[quote]rainjack wrote:
Berardi himself said that chocolate milk is a decent alternative to Surge… [/quote]
I’m really hoping that this was at a time when Surge was out of stock. I just don’t envision Berardi saying, “Chocolate milk… Surge… Meh… Whatever you like, I guess.”
I guess Kool-Aid is a decent alternative to water if you are stranded in the desert with an empty canteen. The only reason I posted a rebuttal is because Pookie stated there is no more than a 5% difference in value between Surge and chocolate milk. I think that the majority of people on here (at least those with any understanding of digestion/absorption of nutrients) would agree with me that Surge is a bit more valuable than that.
Everyone, pookie is dead on. Surge is a great product, but it is expensive for anyone living out of the country. It’s simple economics. Is the higher price of Surge compared to a homemade blend of hydro/dex/BCAAS/malto+(splenda and other sweeteners) worth the better taste and convenience? For some who have the money it is. However, as a college student strapped for funds, I will continue to buy hydro, malto, dex, and bcaas in bulk and save a lot of money over the years.
Calculating the value of Surge based on the amount of muscle built with the 25 grams of protein is a bad idea. Taking Surge gets you back in the gym faster. Add up all the extra workouts you were able to accomplish over a year, and THEN you can see how valuable Surge is. How many more workouts? I have no idea.
[quote]NateN wrote:
Calculating the value of Surge based on the amount of muscle built with the 25 grams of protein is a bad idea. Taking Surge gets you back in the gym faster. Add up all the extra workouts you were able to accomplish over a year, and THEN you can see how valuable Surge is. How many more workouts? I have no idea.
Oh, and this is for Zeb:
. . . hehehehehe[/quote]
Did you have your little finger tucked just inside of your lower lip when you giggled? I had a niece that used to giggle that way. She was probably 8 years old before she stopped that. We were all glad.
[quote]Terumo wrote:
I’m really hoping that this was at a time when Surge was out of stock. I just don’t envision Berardi saying, “Chocolate milk… Surge… Meh… Whatever you like, I guess.”
~Terumo[/quote]
Listen to Berardi’s D-Tap interview with Shugart. He explains it better than I can.
[quote]Terumo wrote:
Pookie stated there is no more than a 5% difference in value between Surge and chocolate milk.
~Terumo[/quote]
Actually, I estimated the 5% difference to be with a home made glucose-maltodextrin-whey mix, not with chocolate milk as such.
I think we’re all in agreement that just about any PWO that contains carbs and proteins is good; compared to nothing at all.
Surge might be the best PWO there is, but it is simply priced out of range for many people. Especially those living out of the US of A. A 5lbs tub of whey with a maltodextrin carb powder costs a lot less than Surge and IMHO is close enough as to be indistinguishable (hence, the 95% estimation).
Of course, I’ve been known to be full of shit, so take that as you will.
I’ve been using a PWO for a long time now. Poliquin recommended it in his book “The Poliquin Principles” and he emphasised the importance of carbs post workout, even more than protein. In fact, if I remember correctly it is the “refueling” of the muscles thru carbs that allows you to get back to the gym quickly, more than the protein.
I eventually added a drink pre-workout, similar to what is recommended with Surge (1/2 30 minutes prior, sip the rest during the workout).
[quote]NateN wrote:
Calculating the value of Surge based on the amount of muscle built with the 25 grams of protein is a bad idea. Taking Surge gets you back in the gym faster. Add up all the extra workouts you were able to accomplish over a year, and THEN you can see how valuable Surge is. How many more workouts? I have no idea.
[/quote]
Two points:
The only way to objectively evaluate Surge would be to run a double blind study involving multiple groups of trainees for a moderately long period.
Say, group A, no PWO; group B, PWO of whey+malto+glucose+BCAAs; group C using Surge. Train them for 3 months and compare gains in strength, size, etc.
My personal guess, would be that B and C do better than A, and that the diff. between B and C would not be considered statistically significant.
I’m currently training 6 days a week, 2-3 times a day (I train at home, so it’s easy to do short 15-20 minutes workouts throughout the day). I don’t how Surge would get me back to training quicker, unless I can forego sleep altogether while taking Surge.
There are many things that are not considered statistically significant that we all do anyway.
Microwaving in plastic… It causes cancer, right? And releases phytoestrogens into the food. But, does it cause a statistically significant increase in cancer rates? No one knows.
Personally I do anything within budget that will give me an edge. Whether or not that edge is statistically significant by way of a double-blind study is irrelevant.
$7.50 is a tall order for anyone. Glad I live in the US of A. Currently only about $2.25 a serving and considering I order in bulk there is no shipping.
Nate, how can you disagree w/ no statistically significant difference between hydro/malto/dextrose/bcaas vs. Surge. They’re almost identical. One is homemade, tastes crappy in comparison, but costs less. Same ingredients equals same results.
