[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
2. If someone chooses not to hire someone because of the skin color in order to fulfill an Affirmative Action mandate, is it racist or not?
[/quote]
I think so. Affirmative Action is just plain stupid. It says, “We think that you aren’t at all qualified because of your race, but we’ll hire you anyhow”.
Granted, in this job climate, people are just happy to be able to get work (AA or not)… but descrimination is still wrong.
Why not. Descrimination based on race is racism. It goes both ways.
Perhaps in his experience with a certain group of individuals (in this case Black Americans) he identified certain traits which the majority possessed and which would have a negative impact on his business.
Whether these traits were brought about by genetics, society, etc should be of no interest to him as a businessman. Poorer areas often times have worse schools and therefore, less educated students. I would prefer to not hire these people. If they all happen to be of a certain race, sex or religion that is not my concern as a business owner.
As a member of society I recognize the benefit of equality and freedom for everyone. But, this is something society must strive for and is certainly far from being acheived. I don’t believe (small) business owners should be responsible for fixing society’s inequalities while potentially putting their business at risk. Business decisions need to be based on real-world facts, pre-judgement and gut-feelings.
I am from Arkansas, but i don’t know wtf a hoosier is.[/quote]
A Hoosier is someone from Indiana, hoosier is synonymous with redneck. In my experience, hoosier is kind of like the spanish word gringo, in that those who use it most often are exemplary of it.
Really? The primary factor in someone’s employment the majority of the time is their skin color? That’s pretty insulting to a lot of people for a lot of reasons.
Where did I write either “primary factor” or “majority of the time”? [/quote]
Professor X wrote:
Just as there is no “black race” yet in America, jobs are in the balance based on perception of race with it all coming down to simple skin color the majority of the time. (emphasis mine)
If there were other factors, I understood them as not being primary as it didn’t “come down to” them, and “majority of the time” was quoting you precisely.
BTW- I’m still listening, are black Africans correct in considering themselves a separate race from black Americans? It’s okay if you don’t know, I don’t either.
Why does everyone assume that affirmative action forces the hiring of UNQUALIFIED individuals.
In many cases, AA have to be overqualified even to get an interview.
when i was in college someone tried that on me.
“i was here ONLY because of affirmative action.” Well upon further review. I had higher SAT scores, higher HS Gpa. And i was on the deans list every semester i was eligible. The white guy who was offended… not so much.
[quote]lucasa wrote:
Professor X wrote:
lucasa wrote:
Really? The primary factor in someone’s employment the majority of the time is their skin color? That’s pretty insulting to a lot of people for a lot of reasons.
Where did I write either “primary factor” or “majority of the time”?
Professor X wrote:
Just as there is no “black race” yet in America, jobs are in the balance based on perception of race with it all coming down to simple skin color the majority of the time. (emphasis mine)
If there were other factors, I understood them as not being primary as it didn’t “come down to” them, and “majority of the time” was quoting you precisely.
BTW- I’m still listening, are black Africans correct in considering themselves a separate race from black Americans? It’s okay if you don’t know, I don’t either.[/quote]
Then you understood wrong and need to work on that. As for your last question, it doesn’t matter what the truth is. The truth is my family is made up of influences from all over the world including Africa, France, Spain, Native America and Trinidad. So what race does that make me? I am still considered “black american”. How would I know the make up of anyone else but myself? It is a rare thing for an African American to even know that much about his family’s background. So when you ask flatly, “are black Americans the same race as Africans”, to find that answer…
Ask every single black person you see and there is your answer. Your fault is grouping every person with black skin born in America together to start with. Because of that, there are terms like “the black community”.
The real question is, why are basic concepts not even understood by so many of you?
Our eyes tell us that people look different. No one has trouble distinguishing a Czech from a Chinese. But what do those differences mean? Are they biological? Has race always been with us? How does race affect people today?
There’s less - and more - to race than meets the eye:
Race is a modern idea. Ancient societies, like the Greeks, did not divide people according to physical distinctions, but according to religion, status, class, even language. The English language didn’t even have the word ‘race’ until it turns up in 1508 in a poem by William Dunbar referring to a line of kings.
