word “Purgatory” in the bible.

That was actually the point.[/quote]

Wait, are you debating if just the word, “Purgatory,” is in the bible? Or, if there is biblical support for the tradition of praying for souls?