[quote]vandalay15 wrote:
Nate, how can you disagree w/ no statistically significant difference between hydro/malto/dextrose/bcaas vs. Surge. They’re almost identical. One is homemade, tastes crappy in comparison, but costs less. Same ingredients equals same results. [/quote]
I think the dissension is in two parts. First, people are disagreeing that you just need “some carbs” and “some protein” PWO. Sure, those are the best things in the worst case, but c’mon. “Carbs”? You mean like a bowl of rice? A couple scoops of Metamucil? I think it should be obvious there is a wide variety in what “carbs” describes. You can pick the right sugars, but just saying “carbs” doesn’t mean you’ve done so.
Ditty for protein. Eating a steak PWO isn’t going to help you much.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that you cannot make a home-grown ghetto Surge. What they are arguing is that you can’t do so just by throwing “carbs” and “protein” in a bottle, shaking it up, and drinking it. You have to be a bit more specific in your selection than that.
The second part is, I don’t think anyone here is telling you to buy Surge at any cost. I believe there is an understanding that it costs too much for some people, especially internationally. But the acknowledgement of that fact does not endorse your any-carb plus any-protein argument. And the negation of the any-carb plus any-protein argument does not imply that people are trying to force you to buy Surge.
[quote]RIT Jared wrote:
There are many things that are not considered statistically significant that we all do anyway.[/quote]
I guess we all do, but I try to put my energies towards things that are proven to work, rather than believed to work…
You’re the ideal consumer for a supplements company. From the “Watcha Got” thread, it appears that a lot of people will buy a bunch of stuff, whether it works or not. Why take chances, right?
The idea behind double-blind studies is to take out the “maybe, maybe not” factor. If you can keep everything else equal (a very difficult proposition when using human subjects) you can pretty much establish whether something works or not; and if it works, how much better it is than some other alternative.
[quote]Garrett W. wrote:
A “good quality protein powder” and some malto or glucose will not be near as good as Surge.
Surge uses whey hydrolysates. Grow! uses some micellar casein. A type that should NEVER be used in PWO. You want something quick absrobing.
Malto+Hydrolysates+BCAA+Glutamine would be like 90% effective.
Whey+glucose would be barely better than just eating food after.[/quote]
The ingredients of Surge list d-glucose (AKA dextrose), whey protein hydrolysate and maltodextrine. Ingredients are listed in order of quantity, so Surge is mostly dextrose. My guess from the rest of the label would be 45g dextrose, 25g whey and 4g maltodextrin.
Using glutamine in the PWO would simply drive up the cost and contribute nothing more. Even the BCAAs would not be worth the additionnal cost.
[quote]michaelv wrote:
I don’t think anyone is arguing that you cannot make a home-grown ghetto Surge. What they are arguing is that you can’t do so just by throwing “carbs” and “protein” in a bottle, shaking it up, and drinking it. You have to be a bit more specific in your selection than that.[/quote]
We all agree that chocolate milk is not on par with Surge, and neither would a steak with Metamucil be similar.
The main bone of contention seems to be whether you can approach the effectiveness of Surge by mixing the ingredients yourself. Surge’s label is quite helpful in that regard, since you’ve got the quantities and ingredients themselves listed.
Why couldn’t you get a similar effect by taking 45g of dextrose, 25g of whey protein(hydrolysate preferably, I guess) and 4g of maltodextrin and mixing them yourself? It all gets broken down by enzymes anyway before your body can use it, so…
Did you have your little finger tucked just inside of your lower lip when you giggled?
Pookie,
That’s probably close to what would happen if we ran an experiment. I disagree with there being no statistical difference. But we don’t know, do we?
[/quote]
NateN:
Yea, we thought that the little girl was a little creepy too, then again she was only 7. How old are you? Ahh, never mind…
As far as the Surge controversy: I can only say that in the end you will get what you pay for. How much better is something that costs more? Tough to say in some cases. I say to each his own. However, when I do cut corners,it’s never with anything that goes into my body!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
As far as the Surge controversy: I can only say that in the end you will get what you pay for. How much better is something that costs more? Tough to say in some cases. I say to each his own. However, when I do cut corners,it’s never with anything that goes into my body![/quote]
But that raises another question: How do you know that you’re getting your money’s worth? Any company can claim to use the purest whey or the best creatine, etc. But unless you pay to get the product analyzed, you can’t really know. It comes down to a matter of trust. Every company claims to use top quality products and to sell with only the slightest margin possible. They can’t all be telling the truth, or prices wouldn’t vary that widely for similar products.
You have to be careful with the “you get what you pay for” saying. In many cases, it’s true (especially when comparing with the cheapest alternative). But in some cases, its all bull. You can pay top dollar for some homeopathic medecine, but it won’t be any better or worse than the cheapest one, since both are simply water or sugar pills.