Race has no genetic basis. Not one characteristic, trait or even gene distinguishes all the members of one so-called race from all the members of another so-called race.
Human subspecies don’t exist. Unlike many animals, modern humans simply haven’t been around long enough or isolated enough to evolve into separate subspecies or races. Despite surface appearances, we are one of the most similar of all species.
Skin color really is only skin deep. Most traits are inherited independently from one another. The genes influencing skin color have nothing to do with the genes influencing hair form, eye shape, blood type, musical talent, athletic ability or forms of intelligence. Knowing someone’s skin color doesn’t necessarily tell you anything else about him or her.
Most variation is within, not between, “races.” Of the small amount of total human variation, 85% exists within any local population, be they Italians, Kurds, Koreans or Cherokees. About 94% can be found within any continent. That means two random Koreans may be as genetically different as a Korean and an Italian.
Slavery predates race. Throughout much of human history, societies have enslaved others, often as a result of conquest or war, even debt, but not because of physical characteristics or a belief in natural inferiority. Due to a unique set of historical circumstances, ours was the first slave system where all the slaves shared similar physical characteristics.
Race and freedom evolved together. The U.S. was founded on the radical new principle that “All men are created equal.” But our early economy was based largely on slavery. How could this anomaly be rationalized? The new idea of race helped explain why some people could be denied the rights and freedoms that others took for granted.
Race justified social inequalities as natural. As the race idea evolved, white superiority became “common sense” in America. It justified not only slavery but also the extermination of Indians, exclusion of Asian immigrants, and the taking of Mexican lands by a nation that professed a belief in democracy. Racial practices were institutionalized within American government, laws, and society.
Race isn’t biological, but racism is still real. Race is a powerful social idea that gives people different access to opportunities and resources. Our government and social institutions have created advantages that disproportionately channel wealth, power, and resources to white people. This affects everyone, whether we are aware of it or not.
Colorblindness will not end racism. Pretending race doesn’t exist is not the same as creating equality. Race is more than stereotypes and individual prejudice. To combat racism, we need to identify and remedy social policies and institutional practices that advantage some groups at the expense of others.
RACE - The Power of an Illusion was produced by California Newsreel in association with the Independent Television Service (ITVS). Major funding provided by the Ford Foundation and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting Diversity Fund.
BTW- I’m still listening, are black Africans correct in considering themselves a separate race from black Americans? It’s okay if you don’t know, I don’t either.[/quote]
Americans of African decent generally dont consider themselves a “race”. We are a community.
A community usually refers to a group of people who interact and share certain things as a group, but it can refer to various collections of living things sharing an environment, plant or animal. This article focuses on human communities, in which intent, belief, resources, preferences, needs, risks and a number of other conditions may be present and common, affecting the identity of the participants and their degree of adhesion.
The word community comes from the Latin communis, meaning “common, public, shared by all or many.”[1] The Latin term “communitatus” from which the English word “community” comes, is comprised of three elements, “Com-” - a Latin prefix meaning with or togther, “-Munis-” - ultimately Proto-Indo-European in orgin, it has been suggested that it means “the changes or exchanges that link” (Both municipal and monetary take their meaning here), and “-tatus” a Latin suffix suggesting diminutive, small, intimate or local.
German sociologist Ferdinand T?nnies presented a concise differentiation between the terms “community” (gemeinschaft) and “society” (gesellschaft). In his 1887 work, Gemeinschaft und Gesellschaft, T?nnies argued that “community” is perceived to be a tighter and more cohesive social entity within the context of the larger society, due to the presence of a “unity of will.”[2] He added that family and kinship were the perfect expressions of community but that other shared characteristics, such as place or belief, could also result in gemeinschaft.
Then yes. To fight racism as a group, it would fall under a ‘racist action’ much like the Civil rights movement. To relate that to empowered discrimination is a leap I truly hope you aren’t trying to make.[/quote]
Correct - I am not leaping to anything.
It seemed to me that if the ‘racism’ label can be applied any time a group is generalized, regardless of whether the generalizer actually believes in a genetic racial inferiority exists, then any generalization - whether favorable or unfavorable - is racist.
Your reference to the Civil Rights movement is actually precisely why I don’t subscribe to the standard you do for what constitutes ‘racist’ and what does not.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Just a few quick observations:
When Black Americans refer to the ‘black community’ as acting or moving in a particular way, does that run afoul of the ‘racist’ test?[/quote]
If they make a statement based solely on skin color, then yes, it’s racist.
If I understand your question correctly, you’re saying that an employer might hire a minority over a white person who is more qualified (that must be assumed, otherwise your question is pointless; if the minority is more qualified they should be hired anyway) simply because of Affirmative Action, right?
If that’s the case, then no that’s not racist. But it’s a crock of shit, as is AA. If I were a minority and I got a job over someone who was more qualified simply because of my skin color, I would feel patronized. Hire whoever is most qualified. No one should get any breaks because of their skin color.
The white person isn’t entitled to anything, but if he was not chosen based on his skin color, then yes that, is racist.
Our eyes tell us that people look different. No one has trouble distinguishing a Czech from a Chinese. But what do those differences mean? Are they biological? Has race always been with us? How does race affect people today?
There’s less - and more - to race than meets the eye:
Race is a modern idea. Ancient societies, like the Greeks, did not divide people according to physical distinctions, but according to religion, status, class, even language. The English language didn’t even have the word ‘race’ until it turns up in 1508 in a poem by William Dunbar referring to a line of kings.
Race has no genetic basis. Not one characteristic, trait or even gene distinguishes all the members of one so-called race from all the members of another so-called race.
Human subspecies don’t exist. Unlike many animals, modern humans simply haven’t been around long enough or isolated enough to evolve into separate subspecies or races. Despite surface appearances, we are one of the most similar of all species.
Skin color really is only skin deep. Most traits are inherited independently from one another. The genes influencing skin color have nothing to do with the genes influencing hair form, eye shape, blood type, musical talent, athletic ability or forms of intelligence. Knowing someone’s skin color doesn’t necessarily tell you anything else about him or her.
Most variation is within, not between, “races.” Of the small amount of total human variation, 85% exists within any local population, be they Italians, Kurds, Koreans or Cherokees. About 94% can be found within any continent. That means two random Koreans may be as genetically different as a Korean and an Italian.
Slavery predates race. Throughout much of human history, societies have enslaved others, often as a result of conquest or war, even debt, but not because of physical characteristics or a belief in natural inferiority. Due to a unique set of historical circumstances, ours was the first slave system where all the slaves shared similar physical characteristics.
Race and freedom evolved together. The U.S. was founded on the radical new principle that “All men are created equal.” But our early economy was based largely on slavery. How could this anomaly be rationalized? The new idea of race helped explain why some people could be denied the rights and freedoms that others took for granted.
Race justified social inequalities as natural. As the race idea evolved, white superiority became “common sense” in America. It justified not only slavery but also the extermination of Indians, exclusion of Asian immigrants, and the taking of Mexican lands by a nation that professed a belief in democracy. Racial practices were institutionalized within American government, laws, and society.
Race isn’t biological, but racism is still real. Race is a powerful social idea that gives people different access to opportunities and resources. Our government and social institutions have created advantages that disproportionately channel wealth, power, and resources to white people. This affects everyone, whether we are aware of it or not.
Colorblindness will not end racism. Pretending race doesn’t exist is not the same as creating equality. Race is more than stereotypes and individual prejudice. To combat racism, we need to identify and remedy social policies and institutional practices that advantage some groups at the expense of others.
RACE - The Power of an Illusion was produced by California Newsreel in association with the Independent Television Service (ITVS). Major funding provided by the Ford Foundation and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting Diversity Fund.
[/quote]
If that’s the case, then no that’s not racist. But it’s a crock of shit, as is AA. If I were a minority and I got a job over someone who was more qualified simply because of my skin color, I would feel patronized. Hire whoever is most qualified. No one should get any breaks because of their skin color.
[/quote]
Lemme tell you something, i applied to harvard and didnt get in. If i was accepted for ANY reason. I would not care. When i got my degree, it wouldnt matter. Patronized?!?! Tell that to the bank account of a harvard grad.
President Bush got into Yale based SOLELY on who his parents were. Should he feel patronized?? I’ll bet he doesnt.
[quote]emdawgz1 wrote:
Race has no genetic basis. Not one characteristic, trait or even gene distinguishes all the members of one so-called race from all the members of another so-called race.
[/quote]
What about tay-sachs and sickle-cell? Also, there are now tests that can quantify your racial heritage based on your genetic makeup. This testing is used by various law enforcement agencies–including Scotland Yard. This testing was also used recently in an Alabama serial killer case
[quote]lesotho72 wrote:
emdawgz1 wrote:
Race has no genetic basis. Not one characteristic, trait or even gene distinguishes all the members of one so-called race from all the members of another so-called race.
What about tay-sachs and sickle-cell? Also, there are now tests that can quantify your racial heritage based on your genetic makeup. This testing is used by various law enforcement agencies–including Scotland Yard. This testing was also used recently in an Alabama serial killer case
[quote]lesotho72 wrote:
emdawgz1 wrote:
Race has no genetic basis. Not one characteristic, trait or even gene distinguishes all the members of one so-called race from all the members of another so-called race.
What about tay-sachs and sickle-cell? Also, there are now tests that can quantify your racial heritage based on your genetic makeup. This testing is used by various law enforcement agencies–including Scotland Yard. This testing was also used recently in an Alabama serial killer case
Seems political correctness as once again trumped science/logic.
[/quote]
A black friend of mine told me that black people have green blood. That should make it pretty easy to separate them, scientifically speaking, assuming this is true, of course.
A black friend of mine told me that black people have green blood. That should make it pretty easy to separate them, scientifically speaking, assuming this is true, of course.
DB[/quote]
That brings up an interesting point. The Vulcans on Star Trek also had green blood, whereas the Klingons were of black origin. How would you explain that?
Dang! You’re too clever for me! Me and the other klan members were trying to push this stuff off as “science”! Mitochondrial DNA? Phooey! Last time I let Jed analyze admixture proportions with a microarray chip!
Hell, the only supporters we got are those Confederate flag-waving, Bastions of Conservatism: PBS, Harvard and Dr. Henry Louis Gates (Head of African Studies at Harvard) Y’know–the good ol’ boys!
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The world will be better off when everyone stops worrying about skin color and sexual orientation.[/quote]
Truer words where never spoken my friend.
I’m in sales and the only color I see is green baby
Then you understood wrong and need to work on that.[/quote]
So then the primary factor for employment in these jobs that are ‘in the balance’ would be qualifications the majority of the time?
[quote]As for your last question, it doesn’t matter what the truth is. The truth is my family is made up of influences from all over the world including Africa, France, Spain, Native America and Trinidad. So what race does that make me? I am still considered “black american”. How would I know the make up of anyone else but myself? It is a rare thing for an African American to even know that much about his family’s background. So when you ask flatly, “are black Americans the same race as Africans”, to find that answer…
Ask every single black person you see and there is your answer.[/quote]
Just like you can’t speak on behalf of ‘the black community’ nor should you speak of black Africans’ opinions of black Americans, or did you go to Africa and ask every single black person you see and then do the same here to come up with the premise that; “It has long been known in the black community that many Africans consider us less than them because our genes have been “diluted” from years of slavery and being Americanized.”? It must matter on some level or else people wouln’t mind losing jobs based on the fact that the employer is from Ghana.
I didn’t. So far, we have a Chris Rock, a Ghanese man, and maybe yourself who has.
As you should be able to see, the logic is/can be very circular and tangled. Pile that on top of the fact that being a ‘white’ American I don’t get a lot of condescention from ‘black’ Africans for being a ‘black’ American.